Bob White

See Ed you are not reading clearly. It is not because they said so. it is because it is their organization to control as they see fit. Would it be alright if they chose to revoke my membership because I sign my posts Bob White? Do you really think that would happen? Do you know of anyone that the BSA has ever done that to? Do you know of any time when the BSA asked anyone not to do use the name Bob White? Do the words Bob White interfere with the deliver of the program. To your knowledge have I ever I done anything to interfere with the program? Why should I even think about the BSA revoking my membership. No, I am sure if that happened I would not be happy BUT I am confident that the BSA would never do that. But if they did they have the authority and the right todo so. I would not go whining on a public forum about someone excercising thier right to operate their organization in a legal manner. So do you agree that like it or not the BSA has the right to revoke memberships based on their own criteria whatever they choose that to be. Do you agree with the statement that 'you knew the rules coming in and if you do not like them you can leave?'

We might be getting closer here Ed, What you think are good reasons and what i think ar godd reasons DOES NOT MATTER. It is not your organization or mine. It is not your role or resonsibility to make the decision. The question is should the BSa be able to remove a volunteer? Absolutely. If they can't then who can. It's their organization we are VOLUNTEERS in it. The reasons are whatever reasons they choose, they have the right to set their rules. You can evict someone from your home for whatever reason you want. No one else's opinion matters because its not their house. Volunteers do not OWN the BSA organization they volunteer to help deliver the BSA's program. Would you agree with the statement that you joined voluntarily and if you don't like the rules leave? The BSA can do what it likes if I don't like it I can leave, if they don't like me they make me leave. Based on my experience in over thirty years in the program the BSA has made very few mistakes and they have been minimal in nature. They have earned my trust. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed are we really going to have to debate what "is" is? You do not know anyone who has ever been removed simply for disagreeing. That is because it hasn't happened. There have been a very small number of volunteers whose personal behavior has interferred with the ability of the council to operate effectively and they had their membership revoked. Do you believe that the BSA should be allowed to remove a volunteers membership? And if someone wants to know what I think I have always been perfectly willing to discuss it with them myself. There is no need for you to speak for anyone other than Ed.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"As BW said, "drop a line to the webmaster". Easier said than done." Actually it is done about as easy as it is said. The address to write to is at the bottom of the home page. Boy Scouts of America, National Council P.O. Box 152079 Irving, Texas 75015-2079 Simply address your note to the Scouting.org webmaster

Eagle 74 We have seen evidence on the forum of scout leaders who have overlooked things that have been in the Handbooks for DECADES, is it so hard to imagine that one paragraph on one page out of hundreds of pages could be overlooked?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I haven't judged anyone. I have supported the BSA right to decide.

But Ed who do you know was thrown out for just disagreeing? It's not disagreeing that got anyones membership revokoked. It was how and to whom they protested. So if you agree that that under certain conditions the council or BSA cann revoke membership than it is not a matter of the BSA being unjust but of the individual protesting in a an unproductive manner. Do you agree with that?

If their behavior interferes with the delivery of the program...

evmori, Are you saying that you are against the BSA or local council from removing membership from a Scouter whose behavior becomes a nuisance? The issue at hand according to the title of the thread is unjust revocation. Are you saying that you are against the BSA or local council from removing membership from a Scouter whose behavior becomes a nuisance? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

evmori I am confused on you stand on the issue at hand. Are you saying that you are against the BSA or local council from removing membership from a Scouter whose behavior becomes a nuisance?

Scouting again If someone joined the military thinking they were going to do what they wanted to do in the military....Surprise! When you go into the military you had better expect to do the tasks the military assigns to and in the manner the military wants. Ed, You probably haven't heard but the military is now all volunteer, people choose to join, they are not made to join. Scouting is the same way. If you do not want to learn and follow the program why join. That goes for any volunteer organization. Membership is a privilege and not a right. Remember, I am not saying you cannot disagree with the BSA, plese do it AS LOUD AS YOU WANT. But stop thinking that their is some constitutional right to membership. There isn't. The BSA allows any one the freedom to cpomplain as much as they like...outside of the membership in the BSA. If you do not like the BSA you do not have to stay. If you make a big enough nusance of yourself the decision is mader for you. Rather than try to be a noisy gong why not just learn about the program, do your job well enough that you get asked to take on other responsibilities to help strengthen the program at other levels. I have met a number of men and women who work at the national level as professionals and as volunteers. None of them behave the way that is represented by the complainers on this thread. They all have opinions and they do not all agree but they present their critism in a constructive way and to the committees who actually make the decisions. You guys talk about hiding in shadows, concealing your opinions, complaining to folks powerless to make change. Basically not doing anything orther than complaining. Complainers all hold positions that could be filled by someone willing to do the job without complaint, why should the unit, council, or BSA allow them to inhabit such valuable space? It is not the revocations that are unjust.

Believe me! I feel your pain Eagle 74.

The methods have not been changed. There are two pages. One is current, one is from the older web site format and it has an error on it. A Scout is Helpful. Drop a line to the Web master and let them know of the error. Someone merely mistyped the fact sheet, besides it is now outdated and needs to be removed. Adult Association is still a method of the Boy Scout program as shown on the current page. http://www.scouting.org/factsheets/02-503.html

Even the best salesperson doesn't close every sale. But what if one scout comes back to the program is it worth having 30 asked? Whether or not this is a "check off" requirement is dependent on how it is taught and tested just as with any other requirement. lets look at the requirement Ordinary Rank in the Sea Scouts, the BSA's fastest growing program over the past 5 years. " 5.Recruit a new member for your ship and follow through until the new member is registered and formally admitted." Now these ar older scouts, and so they have to actually recruit someone (notice no Sea Scouts are complaining about this requirement). They need to learn the skill before they get to this point. So the BSA is simply having the scout learn how to invite others to join by learning how to speak positively about the program. A feat that for some seems extremely challenging.

packsaddle, I try not not to make my posts as long as some do. If ever there is a portion you feel needs more explanation a simple polite request will do nicely. Obedient according to the the Scout law says that if you disagree with a rule or law you try to have it changed in an orderly manner. the few people losing their membership have not done so. Loyal says that you are to be true to the various communities in your life. It gives, school, family, country as examples. Pretenting to accept the values of ones community (scouting) in this instance) but then disparaging them in the shadows is not being "true" to either your beliefs or scoutings. Acco, A better example using your patriotism model is not using people outside of the military but those VOLUNTEERS who joined it. Some after geting what they wanted of the military now don't like it because now they have to do what the military was designed for. They volunteered to join. No one made them. So now is not the time to criticize it. Do not join an organization and then decide that you don't like what they do, or how they do it, or the folks that run it. If you do not like how the organization is run then do not join. But if you join and agree to follow the rules then do it and stop the whining. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Because it serves no purpose in the development of the Scout in the program." Learning how to tell others of the fun of scouting and helping your unit grow serves no purpose in the development of the scou? That is a fascinating statement coming from a commissioner who is charged with "seeing that every eligible youth has the opportunity to belong to a quality scoutng program." It would seem the value of learning to speak positively about scouting and inviting others into scouting is a skill that is un-used an unappreciated by several on this forum.

What exactly is blind about knowing and supporting the program? If the BSA is not what you want it to be after nearly 100 years then what would lead you to believe it is going to change to suit YOU in your lifetime? It it is not what you wanted ot to be then you did you join? More importantly why do you prentend to agree with them only when in view of others.

If it's a good idea then how is it lame? Some posters keep saying its a bad idea but no one has yet to say WHY.

I did answer the question Hunt you just don't like the answer. Your question infers that anyone and everyone who disagrees with the council or BSA are removed from membership and that is simply untrue. Very few in fact are. It is not about disagreeing it is about how you disagree and how big an obstacle you become to the delivery of the program. But why stay in a volunteer program you do not like? Do I think people who volunteer for an organization should accept and follow the program, policies and procedures as they said they would ? Yes I do. if they do not, or if they complain publicly about the organization they do not have to be a member of, should they be removed? I have no problem with that. Is pretending to be a member who supports the program only when others are watching... distasteful and duplicitous? Absolutely. And for the very few who did not understand my story, what is unscoutlike depends on which end of the poker you are on. I am sure to the whiners, gossips, and pretenders that revocation of membership is a horrible thing. to those actually happily leading scouting programs it is simply weeding the garden to make room for more happy volunteers. In the overall view, the jhnky's and his supporters are a very small portion of the volunteer membership. Most scouters are cheerful, folks trying to build the program not trying to tear it down.

Should have read "No one says not to protest the membership rules if you disagree." As far as what values you do not share Loyal and Obedient come to mind.

If the smell is on the inside wipe it out with vanilla extract. Glad to hear you and the family are safe. BW

Oak tree, How about we deal with what is real rather than what is imagined. The advancement committee made of VOLUNTEER leaders from across the country did not ad a bunch of requirements. They added 1. The one they added requires the scout to speak in a positive way about the unit to one other person, and toa ask them to weither consider joining or to become more active. Where Oak Tree,is the harm in this specific requirement? "Well, several of us don't seem to support it." Yes, but several of you do not support the BSA on anything, and yet... you stay. Why? Because at some point someone asked YOU to join. Ironic isn't it.

Hi Jim, The BSA does not alter merit badges (see the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, an excellent resource that all commissioners should familiarize themselves with), instead the BSA can offer an alternate badge. You should first contact the council advancement committee for assistance, Or contact Terry Lawson of the Boy Scout Advancement Division at the BSA national office. BW

You may be right OGE but I don't know, I have never managed hundreds of different resources for an organization the immense size of the BSA. I know that three years ago there was no training on line on now there are several. I know that last year you couldn't order on line from the BSA distribution center. Once handbooks were only in English and now many are in Spanish. I know that a new training was needed for junior leaders and now we have one. It seems all good ideas eventually work there way to the top. And that there are improvements in services every year. But you cannot expect everything to happen at once. Probably some day doing what you propose will become the priority and it will find its time to get done. Until then there are things we can do for ourselves to keep abreast of things.

No one says do to protest the membership rules if you disagree. Just do not think that you're guranteed membership in the organization you vulutarily joined and voluntarily protest against. You aren't, no one is, no one ever was. If you think there is honor in representing yourself as having one set of values and then taking off the uniform and supporting a differnt set of values there isn't. Character is what you do when others aren't watching. Why would anyone voluntarily choose to belong to an organization who values they do not share. Who do you think you fool besides yourself?(This message has been edited by Bob White)