meyerc13

Our Council recently sold two camps.  One was used for our Webelos resident camp, the other was used mainly for unit and district events.  The justification was needing more money to improve the camps they aren't selling.  I'm not sure either of these properties was particularly valuable.  One I believe was split between the neighbors on either side.  The other I heard was sold to a group of hunters.  I suspect that one reason that camp was picked was because it's lake is spring fed, and with the water table in that part of our state dropping, so have the water levels in the lakes.  If something isn't done to stop it, soon the camp could find itself without a usable lake.  If I were going to pick one property to sell, that would be the one.

To replace the Webelos resident camp, they are carving out an undeveloped portion of one of our Boy Scout camps.  They are building a new dining hall and campsites.  The dining hall was originally not going to have a kitchen, but then they thought about being able to rent the property to outside groups for events, and with a kitchen they can pull in more money renting out the dining hall out of season.  It's this type of thing that I think our camps should do more of. 

cooking can be used to teach more than just cooking requirements. Webelos/AOL scientist adventure-one requirement is to do an experiment with two different household chemicals. That could easily be done with cooking.

Thanks for another great idea.  There is definitely a lot of science involved with baking, if you get the measurements or temperatures off by too much, the end result will not be what you expect.  There is also a lot of science involved with cooking.  I used to enjoy Alton Brown's show Good Eats, which I'm sure would have many interesting topics for food experiments.

Pie Irons.   "Mountain Pies".  Like these:  https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pie-Iron-Set/26128070     Mine are probably 75 years old already.   Butter/grease each inside, Slice of bread on each side, "stuff" inside, close'm up, over the coals for maybe 10 minutes,  crispy yum. 

I know them well.  Here in Wisconsin we call these "Pudgie Pies."  Some smart folks even put out a fancy cookbook.  I started with two Square irons, bought two more when we were going to use them last year for our Cub Scout fall camp.  After reading Rome's Pie Iron Recipes book, I discovered that the possibilities open up with different types of irons.  I think my next purchase was two round irons, then two double square irons.  Then a waffle iron.  My dad found two old American made square aluminum irons that I added to the collection, and I found two new American made square aluminum irons while on a camping trip recently.  I also picked up a beat up rusty square iron that I plan to bring back to service soon with a strip and reseasoning.

These work great with Cub Scouts because each kid can make exactly what he likes.  If he is a picky eater, maybe grilled chese or pie iron pizzas.  If he has sophisticated tastebuds, maybe a Reuben or Club sandwich.  If he is adventurous, then we can break out the Pudgie Revolution recipes.

My one tip for using these with Cub Scouts is go with one type.  We had a roaring fire at our fall camp, and a mix of aluminum and cast iron.  The aluminum are light enough that the kids can hold them, but not if the fire is too hot for them to get close.  You have to be careful with putting them in the coals, if the coals are too hot you can melt some of the cheap aluminum irons.  The Cast iron can go right into the coals, and retain the heat better if you remove them to check on the doneness.  They are heavy though, so kids can't generally hold them over the fire.  With a mix of irons, it is a challenge to figure out which must be held and which can go into the coals.  I've found the best method is to create a bed of coals, put a grill grate about 6-8 inches over the coals, and set the irons on the grate.  That way you get a more even cook on the sandwich, with less burning.  I flip them every three minutes, and check the sandwich after about 12 minutes.  Usually it's done with a nice golden color, but if it isn't it goes back on for another 3 minute cycle or two.

Welcome to the forum!  It's always nice to have another Cub Scouter join the discussion.  Feel free to ask any questions, share any ideas, and don't forget to Have Fun!

Does this council have other camps?  Maybe I'm cynical, but if so I wouldn't be surprised if the camp goes to the County.  If the Council leaves it open to Scouting groups, it might take away business from other Scout camps.  I hope I'm wrong, but I've heard a few Councils say they would try to pass their camp properties on to another Scouting group, only to see the exact opposite happen again and again.  It's a disturbing thing to see Councils focus more on the money than on the kids - and this goes for both Boy and Girl Scout Councils.

Thanks for the awesome idea!  We made these a few years ago on a camping trip with friends, but I think we tried to use a hot dog fork without much success.  I had no idea what these were called, and had never seen a dowel used, so this is very cool.  Now I have another campfire cooking gadget that I must add to my collection.

This is an interesting question.  For a Cub Scout leader, I think it would be easier to hold year round den meetings if School was in session year round.  Our Pack always meets on Monday nights if the School is open.  So we stop holding Den Meetings in summer, and resume again in the fall.  I can definitely see the challenge though in scheduling camp.  Our Pack historically went to Webelos resident camp in late July, and Cub Scout resident camp in early August.  We've been hesitant to go earlier than that due to a lot of kids voluntarily going to summer school (which runs from June to mid-July).

Living in a cold climate, I can't help but think that we won't see year round schooling because of the tourism impact.  Waterparks, swimming pools, etc. are only accessible for a few months in the summer, and having School in session during those periods of time would mean a huge drop in attendance (not to mention a crazy amount of people during the weeks when all schools go on break).

LOL!  Now those are requirements that I can approve!

I'm a Roundtable Commissioner, and next month's topic is Cub Scouts and Cooking.  I have an idea of the information I'd like to share, but it occurred to me that I'm potentially wasting a great resource - all of you!  So here's your chance... if you were going to attend a Roundtable on Cub Scouts and Cooking, what would you want to see, learn, or experience?

If the logistics work out, I'm going to bring along my dutch ovens, and most likely do a Cobbler (or two) and some type of casserole.  I'm also hoping to demonstrate foil packet meals and pie irons.  Our Big Rock topic is going to be Meal Planning for Groups with Dietary Restrictions (Gluten Free, Lactose Intolerant, and Food Allergies).

So what else should I include?

I think this is a case where your Council knows what they are talking about.  After all, someone at Council hand enters all applications into the system and would know what it will and won't accept.  Leaders can be registered in multiple units; and boys can be registered in Exploring, Venturing, and Boy Scouts simultaneously.  Younger boys can be registered in Cub Scouts and most likely the new STEM Scouts. 

For Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts, it is treated as a transfer application.  The only way to get around that would be a lie of omission, not putting his current unit number on the application.  This might still get caught (same name and same address), and it would definitely be very unScoutlike to try it (a Scout is Trustworthy).  Not to mention it would result in his Scouting record being split between two Scout IDs, which can definitely cause issues down the road.  As a Scout leader, I know that boys who age out and don't join a Troop continue to show up on the Pack roster, but boys who correctly fill out the Transfer application are removed from the Pack and added to the Troop.

This fall will be the third time our District has hosted this type of event.  The first year, it was a somewhat last minute idea that we threw together with a couple of months notice, holding it before Roundtable.  Out of forty something Troops, I would guess that a couple of dozen were present.  We had a good number of Cub Scout leaders attend, and a few Webelos and their families as well.  Last year, the event grew a bit more.  The Troops had a better idea of what to expect.  This year, my understanding is that the team planning it want it to be an even bigger event, with the Troops showing off some Scout skills (the past two years, some Troops had youth there, but many had just adult leaders).

Our District has just under 100 units (Packs, Troops, and a few Venturing and Varsity units), with the majority centered around a metro area in the Southeast portion of the District, and then a string of 1-2 units per town radiating North and West from there.  I'd have to do the analysis to give the exact breakdown of how many units are in the main metro area, but in reality it is those units that get the most out of an event like this, because if you live in one of the smaller towns/villages you don't generally have much choice in a unit unless you are willing to travel 10-20 miles to meetings and events.

Five dollars a year isn't much, less than I pay for my Boy's Life subscription.  I don't have a problem as long as the pricing is reasonable (no more than the Boy's Life print copy per year).

I think the answer will depend on how many boys show up.  We've played a number of Minute to Win It style games, but most of those are aimed at 1-2 players and work best for small, Den size groups.  If you have more kids than that, you'll want to have multiple stations which requires more adult to supervise.

If you have a large group, you could try any one of a number of games.  One I learned at BALOO was Streets and Alleys, which will work if you have a group of a dozen or more.  It's nice because it doesn't require a lot of space (just enough for everyone to form up into rows with arms outstretched).  Another game that works for a group is Farmers and Lumberjacks (one group knocks down cones, another sets them back up).

Don't forget to look through your Cub Scout Leader How-to Book.  Hopefully you or your unit have a copy somewhere.  If you have an old copy, don't throw it out.  I compared the newest revision with the last one, and the vast majority of the book is the same.  I found corrections for a few typos, but nothing substantially changed in the 'how-to' portion of the book.  Lots of great game ideas in there.

Welcome to the forum!  Committee Chair is the most important position in the Pack.  The Committee Chair is responsible for 'hiring' the Cubmaster and other leaders, and is also responsible for all of the behind the scenes tasks that a good Pack Committee should be doing.  Without a good Committee, the Committee Chair can be a very busy person, but with a well staffed and well trained Committee full of helpful parents, the Committee Chair can be a very easy position to hold.  I hope you have a good Committee, in which case this job should be a piece of cake.  If you don't, then I'd urge you to recruit your Committee first, so you can delegate tasks to them to lighten your load.

Good luck, and we'll see you in the Cub Scout forum!

One point about unit equipment and finances... we often hear that the assets and fund belong to the CO.  While there is some truth to this, look at the Fiscal Policies and Procedures for BSA Units.  In there it states:

What happens to the unit funds and equipment should the unit dissolve?
The unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations and shall
turn over the surplus, if any, to the chartered organization or the council, as may be agreed upon,
pending reorganization of the unit or for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of
America.

 

So the funds and equipment can't be used for just any old purpose, they must be held or used "for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of America."  What this means is that a CO can't take the funds/equipment and sell them and use the money; a CO also can't use the equipment for a non-BSA Scouting unit.  Both of those would be violations of the BSA Rules and Regulations (google that if you want to find the source for the Q&A answer above).

So the Pastor can keep the funds and equipment if he wants to be vindictive, but he can't use it unless it is to form another BSA unit.

I'm sorry, Ankylus, but I don't agree.  Most of the girls who are interested in joining BSA are interested because the BSA stresses camping and the outdoors.  Opening up membership to them wouldn't dilute the program for the boys.  If it can work in the rest of the world, it can work here.

I don't disagree that there are differences between girls and boys.  However, we can't discount the fact that some of the differences we see are learned.  Take LEGO.  Both boys and girls like to build LEGO, but over the years LEGO had marketed more and more to boys.  I was in a Target store, and saw a little girl, probably around 7-8, ask her mom for a LEGO City space shuttle.  Her mom told her "No, those toys are for boys, you need to pick something out of the girls' aisle."  Why should a space shuttle be a boy toy?  Don't we have female astronauts?  I think because it was in a blue box instead of a pink box, the mom was judging it unfairly.

LEGO eventually realized they were missing out on half of their potential customer base.  They did a lot of research and found that it is true that boys and girls both like playing with LEGO, but found that the way boys and girls play is different. (It's fascinating research, I'd recommend reading it.)  Yet, even after that research LEGO caught a lot of flack because the new sets they initially released for girls had a pastel color set.  That, I think, was to appease the moms like the one I mention above.  What's interesting is that since the initial waves of LEGO Friends sets aimed at girls, LEGO has shifted the color palette from pinks and purples to include more browns and blacks.  Now that they've broken the learned behavior that "LEGO is for boys," they can begin to stop pandering to the crowd that thinks pink is for girls and blue is for boys.

It is true that we have a generation, or maybe more than one, in which most women didn't go fishing, hiking, camping, etc.  It's a shame really.  Yet when we expose moms to their first campfires and hikes, quite often they love it.  I think the problem is the GSUSA is in a downward spiral of not teaching the outdoors because the leaders (moms) aren't experienced in the outdoors.  With each generation it gets worse.  The problem isn't the girls, its the leaders and moms (I know this is a sweeping generalization, there are many moms and Girl Scout leaders who 'get it' and take their girls outside, but sadly I think they are vastly outnumbered by the crowd that thinks Scouting should be crafts and songs, no hikes or camping).

If anything, I think the BSA is in more danger from those moms than it is from letting girls join.  The more we allow our daughters to miss out on the outdoors, the more likely future generations of moms will fail to understand the importance of getting their boys (and girls) into the outdoors.  If the GSUSA is content to let their camps disappear and their outdoor program with it, so be it.  But then the BSA needs to do something to make sure that the moms of the future have fond memories of the outdoors.

Per the LEGO Study, the memories of the moms will likely be different from the memories of the dads.  The women may be more likely to remember the fun they had with friends in the outdoors, while the men may be more likely to remember the mountain they climbed.  What each gets out of Scouting doesn't ultimately matter, what matters is that they have fun in the outdoors and build those memories, and I'm afraid that won't happen if the BSA doesn't step up.

I'd say, why not?  It's a good way to get those who may have been Scouts re-interested in Scouting; a way to get the word out to non-Scouts that we do cool stuff, and finally sometimes one forum is a good fit for a person and another may not be.

When I started as Cubmaster back in 2013, we had a very small Pack.  A Pack that wasn't much bigger than some large Dens that I've seen.  Other than me as Cubmaster, I had one other Den Leader actively involved in the pack.  That was it as far as leadership.  Several of the age groups had only 2-3 boys, and running separate den meetings with so few boys wouldn't have been much fun for those boys, and would have been a lot of work for the two leaders.  What got us through that first year was the Alternative Cub Scout Delivery Manuals.  They were a great resource for running mixed age, combined den meetings that would result in all of the boys achieving rank advancement by the end of the year.

When the new Cub Scout program came out in June of 2015, these Manuals became out of date.  So far, I'm not aware of the BSA releasing anything official to help small Packs that don't have enough boys to fill out dens for all ranks.  However, some great volunteers have identified this need and worked hard to help fill it.  I'm going to start this thread to share resources I've found for running mixed-age dens or events under the new Cub Scout program.

Note - running mixed age dens isn't the ideal and I think all leaders who need resources such as these know that.  With that said, it is a reality that sometimes we need to make compromises in our program in order for small Packs and Dens to survive.  If I hadn't had the Alternative Delivery Manuals, my 73 year old Pack would have died.  Using these manuals got me through a tough first year, and over the next two years our Pack doubled in size each year and we made it through our 75th Anniversary as a unit.  Small units need a chance to offer the best program they can, and spend less of their time on 'lesson planning' and more of their time on recruitment and fundraising so that they can grow their Packs and outgrow the need for resources such as these.

• Cub Scout Connections:  Finding Common Themes in the New Cub Scout Adventure Program (by Dr. Nisha Zoeller)
  • This is one of the first resources I encountered and maps common Adventure themes (such as Aquatics, Camping, Cooking, etc.) across ranks.  It's a good starting point, but isn't 100% complete.  For example, it misses Cooking and Nutrition requirements in Games Tigers Play, Family Stories, Running with the Pack, Digging in the Past, Finding Your Way, Bear Necessities, and Castaway.
• Den Meeting Plans for Mixed Dens Southern Crescent District, Atlanta Area Council
  • Forum member bbender has been working on Den Meeting Plans for mixed age groups.  At the time I type this, he has Tiger/Wolf Meeting Plans, but is reportedly working on more.
• InSTEP Sam Houston Area Council
  • It looks like Advancement under the new Cub Scout program starts in the October 2015 plans.

That's what I've found so far, if anyone else has more, please share them.  If I run into more I'll post them here.  If anyone is using them, post your experiences, good or bad.  I'm sure those who have created these are willing to accept construction feedback to make them better.

If I might ask another question (or three), how did this group come to exist?  I'm sure if any of us took this idea to our existing units we'd hit some major resistance.  Perhaps if it was new units created solely for the purpose of running a co-ed Scouting program it would be easier to do.

I'm also curious what the BSA and GSUSA (District, Council, or National) reaction was initially, and if that has changed over time as the unit's success is evident.

I also wonder about unit finances, are they tracked separately, or do the Cookie proceeds combine with popcorn sales to provide one large general fund?

So many question, because this idea while so simple is so different from anything we've seen done here in the US, that the logistics of it seem complex.

It doesn't have to be anything super complicated, and if the den leader isn't offering the boys opportunities, the boys are certainly free to approach the den leader and say "Mr. (or Mrs.) Den Leader, in order to complete Requirement 9 of Build a Better World, I need to lead an activity.  I've thought of a great game/project/etc. that I would like to lead.  Can you make time in one of our Den Meetings to do this activity?"

The main point is the boy should be leading the activity, which ideally would involve soliciting help from his den.  Maybe ask Tommy to bring some drinking straws, and ask Timmy to bring rubber bands, etc.  Again, doesn't have to be a huge deal, but ideally would involve the Webelos scout doing the work to bring the activity together (and since we are talking about 'leading,' he shouldn't be doing everything himself but ideally leading others in bringing everything together to accomplish the activity).

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for sharing this.  That picture may be the coolest thing I've seen in a long time.  Maybe instead of fighting with our local Girl Scout Troop over who gets the rooms at the school on which night, our Cub Scout Pack should join with them?  This seems so simple, but yet so radical at the same time.  While you guys seem to have figured it out at a unit level, I'm curious what your units do as far as District/Council events and summer camp?  I don't know of many >Unit Level events or camps that are open to GSUSA/BSA at the same time.

After reading about the latest girl who wants to join the Boy Scouts, Sydney Ireland, two points in her story really jumped out at me.  One, she is 15, so is old enough to join Venturing.  Two, she doesn't want to join Venturing because she wants to be an Eagle Scout.  Then, today, I read a post on this forum from someone who knows a girl in a Crew who wants to earn Merit Badges.

So the question occurred to me, why does the BSA allow boys in Venturing to continue on Boy Scout rank Advancement (including Eagle and merit badges), but not the girls?  Is there anything in either our merit badges or Boy Scout ranks advancement that requires male anatomy?

My personal guess is that the BSA doesn't want to start a turf war with the Girl Scouts... and while they've encroached on their territory with Exploring, Venturing, Sea Scouts, and now STEM Scouts, they can still point to the lack of an advancement system and say, "See, we don't let girls earn merit badges and ranks - we're not trying to run the Girl Scouts out of business."  In other words, it is all about politics. 

I honestly can't think of a single good reason why the BSA has the double standard in regards to Venturing - if you are a boy, you can earn ranks even if you drop your Boy Scout Troop membership, but if you are a girl, sorry, no ranks for you.  I can't recall seeing anything in the ranks that is uniquely male.  Maybe I missed it?

Let me also say that I think this girl's request is silly... why should a girl be able to join the Boy Scouts?  However, at the same time I wish my daughter could be a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout because I think that the Girl Scouts is so far off track with their program that they are blind to the fact that they are catering to gender stereotypes by making their program less and less about the outdoors - while many girls are just as eager as boys to explore nature and have adventures.  I can't wait until she can join a Venturing Crew, but sadly she's six years away from that.  Yet even when she does join, we have another artificial barrier - she can't have the same Advancement opportunities as the boys in the Crew.

Does anyone else wish the BSA would 'acquire' the Girl Scouts of the USA so that we could do away with all of this silliness and just move on with an awesome Scouting program for girls and boys?  From what I've heard the Girl Scouts are struggling a lot more financially than the BSA, maybe a takeover isn't so far fetched? 

Beavah - Assuming this is an LCMS church, it may just have to do with this:  https://blogs.lcms.org/2015/boy-scouts-of-america-update

The synod advised local congregations to "seek local legal counsel and guidance on how best to safeguard themselves legally."  It may simply be that this congregation feels that only church members are fit to serve in Scouting leadership positions given the changes to the BSA's membership policy.

Like you, I don't have the facts, so this is all speculation.  But given the timing, I know that many LCMS churches have made drastic decisions over the past few months as they've worked to process this message from the synod.  My old congregation made their decision back in February, but it is possible others are still working through this issue now, or perhaps the merger of the two churches had something to do with it.

I've read through this whole thread twice.  As others have stated, the Chartered Organization 'owns' the unit.  As long as they are willing to maintain the Unit's charter, and haven't violated any BSA policies, they can pick and choose who they want to be the leaders and there is nothing you or anyone in the Pack can do about that outside of leaving to find (or start) another Pack.  I wish I could tell you something different, but unfortunately those are the rules.  Just remember, if you leave you are leaving the unit numbers, unit equipment, and unit funds behind.  You're starting over with a clean slate, and the CO gets to profit (literally and figuratively) off of your hard work.

Now, with that said, since most Cub Scout Packs run with the academic year, now is a great time to start a new unit.  Annual fundraisers are generally in the fall, so you might struggle with funds for a couple of months but should be able to refill your coffers assuming your Council's annual popcorn sale is held in the fall (which most are). 

As others have pointed out, there are many organizations that are willing to sponsor Scout units, our Pack was chartered by a Kiwanis club.  If I were you, and I say this as a Lutheran, I'd stay away from any Missouri Synod churches.  The synod has basically washed their hands of Boy Scouting, and left if up to individual congregations whose whims can change in a heartbeat.  My former church (as of the time this incident occurred) dropped a long-standing Pack and Troop as a result of this.  While some Missouri Synod churches likely kept their units, there is no guarantee that will be the case if new leaders come into the Church.  I don't know if your CO was Missouri Synod, but if it was that might explain some of what is happening here, they may want to replace the unit's leaders with hand-picked leaders to make sure that the Churches morals are being upheld (because as you know, Church members never sin or act immorally... ).

I realize the situation you find yourselves in is really rotten, and the way they church handled this was very uncool.  It would be a shame if word of this leaked out to the media , I can tell you that my old Church got a lot of negative attention when they decided to stop chartering those units and the media found out.  It even made national news briefly.  The upside of the news coverage is that the unit had somewhere around a dozen COs volunteer to charter the unit, half of which were really good prospects, and one of which is the new CO for the Troop.  In that case, since the Church was dropping the charter, they let the unit take its equipment to the new CO.  In your case, that likely won't happen, but at least some media attention might get some prospective COs to come forward, saving you some time in finding one.

You might also consult an attorney (your Council likely has legal counsel that might do the work pro bono).  Depending on what the letter said and how they said it, they could be on shaky ground legally.  At the very least a retraction or explanation might be warranted.  You may also want to write a letter to the parents reminding them of what you've done for their families over the past year, outlining your future plans, reminding them they are free to choose to stay with the unit or transfer to another, and reminding them that while the Church has the right to remove leaders, that you are still Scouters and have done nothing that violates BSA rules and regulations (assuming that is the case per your comment in regards to Beavah, but I have no reason to doubt you).

Edit:  Of couse, as Scouters we should let the Council handle all requests from the Media... but if some non-Scouter should share the story with the local News stations, the Council can't control that.

Wow... my Pack serves three of the poorest schools in our City.  We have a hard time collecting the $24 from each family.  The thing about this program is that it still doesn't cover the unit's operating costs.  Want to go to a baseball game?  That's another $10/person.  Family campout?  $20/person.  Den supplies?  $12/person.  Special Pack Meeting speaker this month?  $5/person.  Summer Camp?  That's over $150/person.  The unit will still be coming with hat out, and/or still be asking parents to fund-raise.

Listen, my son is in Karate and we pay over $100/month for that, but there the pricing is all inclusive (except for the cost of new belts which thankfully doesn't happen as often now that he is a Black Belt).  Different Packs offer different programs though, and have different budgets.  Our Pack hits fundraising hard and through it we cover much of our costs (but not yet camp and extra-curricular outings like baseball games and monster truck shows).  But based on our FoS donations in the Pack, I can tell you that out of 30+ families in our Pack, less than 20% would have signed up with an up-front fee structure like this.  It's great they offer financial aid, but if it is anything like camperships in our District, they'll only pay a portion and expect the parents to cover the rest.  For many parents, that isn't possible.  Our Pack offers a lot of unofficial subsidization to boys who can't afford Scouting, but we do it at a unit level and are far more generous than our District/Council from what I've seen.