meyerc13

I'm a Roundtable Commissioner and we are going to have an end-of-the-year recap of the new program.  I'm curious how other units are doing. 

For my Pack, I think whether boys can complete adventures depends heavily on whether they attend our scheduled Pack Overnighters.  With all of the hiking, cooking, camping requirements, if they aren't attending those events (and their family doesn't camp), then I think it would be unlikly to have completed the required adventures already.

Some of the ranks don't have a lot of outings, to is is possible that they could be done if they completed the requirements I mention above.  I'm working with a Bear Den right now (no qualified Den Leader... the one who would be great can't because of a previous criminal conviction), and we've completed parts of several adventures, but, due to absences and outings we have yet to do, many of the boys haven't completed all of the requirements for those adventures.  I think I'm going to send out a status report for each boy and hope the parents finish some of this at home.

I think that's it exactly... Council events likely have more insurance coverage, and the lawyers didn't feel it was justified for District and Unit events.

I get it, and am frustrated because I was an Archery instructor for Cub Scout Day Camp back in the day.  I can take my kids out and teach them, but can't teach my Pack.  Heck, I've even taught some of the Camp Staff a few things I learned the hard way.

It's unfortunate when lawyers take the fun out of Scouting.  Yet I can almost understand it when I see the trained camp staff making potentially life threatening mistakes.  As much as I wish for online training that would allow units to conduct archery events, I know that eventually someone would get hurt because not everyone has the experience that I do.

We have our Pack's first winter camp coming up this weekend, and had a fall camp back in October.  I can tell you that menu planning in 2016 is a lot harder than it was when I was a Boy Scout in the late 80's.  Now I have to design a menu that will be enjoyed by:

• Picky Eaters
• Vegetarians
• Those on a Gluten Free Diet
• Those who are Lactose Intollerant (unfortunately, this one is me)
• Peanut, Tree Nut, Egg, and a handful of other allergies/sensitivities

It really is quite impossible to make one meal that everyone can/will eat.  With that said, I've tried to design a menu that is flexible, allowing those with one of the above issues to use some of what we make, while perhaps substituting some of their own ingredients where they can't eat what we have.  The one I don't mess around with is the nut allergies... no peanuts on our menu (sunflower butter instead).

So, here is what our menu was for fall camp:

• Dutch Oven Stroganoff (With Ground Beef for the meat eaters, mushrooms only for the vegetarians) with Garden Salad (the really picky eaters, like my kids, were offered plain old buttered noodles without the good stuff added)
• Breakfast Buritos (Onions, Bell Peppers, Mushrooms, Salsa - make your own to your taste)
• Foil Packet Meals (Onions, Zuchini, Bell Peppers, Mushrooms, Potatoes, Ground Beef, Seasoning, Butter - make your own to your taste)
• Pulled Pork with Coleslaw and Baked Potatoes; pudgie pie pizzas (we found the kids liked these instead of the pulled pork)
• Pancakes with Sausages

For this weekend, our menu is:

• Spaghetti (Meat Sauce or meatless), Garlic Bread, and Garden Salad
• Pancakes and Sausages
• Grilled Cheese and Tomato Basil Soup
• Taco Bar (with a Veggie Mix for the vegetarians)
• Oatmeal or Cereal

As much as grilled cheese is knocked above, it is a meal that works for the vegetarians and picky eaters, can be made to work with gluten free bread for the gluten intolerant, and for those of us who are lactose intolerant, I guess it's Lactaid and take my chances because I couldn't come up with any other meals that worked for everyone.  With the addition of a homemade tomato basil soup, I'm hoping we are elevating the meal appropriately.

This is an important topic, one that a lot of Packs are experiencing for the first time with the new camping requirements tied to advancement.  With all of the dietary restrictions that exist today, that we didn't really have 20 years ago, it is beyond frustrating to create a menu that will work for most without having a dedicated kitchen staff making 3-4 options for each meal.  I've found that I do the best that I can, avoid the life threatening allergens, and inform those with 'sensitivities' (like me) so that they can make the appropriate accomodations for their own personal meals. 

What I don't want to do is what our summer camp kitchen staff told our vegetarians last year "For vegetarians, just don't eat the meat."  I try to make the meals something that works for vegetarians (or those who like me are watching their cholesterol) while at the same time offering a variant with the meat for those who don't need to avoid it.

Our Pack Meetings run from 6:30-7:30pm.  It's hard to start much earlier, many adults don't get home from work until 5:30 (or later).  If we tried to move the time up, it would intrude into family meal time.  The experts say kids that age need 10-11 hours of sleep.  even assuming it takes the kids 1 hour after Scouts to wind down and fall asleep, they could still get 10.5 hours if they sleep until 7 am, 10 hours if they have to get up earlier due to parents' work schedules.

As for Lion Cubs... It was my understanding that Lions shouldn't be invited to all Pack Meetings, just major events (Blue & Gold, Pinewood Derby, Holiday Party, etc.).  Our Pack moved our Pinewood Derby to a weekend because it was running too late into the night, so you could do something similar for these big events that the Lions are invited to.

Interesting.  My Council, Bay-Lakes, has been trying to sell Camp Twin Lakes for about a year now.  That shares a lake with Shin-Go-Beek.  It seems like there is a nice opportunity there for someone who has the money to pick up both properties... I know our Council has told us volunteers that they want to sell it to another Council.  When other Councils are selling properties on the same lake, I wonder how many Councils would be interested in buying property... I'm guessing not many.  I'd hate to see two Scout Camps sold to developers... you just can't get that much land if you need it later for Scouting... once it is divided up it will be gone forever.

It's times like this I wish I was wealthy... I'd buy both camps and keep them open for youth groups and Scouting.  I'm afraid that whoever buys it might not be so altruistic.

I am on my district's committee and am included on many of the council's emails about results.....finance, membership, and recently.....unit camping trips....and not just Scout Camp. I was surprised to see the "camping" email because I have never seen that as a focus from the council

True story:  I was at a Scouting event for the top Popcorn Sellers in our Council.  It takes a lot of effort to be a top seller, my son averaged at least 1 hour a day throughout the sale to make that list.  Since Cub Scouts aren't going out without parents, you know the family put in a lot of time too.  These are families who have a lot invested in Scouting. 

We were sitting at a table with families from across the Council.  Through conversation, it came out that one of the families was from the town closest to our Cub Scout Resident camp.  It's a beautiful camp, it was a Boy Scout camp when I was a Scout, and now has theme cabins for Cub Scouts (fort, castle, space station, etc.), running 15 sessions each summer with hundreds of boys per session.  I asked this family if they were going to camp this summer, and they had never been, nor had their Pack!.  As soon as I got home I asked to join the District Camping Committee (on top of the other Scouting hats I wear).

The sad truth is that less than half of units go to summer camp.  In those units, it's probably half the boys who go to camp.  Many units don't have BALOO trained adults, so shouldn't be going on Pack campouts.  Yet the new Cub Scout program has camping, outdoor cooking, hiking, and/or campfires as requirements for rank advancement for all ranks starting at Tiger (who only need to do a 'short hike' and participate in a campfire or outdoor Pack Meeting), and growing more intense each year.

I think it's a step in the right direction, but how are these units going to help their Scouts advance if the units aren't even going to Summer Camp, much less being prepared to hold their own campouts?  It will be interesting to see what happens at the end of this year... will the number of boys advancing drop, or will we see a lot of units advance their boys despite them not having completed all of these requirements.

I would hope that the camping focus is not unique to your District... it should be a major concern in all Districts with the new Cub Scout program.  In my opinion, we failed as a District because we didn't offer a Cub Scout Camporee to help out these units that don't have a clue on how to do tent camping.  True, we have Mom & Son and Dad & Lad campouts that families can attend, but these have no opportunity for outdoor cooking and were scheduled in August and early September, giving newly recruited families no chance to attend.  Hopefully next year we can do better, but will it be too late?  Will many units have decided that they 'did their best' even though they didn't offer Pack campouts?  Will there be any pressure put on units that aren't camping yet advancing their boys when we all know many of the boys aren't doing family camping either?

I was in Boy Scouts back in the 80's, and until my son joined Cub Scouts 4 years ago I had no idea how much Scouting's outdoor program had changed.  Mountain Biking, ATVs, Shotgun and pistol ranges... these are all things that weren't offered locally at Summer Camp when I was a Scout.  I don't think the BSA does enough to get the word out that Scouting isn't about basket weaving any more... it's about adventure that you won't find anywhere else.  Yeah, some kids who live out in the country probably do these things in their backyard all the time, but for the kids living in cities, the only chance they'll get to do all of these things in one place is Scout Camp.  If that doesn't sell Boy Scouting to high school age kids, I don't know what will.

I also wonder if some of our problem is the attrition rate in Cub Scouting.  How many of the kids who join for a year into a Cub Scout Pack with a sub-standard program, and then quit, will ever come back as Boy Scouts?  Hopefully the new program will help somewhat in that regard, but I fear there is still too much difference in quality between units. 

I know it isn't part of the original topic, but since several people have mentioned it I want to respond.  Last year, to earn Arrow of Light you needed to complete 8 pins (3 for Webelos, 5 for Arrow of Light).  Under the new program you have to earn 7.  Is that really such a huge change that everyone needs to be up in arms over it?  To be fair, now the Religious requirements and Scouting knowledge are considered pins, but there are still five others that a boy needs to earn, same as it was before.  The only difference is not earning three pins for Webelos like under the old program.

To be honest, the only change I wish they would make for a new boy who joins an AoL den as their first den is making some of the Webelos required adventures required for AoL instead of electives.  Outdoor cooking, hiking, and first aid are essential skills for Boy Scouts.  I guess this ties my post back to the original question... his new AoL Scout has already done two of the three.  If I were his DL, I would highly recommend he complete First Responder as his third elective.

Other than that, I don't see how anyone can say the AoL is that much less than it was before.  Completing additional elective pins won't better prepare a boy for Boy Scouts, and last year our Webelos Den completed their three pins on a Webelos Pin Day in November and then gave up on advancement for the rest of the year.  For new boys joining that den for the first time, if they go back and do the three Webelos required I mention above as electives I think they will be just as prepared for Boy Scouts as the boys who earned their Webelos badge last year under the old program.

Many years ago, most of the elementary school PTAs chartered Packs.  Then in the early 90s they dumped all of the Packs in protest and the Packs are now chartered by local civic groups, churches, etc. but yet they still typically are associated with one or more schools.

My Pack is tied through its history to one school in particular, but after another school's Pack failed that school started feeding into our Pack as well.  That second school has a Charter School within the school, so depending on how you count it that is either two or three schools feeding into our Pack.

Lately, the District has been sending boys from another school toward our Pack.  We haven't traditionally recruited at that school, and in fact earlier this summer I was told another Pack considers that school part of their territory, which is fine by me, yet the District staff keeps sending boys from that School to me, so I'm not sure what is going on at this point.

I think you have a point about too few kids... I've found that if we can have a large den, we have better retention, but once a den drops to 4 boys or less it is almost a death spiral - you recruit boys but you lose them in a short amount of time.  I think 5-6 boys is the minimum size for a healthy den, and 8-9 is probably the maximum you'd want without additional den leaders.  The BSA really hit it right on with 6-8 boys in a Den.  That's the ideal number, more is too big, and less isn't enough to keep the Den Healthy long term.

So much good information has been give here, I can't do much but repeat what has already been said and assure you that you are not alone.  I'm half a country away from you, but I'm giving a presentation on recruiting leaders and leadership succession at Roundtable tomorrow night.

When I signed up with my son for Tiger Cubs, we joined a dysfunctional pack.  It's taken me three years, but I feel like we've finally turned the Pack around (I'd like to take all of the credit, but it was a combined effort of my wife and I, help from the District Execs and Unit Commissioner, and from a core group of parents who signed up to help out).  We went from a dozen boys and falling to over 40 boys in three years, almost doubling the Pack the past two years.

The difference in my case is that my Pack dumped all responsibility on me as the Cubmaster.  There was a Committee Chair on paper, but no Committee Meetings and I don't think I even met the supposed Committee Members.  So we recruited a new Committee Chair, built a Committee, recruited more leaders... we have a ways to go (next up is more Asst Den Leaders and more Committee Members), but things are on the right track.

You're coming at this as a DL, which is a tough position.  I look at the Lifecycle of a Pack in stages... first you're new and untrained but enthusiastic - you'll have some success, but a lot of struggles.  Then you start learning, become trained and start to implement the proper way of doing things (assuming you make it this far and haven't burned out by now).  Finally you become experienced, and things just work like they should.  I feel like that's where my Pack is right now.  The bad news is that those three are showing a Pack on the way up.  It sounds like your Pack was on the way down.  I like to call the next phase 'tiring.'  The adults who have been around don't want to change, they're probably somewhat burned out, and they will kill new ideas so fast your head will spin around.  The bad news is that I see the next step after 'tiring' as 'retiring,' in which they pretty much don't care what happens because they are on the way out.

You need to short circuit whats happening with the Pack and taking it from 'tiring' back to 'learning.'  Instead of the Pack fading away, you need to kick some life back into it and put it back on the way up instead of on the way down.  Recruiting that many boys to your den sounds like a great first step.

The problem is, how to deal with the old leaders.  As others said, try your Unit Commissioner (if you have one).  Try the Chartered Org.  Find support any way you can.  You might need to shake things up.  I did that when I came into the Pack.  I told the adults that the Pack was dysfunctional, not because of anything the boys were doing, they were great (advancing, going to camp, volunteering).  We were a dysfunctional unit because of the role the adults are supposed to be playing in helping the Pack go.  Some adults didn't like to hear it, but to be honest it was probably for the good of the Pack to lose a few people who weren't willing to change (their boys stayed in Scouting, just not with our Pack).  Other adults have stepped up and now our Pack is the better for it.  If I had continued to try to do everything myself, when I left the Pack would likely have crashed and burned.  Now, I'm about ready to hand over the Pack to someone else (in the Spring), and I'm confident they have the right structure now to keep heading in the right direction.

Right now you really need someone, be it Cubmaster, Committee Chair, or Chartered Org to put a stop to unregistered Committee Members.  If someone wants a voice in running the Pack, they need to step up and fill out an application.  If they aren't brave enough to do that, their vote doesn't count.

Good luck... I can understand why you don't want to leave.  I had an option when I joined our Pack 4 years ago.  There was one healthy Pack associated with our Church (healthy except that I've since found out they don't camp... at all), and another Pack that was associated with the public school my son attends.  I picked the unhealthy Pack and decided it was worth saving.  There were many times I doubted that original decision and came close to merging our Pack into the other.  I'm glad I didn't, our Pack celebrated 75 years this week, and I'm glad I wasn't the Cubmaster who let it die at 72 years old.

Hedgehog,

I want to thank you for your posts, I have found them very informative.  I'm not an attorney or an accountant, but I studied quite a bit of criminal law in college.  My take on this is that the tax code leaves a lot of room for interpretation in this case.  

I think in some cases you could debate on whether the benefit is to the unit or to the individual.  Is it in the unit's best interest if all boys go to camp?  I think you could argue yes on that point.  However, it could also be considered personal benefit.  But as others have pointed out, so could the unit purchasing awards.  How about sending a few boys to Philmont... while it could certainly be considered personal benefit, isn't it also to the good of the unit if those boys come back with better skills that they can pass along to others in the unit?  When my company sends me to training, they put out $3000 or more just for the course, not counting travel expenses.  Is this all that different?  The problem with vague laws such as this is that too much is open to interpretation, and that interpretation can happen at many levels.  One IRS agent might rule differently than other, and the judge might have a completely different opinion on the matter.

Then there is the question of how substantial is the benefit.  For my unit, we feel that covering camping is an integral part of our mission.  Yet I'd definitely stay away from allowing boys to buy personal backpacks, knives, tents, etc.  I think the IRS would frown on that. Buying gear for the Patrol or Unit should be fine, but anything the boy can take with them when they leave a unit is probably putting the unit at risk.

Overall I think the lesson to be learned here is that there is risk to units, chartered organizations, Councils, and the BSA.  I think we need to all examine how we handle ISAs and determine how much risk we are willing to accept.  If your Council or CO isn't willing to accept the risk, we need to live by that decision.  There are some definite danger zones that I think we should all avoid:

• Allowing the purchase of personal equipment
• Allowing a Scout to 'cash out' when leaving a unit
• Transferring funds between two units with different Charted Organizations
• Allowing too high of a percentage of fund raising to go to the individuals
• Using the money for non-Scout related purposes

Again, IANAL, this is my personal opinion only.  Consult an attorney and make your own decisions on what you are doing or plan to do.

Yes they can.  I can't find an official source, but I did find something in the Guide to Advancement that is close:

A Webelos rank earned as of June 1, 2015,
and moving to Arrow of Light may also
substitute any of the new program WEBELOS
required adventures for the three required
electives of Arrow of Light

I know I've seen it somewhere, but can't find it in the handbook, Leader's Guide, or FAQ.  I'm fairly certain that the version I saw was "For boys joining Scouting in the fifth grade..."  I'll keep looking and will post back if I find it, but to be honest the BSA doesn't track Cub Scout advancement that closely and as you can see above this is considered acceptable in at least the one case, so why wouldn't it be in the other?

Found it on Slide 15 here:  http://www.scouting.org/filestore/program_update/pdf/2015_Program_Change_Overview_Cub_Scouts_Boy_Scouts.pdf

Boys joining Cub Scouts after May 31, 2015 and meeting the qualifications to join an AOL den

• Shall utilize the new program requirements and handbook
• They MAY substitute any of the new program WEBELOS required adventures for the three required electives of Arrow of Light

From the FAQ:

Q: How should recognition take place?

A: Boys must be recognized as soon as possible after completing an adventure – and a badge of rank. Pocket certificates are available as well as devices for adventures (adventure loops and adventure pins) and cloth badges of rank. Your pack may establish a practice that makes sense for its members. Two possible examples:

• Presenting the device (adventure loop or adventure pin) at a den meeting immediately after completion, and presenting pocket certificates at the next pack meeting

• Presenting pocket certificates when the award is completed and bestowing the device at the next pack meeting

In any case, no boy should be required to wait more than two weeks to be recognized and to receive his award.

You can find that restated in this Roundtable guide from February:  http://www.scouting.org/filestore/program_update/doc/201502_Topic_Guide.doc

Wow, sounds like an ugly situation, especially with the DL's husband being the chartered org rep.  The chartered Org picks the Committee Chair, the Committee and Chartered Org need to pick the Den Leaders based on the Cubmaster's recommendation.  That's the way it is supposed to work.  Since the Chartered Org rep isn't likely to pick your side on this, I'm afraid you might not have much leverage unless someone else in the chartered org is sympathetic to your case.  You could always threaten to quit since the Chartered Org Rep is undermining what you are trying to do with the Pack, but is that really in the best interest of everyone?

I hate to say it, but this sounds like a problem that will quickly resolve itself once the DL's kid crosses over.  Yeah, it isn't a great situation for the new Scouts in that Den, but if that's the way their parents want to go, what can you do about it?

Good luck with whatever comes out of this.

Also, I would like it if the tasks were separated for tracking a little better.  For example, this task (part of Cast Iron Chef) included the menu planning AND going shopping.  So what do I do?  We menu planned at the last meeting, then went shopping a few days later.  So some have only finished half, so I cannot mark it as complete.

It isn't complete.  Those who didn't show up for the grocery shopping will have to plan a menu for their family and do the shopping.  We're planning on doing the grocery shopping trip on a normal meeting night, luckily for us it worked out because our meeting location wasn't available that night so we had to either cancel or do an outing.  Our Bear den will join us at the grocery store since they have a similar requirement.  Our AoL den will do a Troop Visit that night.  Our Tiger and Wolf dens get to visit the police department (our Bear and Webelos did that two years ago). 

I haven't had to deal with this issue yet, but our Pack has been growing and I can see this becoming an issue in the near future.  I've been putting some thought into it, and here are a few things I've been pondering:

• If the parents are interested, have the two dens meet on different nights.  We've lost some Scouts because they have a conflict on our traditional Den Meeting night.  Having a second night might be a recruiting/retention tool.
• Ultimately, see if the boys/parents have a preference.  This could backfire if they all want to be in one den, but at the same time if two friends want to be in the same den (one old scout, one new scout), you'll probably lose one or both if you force a split.
• Give the Dens some identity beyond just a Den number.  Den yells/cheers, etc. can help them establish their own identities.
• I like the idea of having one person plan the meetings for both dens, and the other den leaders execute the plans.  This could really help the new Den Leader since many are overwhelmed at first and don't know where to start.

Our Pack covers two schools.  Over the past few years, we've had good luck sending fliers home at one school, but weren't allowed to at the other.  One school told us we could put up posters in the school, but since many Kindergartners can't read, and even if they could aren't the best at remembering dates/times/details, that wasn't terribly helpful.  So rather than give up we decided to get creative.

We staffed tables at the School Registration days/Back to School Nights.  We also were able to obtain a list of boys and their addresses from the school district and used that to send out a flier directly to their homes.  This wasn't cheap, but it did get the word out.  Our District staff did Boy Talks.  Finally, on the day of our recruitment my wife and I handed out more fliers to kids at they were leaving the playground.  Since we were on the public sidewalk, the school can't say anything about it.

This was a lot of work, but we added boys to almost all of our dens, including a dozen new Tiger cubs.  Considering in 2012 when my son joined the Pack they recruited 2 Tigers and nobody at any other age level, I think we did okay.  Despite the challenges, we doubled from around 10 when I took over as Cubmaster in 2013, to around 20 in 2014, and now 40 in 2015 with a few more stragglers I think we'll pick up in October.

I'm curious, has anyone been able to complete the Scouting Ideals course?  I've tried going through it five times, and it always tells me that I haven't completed it, although I have.  It seems like the last slide doesn't register as complete even though there is nothing left to see/do.

Also, I've noticed that with the modules currently, there, you can't complete any of the tracks (Den Leader, Cubmaster, Committee Member).  However, there is a lot of good information there, and even though I'm a Roundtable Commissioner and I've been to a ton of training and completed Position Specific under the old program, I was still able to learn one or two things I hadn't heard before.  I like how the various courses count toward multiple tracks, so once you've done one, you are already partly trained in the others.  It should be easy for a Den Leader to move to Committee or Cubmaster with only a few additional courses.

The official recommendation was to award either the card or the pin/loop at the Den Meeting immediately upon completion of the adventure, and award the other at the Pack Meeting.  If your Pack Meeting is the week after you complete the adventure, you could do both at the Pack Meeting, but you shouldn't wait longer than that to give some type of immediate recognition.

Overall I like the new program.  I'm a Roundtable Commissioner and have become our District's unofficial expert on the program changes, so I've done a lot of studying of the new program at all ranks.  I would agree that out of all of the ranks, the Wolf adventures are the weakest.  For some reason many of them don't have an outing in the Den Leader's Guide.  Some have ideas for an outing, but no specific meeting plan.  I've talked to my Wolf Den Leaders and let them know that they may need to supplement the meeting plans a bit.

On the other hand, the Bear rank has some great adventures.  It's definitely my favorite out of the non-Webelos ranks.  They have a chance to build a robot hand... how cool is that? 

I've heard from a few of my den leaders that there is too much stuff in the meeting plans.  I'm going to have to make sure to coach them to keep an eye on which activities are required and which can be skipped.