Weekender

I have to go along with what appears to be the majority thus far. Boys and girls have different interests much of the time and designing a program to suit both would be difficult. Additionally, I think trying to handle coeds as they hit puberty would take so much energy there would be little left for running the program. I think it could be done but the program would be quite a bit different from what it is now. I vote No until they reach venture age.

As always there is a lot of very good advice on the forum. For those of you working with new boys in your troop and not sure what to do the following URL has a campout plan that is a good jumping off point. Obviously it will not be a perfect fit for everyone or every troop but it's a place to start. We are modifying it fo rour first campout with a new boy patrol and incorporating quite a bit of older scout participation. http://www.usscouts.org/boyscouts/BSA101.htm

I'm a firm believer in the program being able to hold boys until they are 18. I know not all of them will stay but I would caution against moving them too quickly when they are young to avaid losing them before they make eagle. I've heard one person go so far as to say that he wanted to get the boys to eagle by 15 because they will leave by 16 (what a sad statement). As BOB White said this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don't plan on having a program for 16 and 17 year olds then you won't have a need for it because they WILL leave. We adults (leaders and parents alike) have to instill in the boys a desire to complete there eagle and remain in scouting because it is an important program.

Summer Camp... Two scouts go into the shower area and as they are starting to get wet one says to the other, "Man! You sure are filthy" the other replies, "Yeah, I didn't get to come to camp last year"

Evmori, I agree with you that far too much time is spent on this and similar threads...Rooster7, I also agree with you that as long as those trying to change the program continue to argue these points, we who want to protect the program from what we see as corruption need to continue to stand up for our beliefs. From what I have read in previous posts from both of you, I'm glad to be in the same organization you are in. I don't always agree but you both seem to have good hearts. I'm not always as eloquent as I would like to be and I am sure I have offended some because I have such strong feelings on this and other subjects. Please, both of you keep working for what you beleive in...we're better off for it. God Bless.

We have just added 7 new boys to our troop this week. We have been a small struggling troop for the last two years and this is a real blessing for us. I have an idea that I want to run past y'all as I value your opinions. Here's the idea. I plan to run it past our PLC too. I'd like to do a "scout blitz". This would be a two meeting event taking 20 -30 minutes per meeting held in the gym of the school where we meet. At the first meeting I want to have the older scouts set up one station for each of the scout requirements that we can do in this fashion (see list) Station 1. Pledge of allegiance 2. Scout salute, handshake, sign 3. Tie Square knot 4. Scout oath 5. Scout law 6. Scout slogan, motto, Outdoor code 7. Describe the Scout badge On this first night, the new scouts would move as a group from one station to the next and be told what they are expected to do to complete the requirement. We will explain each requirement and practice the Law, oath, motto, knots etc. Then they have a week to practice for the "big event" On night two, we will set up the same stations but may have doubles depending on the number of older scouts available (eg. we may have two Scout Law stations). We'll take the new scouts and put them in the middle of the basketball court with the stations around the edges. The object will be for the new scouts to run to a station, perform the requirement, and get checked off by the older scout. I what to make it a contest to see who can become a scout the fastest. The other requirements (excluding SM conference) will already be taken care of. When the scouts are all signed off we will have the SM waiting to see them in the order they finish to sign off the SM conference and at the end of the meeting we will give out the scout patches. I think this could be a fun and memorable event for the boys and give them incentive to study. Do any of you have any reservations about doing something like this, or know of any rules we need to be careful of, or anything that might make it even better? Thanks for the help YIS Weekender

Yes I was refering to your post. Until now our ASPL has fit the mold that you have described but I do think it is time for him to take on some real responsibility. Thanks for the great idea.

They are most assuredly mistaken! I, as a Christian, hold no hatred toward homosexuals but I do feel they have chosen to pursue a practice that is immoral. Whether you call it a choice, a genetic predisposition, a desease, or a ham sandwich is not relevent. because even if it is not a choice to have the feelings (which I do not accept as fact) It IS a choice to pursue them and engage in the acts. Homosexual behavior is an abomination to God. As with someone trapped in the homosexual lifestyle, I would feel compasion toward someone who, say, was addicted to gambling (some claim that's not a choice either) but I would not allow them to be involved in a boy scout troop. It comes down to role models being human and being allowed to make a mistake and be forgiven WHEN THEY'VE CHANGED THEIR BEHAVIOR. Some may argue that homosexuality is a condition and therefore can't be controlled...Homosexual behavior, however is an activity and can be controlled just as some priests can maintain celibacy. I would not want to be part of a troop where the scoutmaster was homosexual, the treasurer was an addicted gambler, the Outdoor activities director was agoraphobic, or the first aid provider was addicted to pain killers. There are simply some people whose personal life choices or lack of self control make them unsuitable to act as scout leaders...doesn't necessarily make them bad people...just not good scout leaders.

I've found I have more hygene problems on non-backpacking trips...something about a long hike seems to make the scouts more tired and less messy. The last time I had a problem was on a trip when we took chuck boxes. We had been mountain biking most of the day and had made dinner late. At about around 10pm (dark obviously) I decided to check on the scouts campsite as some were starting to head in for the night. I found the chuckboxes were left in terrible shape...dirty dishes, trash (both in and around) silverware half buried in the dirt around them. (these were mostly 14 and 15 year olds who definitely know better. I went and got the SPL and took him on a tour of the site pointing out everything I found that was wrong. Then I told him to get everyone...even those who had already headed for bed (one of my own sons included) and that no one was to do anything else until the site was right. It took about 30 minutes and they grumbled a little but it obviously didn't hurt them as I have heard since that it was one of the best campouts we've been on and everyone wants to go again. I've never once heard the "cleaning incident" mentioned. I think boys should always be treated with respect, I also think they should always be held to reasonable standards. We do them a dis-service if we let them shirk their responsibilities. And in the case of hygene, you don't want to have to deal with the results of poor workmanship. BTW...I really like the idea of the ASPL being in charge of inspecting chuck boxes...I think I'll talk to the SPL about instituting that as one of his (ASPL) official duties. Our troop has instituted a quiet hour. Noise, other than quiet conversation, stops at 10pm. Everyone is to be in their tents by 11pm. We set the reveille time based on activity and everyone is to get up unless they are ill. I have dropped a tent or two in my time but not lately as all the boys seem to get up well nowadays. We picked up 7 new cross-overs this year so we'll see if that changes. I found that what works best is to have the boys set the standard with adult input and then simply expect them to live up to them. When they have a stake in the standards they seem to work toward them better. One other incident that might be of interest. About 5 years ago I had a boy in another troop I was working with who was notorious for being messy. On one trip I watched as he walked by the adult site, unwrapped a piece of sliced cheese, and threw the wrapper on the ground about 4 feet from a trash can. He and I had a "little talk" about my feelings toward "trace leavers." Afterward, he got the opportunity to police the entire troop campsite. Unfortunately, our talk seemed to have little effect. Before the day was over I watched him repeat the offense. He and his patrol leader and I all had a little talk about cleanliness and the lengths I was willing to go to ensure it. Then this young man and his patrol policed the entire troop campsite. I also spoke with the other patrol leader and the SPL about their future role in policing duties if this scout's behavior did not change. By chance, we ended up going further with the young man that weekend than we intended. The vehicles for the ride home ended up being too small for the whole troop to ride together. One scout and two adults had to ride in a second vehicle. I'll bet you can guess who the troop exiled to the 2 hour ride home with the scoutmasters. Oh, the inhumanity!!!! Now I'm sure some of you will say we went too far...but...this scout has done a complete 180. He saw that we were serious about his upholding standards and through our talks that we also cared about his development and character. He stayed with the troop and became one of the cleanest campers they had. Given the same situation again I don't think I would change a thing. If you are going to grow a good tree you have to prune it once in a while. No one likes discipline when it is happening...but there is benefit over time.

I think it would be much easier to have MB counselors from outside the troop if our council did a better job of keeping current lists. I don't know about the rest of you but the council I am in is terrible in this respect. Very few of the listed counselors still wish to be contacted and I'd be willing to bet there are at least a couple who have passed away and are still on our list. Now I know that some peoples response to this is "...well why don't you do something about it"...My only response to that is "I've run out of 1 hours per week and that is why we have paid people on staff" (IMO) Not a great answer, I know, but it's the honest one.

Personally, I'm offended by everything TJ and NJ have said including the completly inappropriate name tj chose for this thread...I think it should not just be stopped but removed. Scouter-Terry, what can done? I also doubt that either of you truly care about scouting but that you are simply here to promote your own perverse lifestyle. Luckily, most scouters disagree with with your views. DD, I understand that you were personally attacked and you are perfectly justified in defending yourself...however, I don't understand why we keep talking to these two...we know what they are!!!

BTW, the ACLU has finally taken one position that I agree with. An ACLU representative appeared on the O'Rielly factor and said that it was wrong for firemen to be forced to march in a homosexual pride parade. I agree, Just like I wouldn't expect homosexuals to be forced to march in a "Marraige is a Biblical Covenent" parade...oh wait...I don't think anyone would tolorate a parade like that...would they?

Small is subjective. There are many who feel the ACLU has does more harm than good. But, as you say, that is the adversarial system. As for me and my house... This should, however, be a lesson to those of us who grow weary of trying to help the country stay on the high road. The side that says we have no right to expect people to act responsibly and to accept personal responsibility instead of only demanding personal freedom will also have and advocate at their table. Wide is the gate and broad is the path... And there will always be someone at the gate telling people they should take the easy road. After all...it's your right!

Sctmom, Could I give you my thoughts on the High/Low adventure issue. I understand if a boy doesn't want to go on a particular trip such as white water..they should skip that one. What I have tried to guide our troop toward (and this is an ongoing project) is what I think of as Mid-adventure. These are trips that have enough challenge that the older boys enjoy it and get to do something new and yet are still designed for the younger scouts to make it with some effort. 5-7 mile hikes over a weekend. Base camping with dayhikes into the wilderness areas (longer walks lighter loads). The troop I was in when I was a kid was the same way. I "grew up" in scouting believing there was very little that a troop could do over a weekend that the youngest boys couldn't be involved in. I think if the troop sets reasonable goals both the older and younger boys could do most of the trips together. hope it all works out for you.

NJCubScouter, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here. As Paul Harvey says, "Self-government doesn't work without self discipline." The ALCU has a history of promoting not self-discpline but self-indulgence. I fully realize that this great country was founded on the principle of inalienable individual rights to freedom but there are times when people of good concience must give up their personal freedoms for the good of society (sort of the way we do in the military). I think the ACLU has lost sight of the general good and concentrates only on individual rights with out regard to the possible harm their actions may do to the country. If everyone is free to do anything and objection to any action is considered "intolerance," as the ACLU believes, then where do we draw the lines. Our country is like a river, powerful yet under some control but a river without banks is little more than a swamp. The ACLU constantly erodes the bounderies that hold us together int he name of personal freedom. Just my opinion.

Howabout this...a husband and a wife loving, respecting, and supporting each other, making God the head of their family and talking with him everyday, raising children to love God, respect their elders and there peers, and to care for those weaker than themselves. Howabout...love the Lord your God with all your heart, and all your mind, and all your strength, and all your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. A little more of these family values would do a lot to make this a better world. IMHO. Ok...Fighters to your corners...when the bell rings we want a good clean fight... Ding, Ding

tdyer56, I went out and bought a red windbreaker which I use as a bragging jacket. I think it looks nice and it does generate some questions once in a while about the various patches. On the front left breast I arranged all my boy scout ranks in a circle with a conspicuously open area in the middle where eagle could have been if I had worked a little harder. It's one of the first things people notice when they see the jacket and I use it as an opening to talk to the boys about what I did wrong and how I regretted not finishing strong. I agree with Bob White in that I think we need to teach boys (and sometimes other adults) to follow the rules even when no one else does (that's character) at the same time though, I think that a true love of the program can come through in special things like a bragging jacket and that those sorts of things can inspire the boys to do more. In my #1 reference, Paul says (and I'm paraphrasing here) that if you do something that makes another person stumble, even though you know there is nothing wrong with it, refrain from doing it around them so as not to cause them harm in their faith. If my wearing the jacket causes someone to think less of BSA policies then I'm at fault and I shoul dnot wear it around them. I haven't seen that yet. I don't consider the jacket part of an official uniform but BSA has never said you can't wear non-BSA items when in uniform. if they did, alot of troops would be running around in shirts and skivvies. Enjoy the program...Take pride in your accomplishment (past and present)...and help the boys become good men...That's what we are all about. God Bless.

A team Ironman competition would be cool...two bikers, two swimmers, X number of runners. We had an event at a comporee when I was a kid that I thought was really cool. We had a match stuck in a log match-head up. We had to strike the match with a hatchet. Short accurate swing was required and the judges made sure your swing went at least several inches above the match head. it was a great great hand-eye coordination exercise (and it involved fire!!!)

I don't know how it is produced but it is sold in hardware stores in cans like paint thinner. It's usually labeled as a shellac remover as well as denatured alcohol. Just ask your helpful hardware guy, he/she will know where they keep it. I paid $3.59 (US) for, I think, a 32oz can. The reason to use this is that it has most of the impurities removed and therefore burns very clean. There is no soot to clean from the bottom of your pot when you're done. Rubbing alcohol will burn but will soot your pots pretty badly. I filled my stove up to just below the burner holes the other day and got almost exactly 15 minutes of burn time. I probably used 3 oz of fuel.

This may or may not apply in your situation (and I know we've had a thorough discussion on the topic of homeschool on another thread, so I'm not looking to start a fight there). If you homeschool, many of the merit badges (particularly the science ones) lend themselves very well to school use. If your son is in public school you can still help him earn some of the badges that are less likely to be done at the troop meetings...reading, geneology, etc. Our troop does one merit badge at a time during the troop meetings. They can take several months to complete and often have homework assignments. Make sure if your son has homescoutwork that he stays on top of it. it's tough for him to catch up if he falls behind and it's a bit of a pain for the leaders to track a dozen boys all part way done with different requirements. There is no reason to push but we like to keep at least one scout issue going all the time as it seems to keep the boys focused on scouting. At home we work on merit nadges during th elate summer when the troop suspends meetings for a month.

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Couple of good games that are good for new and old are: Knot relay: Scout runs to knot tying location (10-20 yards from start line) referee has a stack of cards with names of knots. Scout draws card, ties knot, gets it inspected and runs back to tag next scout. Knot Kim's game: Tie 5-10 knots in a row between two trees. Let scouts examine for 2 minutes and then cover. The the scouts list the knots as they appeared from left to right or whatever order you choose. Last suggestion...Don't completely stop after the two weeks or so is over. At least once a month bring in some rope and go over one or two knots.

DD, Keep up the good fight. Many (I think Most) of us are behind you. The BSA is a place of moral fortitude not depravity.

R7, You're a good man...God Bless you.

Just made my first pepsi can stove yesterday... http://www.pcthiker.com/pages/gear/pepsistove.shtml It works really well. Two tablespoons of denatured alcohol burn around 10 minutes and the stove weighs almost nothing. I have added three tent stakes for a pot stand and some foil under the stove for fire protection and around the stove inside the stakes as a wind screen. I'll have to do some testing to see how quickly it'll boil water. I took it into our scout meeting last night and fired it up. The scouts loved it. We will probably have a project night where we have all the scouts make one and then use them on a future campout.