WestCoastScouter

From my personal experience I think that it is generally a VERY BAD IDEA to have the CC and CM/SM to be a husband and wife team.

I was in a pack where the CC and ASM were husband and wife, and the CM and Outdoor Activity Chair were also husband and wife. These two couples became dictators and refused to listen to anyone else. They referred to the unit as "their pack" and even met on their own in what they self described as a "Executive Committee" that was above the Pack Committee. Unfortuneately, since there was no oversight what so ever from the Charter, who seemed to not even know that they chartered a unit... (a small local church who never came to anything)...

It got to the point that this "Executive Committee" on their own "removed" two Den Leaders who questioned some of their actions, and expenditures of pack money. When these "removed" DL's demanded a meeting with the church pastor and the Council Executive, this "executive committee" just asked the two DL's to quietly depart, which they did, along with 13 other families to a different Pack.

So, long and short.... my advice... too much authority in two few hands, is not a good idea, and the more involvement from different minds will keep such totalitarian regimes from coming into power.

We customized our "pin" and Pack info when it first came out almost a year ago.

We've received not a single hit, or recruit from it.... Seems to be a failed idea...? I have not heard of any units getting more than 1-2 recruits this way.

In response to BadenP's comments, and also those like him who do not like the ostentatious display of Scouter Knots... I think I have a different perspective.. to here is my 2 cents.

Can a three or four row (of Knots) Scouter look like a South American Generalisimo... yes.. I suppose. However, as a new Scouter (just under two years)and slowly being involved helping with District/Council activities - I have seen these men/women with 6+ knots as being the most involved individuals... they seem to be the ones that do the majority of the Council/District work. Esp. those who have long continued in Scouting beyond their son's involvement. Maybe to summarize my view... "it takes a great deal of dedication to earn those knots."

I have yet, in my brief two years, to meet any Scouter who is "just trying to earn knots". Now granted I do have two knots... (AoL & DL)... and I saw the leadership knots as a achievement goal to reach... an encouragement or incentive to reach a certain level.

Also, I think of it this way... It is simply human nature to be appreciated and to want to be recognized. We recognize "Teacher of the Year"... "Police Officer of the Year", ect.

As much as we feel humility is a more dignified way to be recognized, I truly feel that 99% of us do appreciate being recognized and respected for the work we have done. If knots keep Scouters motivated and active with the boys and BSA, then it is a good thing.

Our pack actually has considered getting a custom neckerchief, such as the blue and gold one that has the different paw prints, boot print.

http://www.stadriemblems.com/scouting/neckerchiefs/index.htm

We are thinking that it will mean that the boy can wear the same necker for all five years... vs. buying a new one every year.

But we have not made up our minds yet.

I have a group of Webelos II's that soon will be moving to a Troop, and I've been asked to come in as a Asst. SM to be an adult that they know. (I'm their WL).

So we are talking about the changes coming up in the next few months, and looking at buying tents that they boys can own themselves.

What tents are most durable, and good for both backpacking and also car camping.

Is there a make that seems to be more popular then others due to their warranty, ect ?

ADDITIONAL COMMENT FROM ORIGIANAL POSTER

... I am BALOO and IOLS trained...

The issue is can I take my den out, as long as I have two deep leadership... Webelos... for weekend campout at campground, without each boy having to bring a parent.

Also, my pack does not have good numbers of boys attending Resident Camps... mostly due to cost of boy + parent = expensive for many families. But could "Webelos Billy" come along, so long as we maintain two deep leadership at our site at the resident camp ?

Thanks everyone !

Couple of questions ??

(1) If my Webelos den goes camping... must the boy's parent also attend ? or must we just comply with two deep leadership, (and Webelos must only sleep with their parent or with another scout/or alone.

(2) For Webelos-ree summer camp.... must the boy's parent attend ? or it is up to the Council that has the camp ?

So I've read the entries here, but I have not been able to find where the requirements are listed? Any link to the requirements ?

Our Pack is hoping to add 10-15 boys between January and June... How can we do it ?

We have sent out flyers to schools for boys to come to events, but with little sucess. We have done Raingutter Regatta, invite a friend night, bowling, roller skating, bike rodeo, ect... but with few sign ups...

Does anyone have some good suggestions on how to get boys to join a pack ?

POINT OF CLARIFICATION BY ORIGINAL POSTER:

We still have not heard from the family, and all the popcorn that had been "ordered" by this scout/family has been sold off.

In our town there are 6 packs. So I did discuss with our DE about what to do when a customer contacts the district office..? The DE said that they would reimburse from Council funds any customer who comes in and claims to not have received their popcorn. She said that it is very rare over the years for anyone to come in, but it does happen at times.

And we do not know if they collected any money from customers or not.

I think we have learned from our mistakes...

(1) Dont take an order without and order sheet.

(2) Dont take without the money up front, unless you really know and trust the family.

This was our first year of selling popcorn, and I guess it was a learning year.(This message has been edited by westcoastscouter)

John in KC: But the problem is that we dont know who the customers are? So we cannot deliver them their order. The family never gave us their order sheet.

We made 5 phone calls, 5-6 emails over the last 4 weeks that the popcorn has been sitting at our coordinators home.

We did involve the DE, and our UC. During a meeting they both advised that we give the family a deadline to pick up their popcorn... Which we did.. giving them 4 more days. Its' now been a week later and they STILL have not called, nor have they been seen at any den or pack meetings.

So we cannot just hold onto this popcorn forever. I think that we made the mistake of fronting their order, but once the popcorn is in and we've notified everyone... how many more weeks or months should we have to wait ?

UPDATE TO THE ORIGINAL POSTING:

HERE IS WHAT FINALLY HAPPENED:

The family had sent in their "order" of what they had "sold" by e-mail to our popcorn coordinator. (It was not an order sheet) It was past the deadline we had set, but we had the email of what this boy had "sold". (But no money). The pack fronted the money for any boy that did not turn in their entire amount.

It was told to the parents that we needed all the money up front. However, this is our first year of selling popcorn in an organized effort. So our popcorn chair allowed this boy's order to come in via email... just telling us what they had "sold". No customer info.

Over the weekend another boy volunteered to pick up and sell the popcorn, he set up a table outside a grocery store for 2 hrs, and told the $300+ on his own.

Still no word from the MIA family about "when" they will come get their order (which is too late of course). If they do call, then we'll tell them that they need to go back and return the money to any customer who ordered from them. We assume they have their own order sheet...

Live and learn: Next year... no fronting a scout's order.

UPDATE ON THE SITUATION:

The Committee Chairman sent an email to the family informing them that if they did not pick up their popcorn that the Pack would sell it to recoup the Pack's money. The CC also called and spoke to the nine year olds mom and dad... telling them the need to pick up the popcorn.

Result: Family failed to make contact with the pack popcorn coordinator... The popcorn is going to be sold by other boys. Meanwhile, the boy has still not registered and recharter is due next week.

We customized our pin as soon as it came out.

As of today, Dec. 6th - we've had ZERO hits.

I think it's a nice idea... but I dont see any results.

So we have a boy, age 9, that recently transfered to our pack, and was eager to go out and sell popcorn. Our pack "fronts" the popcorn purchase, and then boys reimburse the pack after delivery.

Unfortuntely, this boy has been AWOL from both Den and Pack meetings. He owes the pack almost $400. We've twice spoken to the mom by phone, and she "assures" us that she'll turn in the money "tomorrow", but nothing happens.

We also do not have his $15 for his re-chartering. To compound things, we've learned that the family has been having financial problems...

So should the CM and I be concerned ? and if so what should we do ? Any suggestions ?

I agree with Jamist, that DL's who dont work together can ruin a pack. I also joined as a parent a "large and popular" pack in our area. However, the leaders that had built this pack had left the year before, and the reins of leadership was given to a Webelos DL who was leaving with his son in less than a year.

The result, all he cared about was his son, his son's friends, and no one else. No organization, no planning, and no partisipation being allowed by anyone else. That year was a disaster, and a once proud pack of almost 90 boys slowly fizzled to about 35. At the end of the year about 10 families up and transfered to a new pack that was run by mutually partisipating and involved parents.

Put in most basic terms: Arrogrant and selfish leadership will destroy a pack...

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I agree that more information is needed, as to what this DL does that is "out of step" with the rest of the Pack.

A good analogy of a pack is our Federal System of Government, the Dens are rather autonomous and able to set their own schedule and agenda, so long as within the BSA guidelines, and have regular den meetings, and boys are both advancing and having fun.

However, if this is not taking place... i.e. My pack had to replace a DL who just "disapeared" for 3 months and is still whereabouts unknown, then the CC, CM and COR (and maybe even the Pack Committee) should meet and discuss finding a replacement. The

I never became an OA member so I don't know the procedures.

If someone was an OA member as a scout some 20 years ago, and is now back in scouting... due to his son becoming a cub scout...

Then could he just join the local OA Lodge ? or must he be somehow request and then have to be approved for membership in the new lodge? Or does one just "transfer" his old membership?

Thanks for your help...

I would like to get some imput from other - more wiser Scouters...

We have two cub scouts who live in a single family home. Last year we found donors to pay for her two son's registration fee. (They are age 7 and 8) We also found used scout uniforms for them, books. They have been sporatic this year in their attendence, and mom has never volunteered to assist on any event. They also did not sell any tickets for our pancake breakfast, and sold no popcorn last year.

We just did another fundraiser and they sold no tickets. Yet, last week she told her Den Leader that she will again need financial help to continue this year.

When the topic was brought up by our Committee, there is a split of opinion. Some believe we should be charitable and simple pay for her fees. Others believe that we helped her when she first joined, and have given the mom the ability to help the pack raise money, which would make it easier for the pack to support them.

Should we help her, or tell her to sell popcorn to pay for her fees? FYI: Both her sons are playing sports (that normally cost registration fees)

I would agree that you dont' want to penalize a den.. the boys can earn the National Summer Den Award, and the Quality Den Ribbon due to a certain % of partisipation.. One den in our pack at twin boys, but mom moved 30 minutes away, and decided to drop out of scouting all together. (not transfer)

So those two boys are on our charter until Dec. 31st, 2010. But as to that Den... their names were taken off our "Roster" that is given to the parents and pack leaders.

Why is there a need to put a boy, who is completely gone from a pack, to be "placed" in a Den ?? They are on the charter, but not in a Den for purposes of being an partisipating member.

Now... again I say this only as to boys that have moved away, have actually said they quit...ect. This would not apply to occassional attending cub scouts.

Does anyone keep a boy in a Den's roster, even if he has moved away, or expressly said they are quiting? What is reasoning to do that ?

I think I know what snow white is saying...

We have two Wolf Dens... and we try to keep them even by number of partisipating scouts. It would be illogical to have one den with only 3 active and 3 drop out boys assigned to them, and another den with six active boys...

So I understand having them on the charter until the next re-charter period... but if they have clearly stated "We have quit" then take them off that Den's roster...

I mean... BSA is not that "exacting" that a cub scout whose parents have said "we quit" to be put into a den? Are they?

Are we that much sticklers that we have to put drop outs into a den ? Why not make a "On the charter - but dropped out" list... Call that list a "Den" if you really want...

Is that seem ok ?

Thanks for imput..

Its just confusing when you're filing out performance questions, and how do you count people who have up and quit. I've been told that they stay on the charter till the new charter is completed... only then do they drop off...

But also that they are no longer on our internal roster of partisipating boys.

So thank you for your imput.

For a Den to earn the Summertime Pack Award, knots, and some other awards... there must be 50% partisipation, or completion of their badge, or 60% of boys moving into Webelos...

Now... like probably most Pack & Dens... there are some boys that are signed up, and never seen from again... and some boys that show up maybe every other month for a "fun" event.

For those non-partisipants - I dont think that its fair to include them in your percentage numbers. I had nine "registered boys" in my den, and two parents told me (after I called to encourage their attendence) that they were dropping out. That left me with Seven.

Another boy just showed up for PWD, and a Swim Day at the city pool... that's it. (again I called to encourage him to come).

So that left me with six boys that truly partisipated... of those remaining six, I had 4 that recieved their Bear rank.

Therefore... here is my question for discussion as I apply for my Den Leader Knot:

Is that 4 out of 9 ?

or 4 out of 7 ?

or 4 out of 6 ?

This issue is is relevent to other Pack awards that require partisipation... (ie. Quality Unit Award) do you include known drop outs in the stats ?

We did a game and movie night... games out on the grass, then pizza... movie... with popcorn and icecream... for $5.00 per scout or sibling... parents could drop off at 6:30 pm and pick up at 9:30... so they could go out. We had 5 adults volunteer, and had 12 scounts and 22 kids total... so just about 1/4 of our boys... Summer is just tough time to get boys together..