Twocubdad

I'll take a whole troop of 11 and 12 year olds and we'll have a great time. Is that ideal? Clearly not. I really want a good mix of Scouts top to bottom so you have some experienced guys, guys who have prior jamboree experience, etc. But being 11 isn't a deal-breaker. All this really does is match BSA membership requirements so all the boys who crossed over together get an equal shot. If you do the math, having finished the sixth grade probably (but not 100%) means a young man has been in a troop for 18 months by the time jamboree rolls around (assuming he earned AOL and crossed over the previous spring). And from a practical standpoint, you I doubt you'll see many 11 year-olds. I think we had one 12-year-old in our troop last year. Given the lead time, boys are going to have to start signing up for Jamboree as Webelos. That doesn't happen much. I will say with any Scout that young, I would include a chat with the parents in the application process. They need to be honest if the Scout is immature, clinggy and never been away from home much. My older son went in 2005 as as a 12 year-old. Had a blast. He also had a terrific SM who was great with the boys, especially the younger ones. Jamboree was the highlight of his scouting career. He went to world in 2007 and was SPL of his jamboree troop last year.

Let's assume this was a fairly generic prayer of thanks, asking for the Lord's blessing on the meeting and asking to see everyone home safely. Then I'd say the parents were remarkably remiss in their due deligence prior to joining. If their faith causes them to take offense at the simple sort or prayers which typically open meetings, the burden was on them to find out. At least they had the decency to leave early instead of snarking around for two years causing problems.

I don't mind a bit of artistic license, but they can learn the friggin' words! Write them on your hand if you need to. Asides from the bozos milling around during the anthem, I get irritated with the people who think the song ends at "or' the land of the free" and start screaming wildly over top of the last line. On the other hand, I was at a Ravens' game and thought is was a neat local tradition that following the line, "that our flag was still there" all the Baltimore fans screamed "HERE!"

I was in the state student legislature for two years in college. Some of those guys are absolutely fanatical about Robert's Rules. You had to know your way around the rules just to be able to eat or go to the head, much less conduct any business. Gotta say, Stosh, the idea that using Robert's Rules is critical to having a boy-led troop is a new one. Using RR during a PLC meeting sure sounds adult-driven to me. There are very few organizations which really use Robert's Rules, or use them properly. Just because folks make motions and wait for a second before voting doesn't mean they're using Robert's. Robert's is most effective for policy-making bodies where accuracy and thorough debate is at a premium. I hope that doesn't describe anyone's PLC. Most PLCs are about generating ideas, making plans and reaching concensus. RR are not very conducive to that style of meeting. The best thing an SM can do to help the SPL keep meetings productive is to work with him to develop an agenda for each meeting. With an agenda, the SPL knows what needs to be covered and has a time frame in which to get it done. I have an agenda meeting by phone with my SPL every Sunday night, and especially before PLCs. Once he's learned the process, I'll just ask what he has on tap and listen. Sometimes I'll have something I think needs discussion or reiteration and ask him to include it. The ability to create an agenda, work through it and make decisions is a pretty important skill to have.

Good stuff, Uz. I'll add that the Den Chief AND Den Leader should go through training together. Because our council typically holds DC training in January in conjunction with Pow Wow (half-way through the year) we do our own DC training in late August as a break-out from Troop Leader Training. We ask the Den Leaders to attend along with their new DC. It is critical that the DL understands the DC program and what the den chief should and should not be expected to do.

You missed my point. In the OP the pack is actively undermining the troop; denigrating the program; refusing to allow the troop to recruit within the pack; not only directing Webelos to another troop, but apparently harassing boys who indicate an interest in the CO's troop. I have no problem whatsoever with an individual Scout choosing a different troop to be with his friends or because differences in program make one troop more suitable to him. But still, an individual Scout owes his brother troop a fair look. None of which is the situation in the original post. The pack leaders aren't encouraging Webelos to find a troop which best suits them and the certainly aren't respecting the boys' choices. This is really an adult issue. Of course boys should do what is in their best interest. But the adults were selected by the CO to deliver a quality Scouting program top to bottom, regardless of the program in which we happen to be registered. If I believe our pack is delivering a sub-standard program, I have an obligation to the CO to try and help them improve. If our pack leaders see something in our troop program which is causing Scouts to quit or move on, they need to let us know and help us fix it. At the core, this is another thread about a poor relationship between a unit and CO. How many threads -- how many current threads -- have we read where the CO doesn't support the unit or the unit doesn't support the CO?

Wear it. Better yet, why not present it to your son?

I get the whole free market theory behind troops recruiting from Cubs. If Scouts are voting with their feet and going to another troop, we need to re-examine our own program and ask why and what we can do to make our program more attractive. Cubs should be free to choose among troops to find one which suits them best. Just like in any other free market, competition makes all players better. I have no problem with that .... up to a point. Actually that point is the second point -- A Scout is Loyal. I think we have an obligation to work with, support and help the other units attached to our chartered organization. I know there is no technical connection between units, but I'll bet many if not most CO's see their "Scouting" program as one, not a collection of separate programs. No, there's nothing in any handbook or BSA policy which mandates it, or which even acknowledges the concept of "brother" units. But loyalty and common courtesy demand it. All units connected to a CO has an obligation to support the CO, both jointly and singly. If nothing else, we need to play nice. CO's don't charter packs, troops and crews because they want to referee this sort of intermural crap. Packs need to have good programs, prepare their boys for the troop and work with the troop to ensure the boys are successful in Boy Scouts. Troops need to provide a good program for the incoming Cubs and do their part to help the pack with Den Chief and Webelos transitions. Both have an obligation to help each other deliver the best Scouting program possible for the Chartered Organization.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Nah, that would be the same genius -- and by genius I also mean idiot -- who came up with kindergarten and elementary graduation ceremonies. I remember when one of my boys came home and said he was "graduating" from elementary school, I asked him if he had to go to school the next year. Of course he did. Well, then, you're not really graduating, are you?

First, be nice: -- Go with the assumption they are your brother pack and OF COURSE the leaders are going to be cooperative. Flood them with invitations and information about troop activities. CC the COR on everything, especially anything unbecoming which comes back from the pack. -- Recruit Den Chiefs for the pack and ask the Cubmaster to please coordinate Den Chief assignments between the troop and pack. CC the COR on all correspondence. -- If your CO is a church, work with the minister to participate in Scout Sunday services, then invite the pack to participate. -- Make sure all troop activities are promoted through the CO, expecially if it is a church. Have your troop meetings posted on all the CO's calendars. When the troop does something special including new Eagles, make sure it's in the CO's newsletter. -- When a member of the charter organization makes Eagle, or even the son of a member, ask to do a short presentation during a meeting of the CO or worship service, if appropriate. -- Recruit hard through the CO. Do open house recruitment nights and promote them heavily to the CO membership. For churches, you can get pre-printed bulletin inserts. You may get a few boys who are not currently Cubs, but you can also directly recruit the boys who are in the pack. Yes, you definitely play off the loyalty to the chartered organization. If being nice doesn't work, try it again. Keep being nice right up until it's time not to be nice. Then go guerrilla. Come up with means to get around the filter of the pack leaders and go directly to the den leaders and cub parents: -- Ask the CO for bulletin board space, preferably in the same meeting space as the pack, to promote troop activities. Prominently display all the fun, cool stuff your troop does. Post large invitations to troop open houses. You may want to consider a covered, lockable BB. -- Show up, invited or not, at pack committee meetings and distribute flyers for various troop programs, like campouts and open houses where the cubs are invited, the availability of den chiefs, etc. Don't engage the other leaders, just hand the flyers to some guy on the back row, ask them to pass these around, wave and say, "gotta run!" -- Schedule troop activities for the same time as pack and den meetings. Don't be distruptive, but do really cool stuff in plain view of the Cub Scout. A monkey bridge, signal tower, or even just a camp fire. -- Build a mailing/email list of Cub families from various sources. If you ask your DE for a list of all Cubs in the town for recruiting purposes, he should provide them to you. Send information about the troop, include invitations to open houses, directly to the pack families. -- Put flyers on cars in the parking lot outside pack meetings. -- Ask the CO to allow the troop to build an obstacle course on the property. Out of safety concerns, the troop and CO will agree that the course will only be used when the Boy Scouts are available to supervise. Of course the best revenge is always living well. Run a great program. Make sure your guys are having fun

One of my favorite Tiger den meetings -- for reasons which will be apparent -- was the food-guide pyramid snacks. Pretty standard lecture on the food guide pyramid, but then each Tiger had to assemble his own snack which met the standards of the guide. For snacks the boys chose from celery stick, carrots, broccoli "trees", apple slices, grapes, peanut butter, cream cheese, Cheesewiz, pecans, M&Ms, chocolate chips, apple juice, soda and milk. Of course, you can make up the list yourself, but the point was for the boys to build a snack which covered the four food groups. Like celery sticks with cream cheese topped with pecans and chocolate chips (which is actually very good). They made the snacks but had to justify their selections before they ate them. Another thing we did was to have whole milk, 2% and skim milk. We discussed the differences then had the boys try all three. The looks on the boys' faces were priceless.

In the pack I served, B&G was clearly all about the Webelos. All other rank advancements were presented the "right" way -- as they were earned -- but all AOLs were presented at B&G. It became a self-fulfilling cycle: because all the AOLs were presented at once it became a big deal; because it was a big deal, it became easier to present all the AOLs at one time. Cross over in Feb/March is a good thing. That most follow that schedule has driven the B&G/AOL/Crossover jumble, as others have posted. But back to 'Fish's original post, if you eliminate all the hoopla surrounding the Web2s, what's left? Does anyone really care February is the birthday of Scouting. Okay, last year was an exception. But otherwise? I came along in Scouting during the era when you chugged along from Cubs to Webelos to Boy Scouts all by yourself, changing dens or units on your individual birthday. Consequently B&G was no big deal. I have absolutely no memory of any B&G, but I can clearly tell you about my first and last pack meetings and pinewood derby. And maybe back in the day, B&G was the one annual excuse for a party? During my time as Cubmaster, and I belive still, we had big banquet-like events at least quarterly. We always kicked off the year with a late-summer pool party and picnic; the fall campout was close enough to home that all the moms brought dinner for a big campfire; winter was B&G with all the attending AOL/B&G swirl; and we ended the year with another campout and picnic during which all the cubs "graduate" to their next level. We do plenty of banquets. Frankly, without all the Webelos II stuff, B&G would loose its raison d'etre.

One of the best sessions in Wood Badge is on leading change. The 50-cent version is that when when you are trying to turn around an organization you have to expect there will be pushback from the old guard. You must have both confidence that you are moving in the right direction and the courage of your convictions. The process can get ugly and you may lose members. Sounds like you've got a good plan, a clear understanding of where the pack needs to go. Keep to the high road but stick to your guns.

I know this isn't your main point, Beav, but I'll have to back up Stosh regarding boys who don't want to work. Unfortunately, it's not at all rare. While some may not know what to do and are afraid to ask, the handful of boys I'm thinking of have been in the troop several years and are quite capable. They choose to use their knowledge of the system to avoid responsibility rather that take it. I bet you can name a bunch of adults who fit that description, too, eh? I can imagine in a two-patrol, 14-scout troop there's no where to run, no where to hide, so they quit. Our troop is big enough that these kids can fly under the radar. With seven patrols and 75 Scouts they can make themselves scarce when the duty roster is being made or patrol elections are being held. Where the rubber meets the road in our troop is when they hit Life and I start pushing them to step up and start giving back to the troop. I lose guys to other, "easier" troops over their Eagle POR and overall involvement in the troop.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Moose nailed it. It's a huge commitment AND the Scout should have an interest and aptitude for working with younger boys. A rare find. The other option is the older sons of pack leaders, who get dragged to all the pack activities. But be careful with that and make sure the Scout wants to do it. I had a Scout like that who should have been one of the A+++ leaders in the troop, except that he was so burned out by being forced to be a Cub Scout for 10 years. The lesson I learned was that I need to be a better advocate for a Scout who is being pushed into a position by his parents.

So, then, I suppose we have "operating guidelines" not bylaws. Sorta disjointed bullet points of things which seemed important at the time. How about this: Those of you with bylaws how about posting some of them. Maybe the table of contents or some of the points which seem pertinent or unique.

Since you're interested, Stosh, let me tell you how the rest of the conversation went. First, I let the mom have her say. A lot of stuff about the boy being a year behind in school and always feeling like he's has to be with younger kids; that he's changed schools several times; that he didn't have any friends in his old patrol but stuck it out (as a first-year Scout he was in a NSP with the boys with whom he crossed over. In the past year he's made friends with several older guys.) All good to know. When it was my turn I explained to the mom the reason for and method of the reorganization, which I posted, above, and won't repeat. I also explained that we I took over as SM patrols were assigned by adults. Since, we've tried to let the PLC make the decisions, but this year experimented ith throwing the process open to all the Scouts. Like many things where the Scouts take point, it can get messy and the results are always what the adults would like or what we would have chosen. Ultimately, I told her since her son missed the meeting and his opportunity to have his input, he needed to negotiate a solution and present it to the SPL for his approval. She said her son's three best friends wound up in one patrol and he would be happy if he had one of those guys in his patrol. I suggested that he could perhaps offer to trade with one of the other Scouts in the other patrol, or he could ask one of the boys in his patrol to trade with one of his three friends. In the end, she thought it would be a learning experince for her son to solve the problem for himself. I don't recall either of us mentioning "tough winkies" during the call.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

UPDATE -- got the first mommie call re the new patrol rosters. "None of his friends are in his patrol." Well, mom, I personally stood up and explained to the boys that while it's tough to make every one happy, we want all the Scouts to feel like they have at least one or two of their buddies in the patrol with them. They were told that if they really can't live with their new patrol they should discuss it with the SPL and try to work out a solution. "Well, he wasn't there Tuesday...." Uhhh huh...

Just finished this process last night. We've been adding a lot of new scouts every year for the past couple and will be gaining another 14 at crossover this month. First year we put the new Scouts in a new Scout patrol, but at the end of that year they disburse into the regular Scout patrols. Because we keep adding patrols, we have to reshuffle about every two years. This year we started the process by having all the Scouts organize their own patrols. One patrol in each corner of the room, one in the center. Only rules were 10 Scouts or less in each patrol. There also needed to be one, preferably two, ready, willing and able patrol leaders in each patrol. And we wanted them to consider balance. The patrols don't have to be absolutely homogenous, but ideally we want a mix of ages, ranks and abilities. This is the first time we've formed patrols like this so we were very clear that this was an experiment. It if totally crashed and burned, the PLC reserved the right to tweak the final patrols and/or start the process over. GO! They actually did pretty well. Three of the five patrols were acceptable. One patrol was top heavy in older guys -- age wasn't so much the issue as it was too clique-y. Another patrol was all first year guys and one older Scout who saw what was going on and joined that patrol out of a sense of obligation -- too much like a NSP with a Troop Guide. Consequently, the PLC took that roster as a starting point and did some horse-trading. In the end, when the final rosters were announced, only two boys complained that they didn't like their patrols. They were given the opportunity to arrange trades with other patrols, with the SPL's approval. We wrapped up the night with PL elections. Life is good. Until next week. Traditionally that's when I'll catch hell from a couple parents whose sons either didn't bother to show up and were left out of the process or were too shy to insert themselves into the process.

No, OGE, what I would tell the boy is there are all sorts of things in Boys' Life, Scouting and on the shelves at the Scout Shop which aren't appropriate for our troop's program. There are articles about units which build their program around playing soccer most of the year. We don't do that. There are constantly articles and promotions about selling popcorn. We don't do that either. While it's trendy and hip for BSA to include electronics in every issue of Boys' Life, our unit doesn't agree that needs to be part of our program either. Scouting is set up with many options local units may or may not include. Decisions on what is and is not include in our troop are made by a number of groups and individuals including the Scouts, their parents, the PLC, the Scoutmaster, the troop committee, our COR and the chartered organization and BSA itself -- ALL of which have a role in determining what our troop progam looks like. When the boy reminds me the troop is supposed to be boy led, I will tell him youth have an opportunity to lead. Leadership means convincing and motivating others to follow you. The method of youth leadership does not mean the Scouts have singular control over unit policy. It doesn't mean everyone else automatically follows their lead. Like real life, everyone has a boss, a board of directors, shareholders, customers, voters or spouse they have to satisfy. Scouting gives the youth far greater latitude in running their program than just about anything else they are involved in. But that doesn't mean they have total control or final say. The boys want to vote on Eagle candidates? No, advancement policy belongs to BSA. The PLC votes to paint the scout hut flat black with red trim? Nope, church property committee. Take the whole troop to a Chemical Romance concert? Not with this Scoutmaster. Several years ago it was decided that we would not allow electronics at troop functions, with certain exceptions. If the Scout feels a change in that policy is warranted, he is more than welcome to LEAD the effort to change it. If he can come up with an acceptable alternative and convince the other stakeholders of its merits, the policy can be changed. You want to take the lead on changing the policy, go for it.

One of my sayings is "never pay tuition twice for the same lesson" or less colorfully, learn from your mistakes. A reasonable function of bylaws is to serve a institutional memory. In SP's case, if a unit had an issue with the treasurer going off-reservation, it's reasonable to codify the lessons learned into a policy that the bank statment goes to someone other than the treasurer. We had a discipline issue in our troop a year or so ago. Without going into all the details we made some changes to the bylaws to address some of the problems we had. Of course this makes for a patch-work policy, but that's okay. Where units get in trouble, I think, is when a committee to sits down and writes bylaws from whole cloth. That almost begs for a big, hairy, bureaucratic document which unnecessarily hamstrings the unit.

OGE -- I tell them the same thing as when they ask if they can wear BSA blue jeans with their uniforms.

Engineer61 -- I had written a fairly rational response to your suggestion that the fatality in Florida justified all Scouts having a cell phone regardless of troop policy. As I frequently do, before hitting submit I went back and re-read your post. I picked up on one of you comments caused me to go back and delete my original, rational response: "I'm inclined to say SM-be damned...." I'm inclined to say don't let the scout hut door hit you in the butt. If you can't support the troop leadership and don't think they have the best interest and safety of the boys at the fore, then man-up and quit. Don't teach you son to be a weazel and sneak a phone when he has been asked not to. SM-be damned.... what I'm really inclined to say isn't printable.

Asking to see their books or if they charge the choir rent is just going to piss people off. The pack has a decision to make. First, philosophically, are you willing to pay the church anything or do you feel that's a violation of their charter? If you are willing to pay, then how much? Can you afford $300? The whole $600? I think it is reasonable to go to the church and say they people YOU APPROVED to lead the pack think $XXX is all we can afford to donate to the church without having a serious impact on our ability to deliver the program THE CHURCH asked us to deliver. To me, a good solution would be to give the church $200 and tell them that's the other half of the money you raised at your joint fund raiser. This year you'll donate all the money to the church and will do what you can to increase what you earn. I wouldn't promise them $600, but I would promise your best efforts toward the fundraiser. Here's another thought: are you a member of the church? Is anyone in the pack a member? If so, let them take the lead. And by the way, since your DE is too busy with "the numbers" here's a number she should consider -- ZERO. That's what she can expect from your pack's Friends of Scouting contributions since you'll be asking the parents to contribute money to the church instead of FOS. Your DE needs to do her dad-gummed job. DEs are supposed to meet with every COR and Institutional Head every year. The whole idea is to help build relationships between BSA and the COs to avoid these types of problems. I'm guessing your IH can't pick your DE out of a police lineup.

As I said, we tried the first year program last year and didn't like. Usually, we do what Stosh's troop does and have the new scouts take First Aid, Swimming and a few other MBs. Problem is our camp has become such a MB mill I had guys who had not yet made Tenderfoot coming home with 6-8 MBs. Mainly to combat that trend, we tried the first year program last year and were disappointed. Where we are heading is somewhat of a hybrid program. Our intention is to offer our new scouts one- or two-hour T-2-1 sessions back in the campsite. We would break this up with sending them off to Swimming MB and a few other intro-level MBs. While I do want to recruit our Scouts to help with the classes, I don't know about requiring TGs to stay with their charges the whole time. If we make that a part of the TG job description, I suspect interest in becoming a TG will drop considerably. The troop is growing to the point that we have a larger corps or older scouts attending summer camp. Last year we had a couple of our older guys who volunteered to spend an hour or two working with the new scout program. (Unfortunately, when they reported to NSP area, they were treated if they were trying to steal the staff's jobs. By Wednesday they just quit going.) This summer I'm hoping to get older Scouts to volunteer again, even if they aren't the patrols' actual Troop Guides. Just as with the new scouts, I'm hoping the ability to teach for an hour or so then head off to their own MB classes will be appealing to the older guys. The big obstacle to this will be scheduling. The way our camp schedules its merit badges is for the boys to submit their selections, then the computer figures out the schedule. If we leave open times for them to be back in the campsite, the computer will schedule them throughout the day. That's not going to work. I've got a meeting with the camp director next month to try and negotiate this. He's a good guy and I know he will work it out if we can.