meyerc13

It's the equivalent of a Budweiser-branded water station.

I guess I don't see the problem with this either.  Maybe it's because I grew up in Wisconsin, and it seems like every non-chain restaurant, bowling alley, VFW, etc. has a sign supplied by a beer vendor.  I've seen plenty of fairs and festivals with banners supplied by beer vendors as well.  It's so prevalent around here that I think the sign that I would notice would be the one without Budweiser, Miller, or another beer vendor's logo on it.

With that said, I'm living proof that the signs and logos aren't the reason people become alcoholics.  For the most part, I don't drink.  Maybe 1-2 adult beverages if I'm on a weekend campout with the family (and that's on maybe 20% of my campouts at most), but that's about it.  I rarely have alcohol in the home and don't order it when I'm out.

A logo is just a logo, not a trap set to corrupt the righteous.

I still think that some of this comes back to Program.  If you treat your Webelos as just another den, and do the same old thing they've done for the past three years, no wonder they are bored.  If you start to treat them more like the Boy Scouts they are preparing to be, it's new experiences and new challenges.  Yes, they still come together at the Pack meetings, but again you need to use these older boys.  Have them act as pseudo Den Chiefs to run the gathering activity.  Have them teach a game, song, etc. to the younger boys.

I know that some might say this just makes the Boy Scout program longer... but I don't think that's the case.  There are still many activities that aren't age appropriate for Webelos.  Even though you can start to use Boy Scout methods with the Webelos, when they join a Troop there are still going to be elements of the Program that interest and excite the boys.

As for leader burn-out... I think that's because most units are doing it wrong.  Don't ask the Tiger Cub dad to step in as Cubmaster (my old unit just did that when I stepped down) or Committee Chair.  Four years in one of those roles is a long time.  I think the most logical progression is something more like this:

• Lion - Parent
• Tiger - Den Leader
• Wolf - Asst. Cubmaster
• Bear - Cubmaster
• Webelos I - Cubmaster
• Webelos II - Pack Trainer, Committee Member, or Assistant Cubmaster

That way they can still qualify for the Cubmaster Key (if they want to), but we aren't asking someone to carry the big role for more than a couple of years.  It also helps with transitions... you get a a year to prepare for the big role, and the new guy/gal gets most of a year with a mentor to support them.

The other problem I see with burn-out is the Cubmaster/Committee Chair wearing too many hats.  Too often they are serving as full time Den leaders, and also doing half of the other Committee positions.  When I was Cubmaster, my Committee never filled the Treasurer role, so I ended up doing it (at the time I became Cubmaster, they didn't have a functional Committee, the previous Cubmaster was doing everything.  It was all dumped on me and it took the full three years I was Cubmaster to divvy up the many tasks).  A fully staffed Committee, and a succession plan such as I've laid out here would go a long way to prevent parent burn-out.  In fact, now that I've stepped down as Cubmaster, I'm actually thinking of jumping back into the Pack as a Lion den leader (along with my wife who has a degree in early childhood education).  If you had asked me three years ago... I would have told you that as soon as my son is in Boy Scouts, I'm out of here.  Now that I'm no longer wearing all of the hats, I can pick and choose what I want to do and Cub Scouting is fun again.

Incorrect! 

From the adult application: 

No one may register in more than one position in the same unit, except the chartered organization representative (CR) (who can multiple only as the committee chairman (CC) or a committee member (MC)), and the parent coordinator (PC), who may multiple as chartered organization representative.

 

the Unit commissioner doesn't exist best I can tell.

The general recommended practice is for each Unit Commissioner to serve 3 units.  Sadly, there are rarely enough Commissioners for this to happen.  However, if you don't have a UC for your unit, than the responsibility falls to the District Commissioner.  Seek that individual out, and if he or she doesn't have the bandwidth to help you directly, it is up to him or her to assign someone who can.  If you don't know who your District Commissioner is, go to Roundtable and ask the Roundtable Commissioner.  The DC should be the Roundtable Commissioner's boss (although even more sadly, some DCs don't realize that they are also responsible for Roundtable).

With that said, there may be nothing the UC can do in a case like this, since the role of UC is to be a friend of the unit.  They can suggest and gently nudge a unit to keep them on the track (or get them back on the right track), but they have no real authority over the unit and can't help a unit that doesn't want their help.

As an aside, as a Roundtable Commissioner I suggest to my units to add the contact info for their Chartered Org Rep, Institutional Head, Unit Commissioner, District Commissioner, etc. to their unit handbook.  All to often, only the Cubmaster/Scoutmaster and/or Committee Chair know who these contacts are, so if something happens to one of them (or in cases like this) nobody else in the unit knows who to contact.

In regards to Nylon flags, you might want to read this:  http://scoutmastercg.com/flag-retirement-toxic-fumes/

What an interesting case.  A leader who says he wants things Scout run, but then does just the opposite.  I think Beavah nailed it in his reply - the SM probably has no idea he is doing this.  A conversation might work, but I suspect that video-taping might be more eye-opening for him.  I think his intentions are good... and I agree with some of the changes he made (merit badges were never part of Troop Meetings when I was growing up; the boys should be teaching each other, without the adults getting in the way; and patrols should cook their own meals, even if only two of them are on the campout), but in so many other ways he is off track.

As for Journey to Excellence, sadly it tends to measure the wrong stuff when it comes to Boy Scout Troops.  While it can be a useful health check to some degree, it doesn't do well in measuring how well a Troop is boy-led and how well they use the Patrol Method.

I haven't been here long, but do you guys always take swipes at people's political affiliations? What does this have to do with conservative or liberal values? Most liberals I know hate Hooters for objectifying women. Guess what? It's the same reason most conservatives I know hate Hooters. Why the swipe at political views?

Is this directed at my comment?  When I said "conservative" I was in no means implying politically.  The original term I almost used was "prude" but I wanted to tone it down and chose "overly conservative folks" instead.  The definition of conservative is "holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation."  In my experience, usually when people get up in arms over Hooters it is because they view the company as immoral.  These types of folks feel that all women should be dressed in long skirts with tops that cover the entire chest right on up to the neck - just like in the "old days."  Hence my use of the term conservative - because what I just described is the very definition of conservative - resisting the change in women's attire (and values) that occurred during the last century.

Just for the record, I lean conservative politically on most issues, although not all.  I'll vote for the person I consider to be the best candidate regardless of their political party.  I suppose most would call me a moderate.  One thing I absolutely hate is people who are so far left or right that they couldn't find the middle with a GPS, compass, and wilderness guide.  I miss the days when we could on occasion all just get along and compromise and move ahead.  Now we all seem to be stuck bickering and fighting and trying to undo whatever the other guy or gal just did.  Hence the last part of my last post about Party hats/buttons.  Sadly a larger part of the country would be upset if their children were exposed to the opposite political party at Day Camp than if that Day Camp was run by a work release gang from the local prison. 

So if your comment was directed at me, I apologize if you took offense (although I do find it a bit ironic considering what we are all discussing), which makes me think you've probably been a victim of that which I hate - folks on the far right/left sniping at folks on the other side.  Since I'm in the middle I've witnessed that often enough, but (hopefully) you won't see that coming from me so please try to give any of my future posts the benefit of the doubt because I'm not the type to take pot shots at others over politics.

Here's what I predict would happen if you did this:  After the first day's flag ceremony, one or more adult leaders from other units will complain to the Camp Director.  To avoid controversy, the Camp Director will take your SM aside and ask him to ask the boys not to wear them to flags again, since it offended some people.

I say this because I was at Philmont a few weeks ago and helped staff the second annual BSA National Roundtable (the final project for the Effective Roundtables class).  One of my classmates felt it would be best if we used a little known variation on the flag cermony - moving the flags from the stage down into the audience, in which case the US flag stays on the Right hand side of the audience (rather than to the right of the podium, because by being on the floor the flag is part of the audience).  This was done to make it easier for our Cub Scout age color guard to figure out where to go with the flag (personally I disagreed with this feeling, but I was alone in that).  We had at lest three people who felt so strongly about this being wrong that they complained not only verbally, but also on their comment cards (quite strongly worded in fact).  If, like me, you've never heard of switching the flag like this, see here:  http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfb_disp3.html

My point is... don't mess with flag ceremonies.  Some percentage of Scouters will get up in arms over it.

When I first read this article over the weekend, the first question that came to mind was this:  "I wonder how many of those complaining made a substantial donation to Friends of Scouting this year?"  As you all know, the money to run a Council comes from two places:  1.)Popcorn Sales; and 2.)FoS and other donations.  The $24 annual dues all go to national, not the Council.

The second question that came to mind was this, "How many of those complaining are volunteering their time to staff the day camp?"  I think we all know the answer to that one.

My employer encourages us to volunteer our time with non-profits.  In fact, if I volunteer so many hours each year, they'll make a $500 donation in my name to the non-profit of my choice.  Not to mention they encourage employees to give to non-profits.  If I donate to a bona-fide non-profit, they'll match my donation dollar for dollar.  If you take out the name of the company, it sounds like this employer does the same thing.  A Scout is helpful.  It would seem to me that these women were doing exactly what we encourage our Scouts to do in the Scout Law.  So where's the problem?

To my knowledge, there is no law against short shorts or tight tops in any state in the USA.  This isn't a strip club.  So what's the problem?  Perhaps it would have been wiser had the women left their corporate logo attire at home... then this would be a non-issue because I'm sure in the vast history of the BSA that we've had some former or current employee of this company volunteer their time in some capacity, perhaps even as a paid summer camp employee.  The only difference is that now we know about it.

Thank goodness the day camp wasn't staffed by members of a Democratic or Republican candidates election staff wearing their party hats and buttons... then instead of a small percentage of overly conservative folks objecting to it, we'd have nearly half the country up in arms.

I remember being bullied and seeing others bullied in high school.  It wasn't fun.  Maybe I was lucky, but I can't recall seeing any bullying when I was a scout in the 80's.  Having been bullied, you would think I would be in favor of anti-bullying policies, but in fact I'm really not because from what I've seen, they don't work.

Take the policy above:

• causes... emotional harm to the victim
• places the victim in reasonable fear of harm
• creates a hostile environment
• infringes on the rights of the victim
• causes the scout to feel like they cannot participate

The problem I see here is that this is all about how the 'victim' perceives things or what the 'victim' feels.  If you put yourself into the shoes of the 'bully', what are you not supposed to do?  It isn't clear.  Take the case of the breastfeeding mom mentioned in another thread... she clearly felt victimized and bullied according to her comments, yet I doubt that was what the Scout leader intended. 

You can't make the bully responsible for how someone else feels.  We all need to take ownership of our own feelings.  What you can do is lay out what isn't acceptable behavior.  Something like:

• No hitting, pinching, biting, kicking, grabbing allowed.
• No taking things that don't belong to you without permission.
• No name calling.
• No jokes about other people, religions, ethnic backgrounds, etc.
• No cussing.
• No threats.
• If you see someone else picking on someone, tell them to knock it off.  If they don't tell a leader or you are just as guilty as they are.

Or, as others have said, we could just refer them to the Scout Law.  I think it covers all of this and more.

Just got back last week from a week at the Philmont Training Center.  My wife happened to cut her leg on a nail sticking out of the platform the tent was on.  Instead of taking her medical history at the infirmary, they pulled out her medical form.  Had we been back at home, the ER would have taken a medical history when she came in.  I'm not convinced that the 200 hours spent by Philmont Training Center participants that week filling out their forms was better than the one hour (or less) she would have spent filling out the info at the ER upon intake.

But wait, I'm sure someone will jump in and say, "What if she was unconscious?"  Well, if there was some piece of information on her medical form that was so important that it would have effected her treatment, I'm pretty sure she should have been wearing a medical alert bracelet.

As for the medical form clearing participants before they arrive at camp... there was one woman at the PTC while I was there who was supposed to be on a Trek with her troop but failed the medical recheck at camp and wasn't allowed to go into the back country.  She was diverted to the PTC for the week instead.  I wonder how often something like that happens.

Frankly, this isn't a BSA problem, it's a national healthcare issue.  I know we've all filled out forms just like the BSA medical form time and time again as we visit a new practitioner.  The ironic thing is the practitioners probably have better data than whatever we can pull from the recesses of our minds.  Maybe someday our records will all be digital (they mostly already are) and accessible (this is the ongoing headache) so that we won't have to fill out stupid forms again and again and again.

I realize this is an old topic, but thought I'd put my experience out there for others to read in the future.  My son started the first grade in the fall of 2012, when he was about a week shy of being 7 years old (with an early September birthday, he missed the cutoff by about a week to be a first grader in 2011).  In the fall of 2013, a couple of months into the school year he was moved from second grade to third grade.  At that point, he was working on his Wolf.  As his parent and Cubmaster, I had to decide what would be best for him.  We decided to keep him with his Wolf den, since those boys had been his friends for two years through Kindergarten and First Grade.  Also, this gave him a chance to experience the entire Cub Scout program.  I knew that LDS units do both Webelos and Arrow of Light in a single year, so our plan was for him to work hard once he hit Webelos to finish both Webelos and Arrow of LIght requirements in a little less than a year, so he could crossover into a Scout Troop.

So it went something like this:

• 1st Grade (age 6-7) - Tiger
• 2nd-3rd Grade (age 7-8) - Wolf
• 4th Grade -  (age 8-9) Bear
• 5th Grade - (age 9-10) Webelos I and Arrow of Light, crossed over in April to Boy Scouts after earning his Arrow of Light, at Age 10.

This worked well for our son, but every situation is different.  For Cub Scout leaders who encounter this situation, work with the parents on what is best for the boy.  In our case my son's friends were in his old den, and nobody from his new class was in the next den so it didn't make sense to move him.  For others the situation might be different.

See, to me a family campout would be a totally different thing.  No problem with it there.  Wouldn't expect the mom to go in a tent, to her car, etc.  On a campout, people are eating at the picnic table, in their camp chairs, etc.  People are noisy, so if the kid cries, no big deal.  I don't think that is discourteous.  However, I don't think a Scout meeting is the time or place to be feeding your children, regardless of their age.

Was this handled well?  No, not at all.  Does this mother have a right to do what she did?  Absolutely.  However, I would argue that just because you can do something "legally," doesn't mean you should.  Really I don't see this issue as a question of decency, but rather courtesy.

For example... there is no law against feeding a toddler in a high chair in public, correct?  So would it be okay for me to drag a high chair to the Scout meeting, set it up in the back of the room, strap in a toddler, and "Open the hanger, here comes the plane!"??  I think we would all agree that this could be disruptive to a Scout meeting, church service, etc.  I think we would all agree that if someone tried to do this, we would ask them to stop.

I wasn't there, and I don't know the circumstances, but there are many people who go out of their way to create situations in which they can feel offended or shamed... and then they take it to facebook or the news.  Plenty of parents lack any sense of courtesy.  If I was in a Scout meeting, church, a graduation ceremony, etc... and my infant needed to eat, either my wife or I would leave the room and feed them.  Why?  Because hungry kids cry, and crying is loud and disruptive.  Likewise, when my kids were older and threw tantrums in restaurants, we left and took them to the car.  I missed more then one meal doing this, but my kids learned that if they didn't stop the tantrum they would be removed from the situation, and eventually it only took a warning to stop the bad behavior.

I don't know... maybe this baby is the quietest baby on the earth, and doesn't cry even when mom switches from right to left, but in my opinion certain breastfeeding advocates want to have it both ways.  They don't want to breastfeed in a bathroom (and I can see why not, who wants to eat there?), but at the same time they want to turn every other room on earth into the nursery/dining room/whatever you want to call it.  Just as a bathroom isn't an appropriate place to serve a meal, perhaps a Scout meeting isn't either? 

She picked a project that has deep meaning to her, helping premature babies. She was once one and wants to give the next generation a little tiny lift on their tough fight for life. The only adult to not give her grief so far is the beneficiary of the organization she wants to help.   

I don't know what your daughter's project is, but as a dad who had two kids born (slightly) premature, I am sure that it is a great project.  My wife and I went through all of the childbirth classes in preparation for our son.  Yet when the pregnancy quickly went from normal to trouble over a month before he was due, we found that we weren't prepared at all.  From the emergency C Section, to having to choose between staying with my wife or going with my newborn son to the NICU, to going through the ups and downs of the NICU for a week (we were lucky it was only a week)... it was without a doubt the hardest week of my life.  Anything your daughter does to help those little ones and their families will be greatly appreciated by everyone involved.  Those who haven't gone through the emotional roller coaster of having a newborn end up in the NICU can't even begin to comprehend what that is like, but for those in that situation, any little bit can help.

When I was growing up, I spent several summers working for my grandma helping her clean her attic.  She knew I wanted money for a computer, and she knew the value of working for something you want, so she 'hired' me to help her.  This must have been around 6th or 7th grade.  In hindsight, I would have helped her for free, because we spent far more time reminiscing about things found in the attic than we did actually getting any cleaning done.

Over the course of that summer, I learned that grandmas are people too.  That once upon a time she was a teenager and got into as much trouble as teenagers today get into.  I also learned that she was a Girl Scout leader.  Not the kind of leader my daughter has today, but the kind of leader that would have made Baden Powell proud.  The kind who carried a pocket knife... took the girls camping... knew how to build a campfire.

As I alluded to in my last paragraph, that's not the kind of leader my daughter has today.  The first Girl Scout leader my daughter encountered at her school told her the Troop was full, sorry, you can't be a Girl Scout.  So that year my daughter didn't join.  This year my daughter tried again at the school, and same thing.  So we called the Girl Scout office and they hooked us up with a different Troop pulling together girls from across the City.  So far so good.

Well, when the year started they met consistently twice a month.  Unfortunately it was mostly crafts, socializing, and classroom work.  No outdoors in their program.  As the year went on, meetings became few and far between.  By the time the cookie sale wrapped up a few months ago, the Troop somewhat fizzled out.  The leaders keep talking about having another meeting, but somehow it never quite works into their schedules.

Now I know we have some dud units in the BSA... but so far my family's entire experience with the GS has been poor.  My wife wants to step up and take over the Troop in the fall, and I think one of the two leaders supports that idea, but I don't know how the other leader will respond to this (she's the one who works in the medical field and the reason so many meetings were cancelled due to her shift work).

I don't want to start a flamefest, but are these situations typical of how the Girl Scouts operate?  Surely there must be some good Troops out there?  Why are there so many who:

• Aren't going outdoors
• Only consist of 6-8 girls all the same age (we would call this a den... is this how all Girl Scout Troops are?)
• Turn away girls once they have their 6-8 girls their daughter's age
• Can't be bothered to have a regular, consistent meeting schedule
• Spend more time selling cookies than they do meeting in the year
• Don't seem to care about their girls' advancement

Again, I know we have Cub Scout packs like this, but I know that as a District we know which Packs are in trouble and we use our Commissioner service to try to set them on the right path.  For the Girl Scouts, if this is happening they aren't very effective at it, at least not from what I've seen so far.

To tell the truth I do not see how camping and hiking will help him get all those citizenship badges, but you could fill libraries with all the material I do not understand.  In the long run all that matters is that he have fun.

Like it or not, camping and hiking aren't even specifically part of the Aims of Scouting.  Those are 1.) Character Development, 2.) Citizenship, and 3.) Fitness (Physical, Mental, and Emotional).  The Methods are how we get to those Aims (this is the Boy Scout list, which differs from the Cub Scout and Venturing list):

1. Ideals
2. Patrols
3. Outdoors
4. Advancement
5. Adult Association
6. Personal Growth
7. Leadership Development
8. Uniform

So those Citizenship badges you are knocking are actually more in line with the Aims of Scouting than camping/hiking (the Outdoors Method) or earning Eagle (Advancement Method, combined with Ideals, Leadership Development, Personal Growth, etc.), although one could argue that earning Eagle is actually the culmination of the Aims of Scouting in an individual Scout.

This is one of those twilight zone ares of Scouting... everyone thinks we are about the Outdoors, the Uniform, and maybe Citizenship... but if you ask the BSA we are all about Fitness, Citizenship, and Character.  All the rest is how we get there.

If you compare a modern two burner Coleman white gas to a vintage three burner, the two burner is lightweight.  If you compare a two burner propane to either of those, it is very lightweight.

Lots of good advice here.  I was the quiet, shy kid growing up.  In one of my Freshman classes I was so anxious about giving a presentation that I became physically ill and couldn't go to school that day.  I loved to read, and if I wasn't reading I was probably playing around with my computers (back when they were still rare enough that there was one per classroom and most households didn't have one).  I didn't play sports, except for one year of Soccer where I most likely only made the team because they needed more bodies to fill the field.

For me, Scouting was my one extracurricular activity.  I liked camping and cooking, but more than that Scouting was about hanging around with other guys my age who also liked those things.  Looking back, a few of the athletic types crossed over from Webelos to Boy Scouts, but those guys didn't stick with it until they were 18.  The guys who stuck with the Troop were the oddballs like me.  So I suspect your nephew will fit right in if he likes the outdoors.

I didn't start Scouting with any plan other than to learn more about Scouting and being outdoors.  Along the way I learned a whole bunch of other stuff, some of it I didn't even realize I learned until years later when I looked back.  Somewhere along the way I checked off enough requirements to earn Eagle, and squeezed in my Board of Review right before I turned 18 (we're talking days).

As others have said, don't confuse management with leadership.  I know lots of people who think they are leaders, but most of the time if you think that you probably aren't.  Some people who have worked for me think I'm a good leader, and some of the more perceptive leaders in my organization also noticed that (although many of those who think they are leaders don't think I am because I'm not out there taking credit for what my team gets done, nor am I shouting my praises for all to hear, nor am I stabbing my peers in the back to get ahead.  Apparently some folks think those are good leadership qualities, but luckily most Scouts I've met would disagree.

You sound like a good Uncle, and I suspect some day your nephew will look back on you as a key mentor in his life.  Encourage him to give Scouting a try, but tell him to forget about Eagle.  If he wants to set a goal, make it something like "Go camping every month of the year" or something like that.  If he does that type of thing, the Eagle requirements will sneak in along the way.

I love reading what all of you guys have to say, because it is always interesting, but sometimes you really frustrate me.  If you go back and read through this whole thread, you give contradictory advice.  At one point I was ready to flame @@Stosh because he was chalking this all up to today's 'entitled' kids.  But in his latest post he talks about his experience with disadvantaged kids (which I knew from posts in other parts of this forum, and was why I had typed up a scathing reply to his earlier comment that I never posted).

My Pack serves three of the four most economically disadvantaged schools in our District.  The homeless shelter feeds into one of them.  The others aren't much better.  It's a chore to get boys to my den meetings, much less get kids from another den to our Den Meeting or to an event on a different day/night of the week.  Many single parents.  Many working multiple jobs.  Every year I have boys out collecting donations for Scouting for food, when I know full well that some of that food they collect might end up in their own stomachs.  I'm tearing up now typing this because I am so proud of some of my Pack's families... proud that they put forward their best effort to get their boys to Cub Scouts whenever possible despite the challenges their families face.

I'm also proud of our Den Leaders.  It isn't easy working with some of these boys.  Some boys come from situations that are quite possibly abusive or neglectful (if I could prove it, I would report it in a heartbeat, but from experience I know that Family Services won't take action on a hunch).  Their parents sign them up for Scouts because it's an hour a week they can dump off their parenting responsibilities on someone else.  These boys frequently act out, treating others in ways that they themselves are treated at home.  It's hard enough as a den leader to get all of the requirements of the new program to fit into weekly den meetings (our Pack's dens meet every week that the schools are open and available to us), much less to repeat each requirement two or three times.  But they ,do their best as Den Leaders, sometimes it just isn't enough.

@@qwazse - it seems like you are half saying "work around" the requirements, which contradicts the "you must complete everything" mentality that has pervaded this thread.  At the same time, you say "work for smiles" which is a great philosophy and something I use with my own kids, but honestly for some of the kids in my Pack getting that award is the only thing in life to give them a smile.  In fact, when our Pack handed out 'experienced' uniforms to some of these boys, the grins just for the shirt alone were ear to ear.

Let's face it, the new requirements are desperately in need of a good editor who understands Scouting, and not just from the perspective of uber-successful Packs with 50+ boys and catered Blue and Gold Banquets in the mostly white, middle to upper class, Bible-thumping South.  In some parts of our country we have weather, and that makes fulfilling the new requirements difficult if not downright impossible at times.  Some Packs, like mine, have socioeconomic challenges that make it hard if not impossible to complete the requirements as written.  Maybe the BSA thinks they are being clever with their "Do your best" clause, but clearly some in Scouting have a very strict interpretation of that which means that "Do your best" can't make up for the shortfall in creating/editing the new requirements.

@@heat4212 - trust me, there are some voices here who get it.  We are down in the trenches, working with all age levels of the new program, and have seen that while the new program has a lot of great things, it also has a lot of room for improvement.  Hopefully you won't be too discouraged... luckily it isn't up to them how you run your Pack, and the BSA has basically punted it to the Pack leadership on interpreting what "Do your best" means. 

By the way, if you think this thread is bad... stay away from Internet discussions on uniforming... those threads make me want to scream at the computer screen when people insist that the only correct uniform is the one with the official BSA socks, pants, shirt, neckerchief, hat, underwear, etc.  Thankfully I grew up in a blue collar, low to middle working class neighborhood, and my Scoutmaster and Troop realized that the important thing was the shirt (although some would argue that the important thing is the Neckerchief, and I can see that as well).  Working with the Pack and the schools I do, I will admit that as a Commissioner, District Committee member, and Cubmaster there were plenty of times where all I wore to our Pack meetings was the shirt (despite the fact that I own the whole uniform) - because I know that is all that some of the kids in my Pack have (and even that was loaned out to them by the Pack).  We try to find Neckerchiefs, belts, and even pants.  But in four years of scouring Craiglist, rummage sales, and thrift shops, I've seen exactly one pair of Cub Scout pants and two or three belts.  So we hand out shirts and hope that the parents can afford a Neckerchief, but understand if they can't since that's a $10-$20 annual expense that might be more than they can handle given their family circumstances.

To all of the esteemed Boy Scout leaders chiming in here... again... I love hanging out with all of you, but sometimes you guys really test my adherence to the Scout Law.    I'm generally a pretty courteous and friendly guy, but it's a good thing you can't hear what I yell at the computer screen when I read some of your replies.  But please, keep them coming because I like a debate, but I think we've beat this horse to death and there isn't much more to say on this topic that hasn't been well argued by both sides.

@@heat4212... I can empathize, Treasurer is a really hard role to fill.  When I became Cubmaster for my Pack, the previous Cubmaster handed me the checkbook.  It seems that over several rounds of leader changes, our Pack had consistently been having only the Cubmaster as a signer on the Pack Checking Account.  For four years, I tried to recruit someone to take over that responsibility.  At one point, we had someone volunteer, but after a few months she quit without having done anything more than filling out a leader application.  And I was still stuck as the only person on the account.

Eventually I was able to get the Committee Chair on the account too, and before I stepped down as Cubmaster this year the Pack Secretary was also added to the account.  At least now the Committee is holding the purse strings instead of the new Cubmaster, so we're headed in the right direction, but it was a long painful process (for me!).  Even though I regularly reported to the Committee on what money was coming in and what was going out, I wasn't comfortable reimbursing myself for expenses incurred by me personally when the Pack checkbook wasn't an option.  There are some stores and businesses that won't take a check, so I paid out of my own account.  This past year, before the Committee Chair was added to the account, that number was over $1,000 and I was able to get reimbursed for the first time.  Since our Pack is in a financially disadvantaged area, I know that the Pack needs the money more than I do, so I didn't submit reimbursement requests for the prior 2 years, although I know that each year I was spending at least that much out of pocket without getting a dime back from the Pack.

Good luck passing along your role... if I might suggest check with your chartered org.  Perhaps they have a retired (or even current) Accountant, banker, auditor, etc. who would love to help out.  Compared to what they are used to, the amount of work for the Pack account isn't a lot, but I can tell you from experience that adding it on top of other Pack jobs is a bad idea.  There were times where I was trying to run a Pack meeting and people were handing me wads of cash to pay for something or another.  Since I knew I wouldn't remember later why I had $140 in my pocket, I'd have to drop what I was doing and jot a note if not a receipt.  Honestly, I found that more stressful than not getting reimbursed for what I spent on the Pack.

The good news is that for the first time in a long time the Pack had an awesome popcorn sale, stuck to a budget, and finished the year with a comfortable sum in the Pack account to carry us into the fall.  I'm hopeful that going forward that the Pack can survive without the cash infusions from the Cubmaster.  I'm a little worried though, because my son was one of our top two popcorn sellers by a wide margin the past two years, and he and the popcorn kernel's son (the other top seller) just aged out of the Pack.  Between the two of them, their popcorn sales amount to the buffer left in the Pack account this year.  Hopefully someone steps up.  If not, I know our Pack Committee is strong enough now to come up with alternate fundraising if the popcorn sale doesn't go as well as this past year.

I don't have the latest numbers handy, but in our Council, as of a couple of years ago we were only seeing 45% crossover into Boy Scouts.  When I hear these high percentages of crossovers and high percentages of first year Boy Scout drop-outs, it makes me think that instead of giving the boys and their families a choice, that some areas are just pushing the paperwork through whether the boy and his family are interested in Boy Scouting or not.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think our Council is doing great, why would over half the boys stick with Cub Scouts and then disappear right when the good stuff is starting?  But at the same time, I don't believe 90-100% is believable - at least not on a District or Council wide basis.

We've done a lot of thinking on this topic, because we want our numbers to be higher.  One thing we've observed is that when the boys go to Cub Scout resident camp, they idolize the Boy Scouts who work on camp staff.  So why aren't those same boys interested in following in their footsteps? 

We think a big part of the problem is that most Troops aren't doing what Stosh's has done.  Most Troops aren't reaching out to the Packs.  They aren't supplying Den Chiefs to the Packs, inviting Packs on campouts, inviting Packs to Troop Meetings, etc.  When it comes time for a boy to crossover, he is faced with going from a 'senior' in the Cub Scout program to being a 'freshman' in the Troop.  He probably doesn't know any boys in the Troop if he hasn't been camping with them, attending Troop meetings and events, or had a Boy Scout from the Troop as a Den Chief.  That's a scary prospect for these boys.

So why aren't the Troops reaching out to the Packs?  Well, we've though about that as well.  I think one reason is that in many cases we don't know each other.  We often get a group of parents who join around the same time and fill many leadership roles in the Pack (Cubmaster, Committee Chair, Committee, etc.).  When that group of parents moves off to a Troop or Troops, the next generation barely knew them.  Then, our Roundtable for Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts is separate.  So we have almost no bonds between our Packs and Troops, unless they both happen to be chartered by the same organization.

It's a problem, and I have a meeting tonight to plan out Roundtable for next year and I intend to bring this up again.  I don't know if I can influence change or not, but we need to do more to build bridges between Packs and Troops so that we can make the prospect of crossing over less scary and more fun for the boys.

I was curious what the impact is on a pack if there is no registered Committee Chair or Cubmaster?

I don't know if this was a national thing or not, but for 2016 in our Council all registered leaders needed to have current Youth Protection Training this year.  Unfortunately, many units turned in charters with people listed as Committee Chairs and/or Cubmasters or Scoutmasters who had lapsed YPT.  When that happened, the Council had to reach out to each unit and find out who the new Committee Chair or Cubmaster was going to be since they couldn't register a leader with lapsed YPT.

The good news is that our YPT percentages are up, the bad news is that it took an extra 3 months or so to enter in all of the rechartering paperwork due to the office staff having to chase down all of this.

If a Cubmaster steps down, it is the responsibility of the Committee Chair to appoint a new Cubmaster, or to step in and act as Cubmaster until a new Cubmaster can be found.  If the Committee Chair is also gone, well, then you have an even bigger problem because now there is no backup in place.  As others have stated, you can't recharter without both positions being filled.  In other words, this is a huge problem that needs to be fixed ASAP or soon there will be no more Pack.

As an aside, for this year we're hearing that all Committee Chairs, Cubmasters, and Scoutmasters must have completed Position Specific training as well as YPT.  Wonder how many more we'll lose come recharter time... 

I doubt anyone here cares about "perfect attendance" at Den meetings.  As long as all the requirements have been completed, what's the issue?

We are going in circles on this topic.  As I explained earlier, there are some Adventure requirements that, as written, would mean that a boy who misses a meeting doesn't advance.  One example is the Grin and Bear It Adventure.  If the boy misses the Cub Scout Carnival, too bad, so sad, you can't advance.

Well, guess what, this may be heresy to some, but when that happens (not if, because we all know that it has happened and will happen every year in Packs across our nation) I'm going to come up with an alternate way for the boy to earn his badge, even though the poor planning and editing in the new requirements didn't leave us with an option that doesn't require modifying the requirements ourselves.

If you don't believe me, go search the new requirements for the number of times "with your den" is used without "or family" appended.  I just did a quick search, and I came up with 77 'with your den' that aren't followed by the word 'or'.  Yet 34 instances have "or family" or some variation of that.  I understand that we want boys to experience Cub Scouting with a den, but when a boy misses a meeting it forces us to either withhold advancement or tweak the requirements.  When reasonable leaders say they adjust the requirements as needed because the standard in Cub Scouting is "Do Your Best,"  then everyone here jumps on them with "Well, I would never do that!  Every boy must complete every requirement or they don't advance."  I'm sorry, but that type of attitude is taking the fun out of Cub Scouting. 

We should be looking for ways to make it possible for Cub Scouts to advance if they have done their best, which may mean substituting or modifying requirements as necessary due to illness or personal circumstances.  With the way the new requirements are written, the BSA left us with little choice but to modify them because many can't be completed as written if a boy is sick and misses a den meeting.

To all who might read this now or in the future, remember - you aren't restricted only to your Council's camp.  Our excellent camps are open to anyone who wants to make the drive to East Central Wisconsin or Michigan's UP.  I can tell you that if you and your son are interested in making the trip, we can fit you into a three day session any time from when the sessions start in June (19th-22nd) through the last session in early August (10th-13th).  Our camps are beautiful, and the camp staffs rock.  Anyone in northern Illinois, Wisconsin, eastern Minnesota, or eastern Iowa - I'd say our camps are worth the trip.

If you live further away, check out nearby Councils if your camp experience isn't quite what you'd like it to be.  We have great camps across this country, although not always within your local Council.