Twocubdad

The regulars on the forum frequently get criticized for jumping on the newcomers. Folks write in with one question and we end up picking apart another part of their program. Often, I think, folks are looking for simple answers to narrow questions and don't like the response they get when the old timers start pointing out the bigger problems and issues involved. You're probably not going to like this and please don't take it personally. The forums are a bit like the fine print at the end of a Dr. Phil episode. It's not so much about solving your problem as much as it is educating all the other folks reading along. I think your CC is doing his job. His Number One responsibility is ensuring policy is followed and the program is safe. Bottom line is your plan is to put five boys on a cross-country flight without the necessary two deep leadership. You seem to be interested in gerrymandering a solution through the rules which gets you the answer you want. But the larger, over-riding rule is two deep leadership. Frankly, if I were your CC I would have concerns about the trip plans as well. Your CC has been nothing but upfront with you. As soon as he learned of your plan, he told you there may be a problem and a week later confirmed that. At that point, you had a choice: family reunion or Seabase. That you've continued to make plans and after that point is on your nickel. You, and of course we, don't know what has gone into his decision making. Perhaps in week before he gave you a firm answer he did consult with other members of the troop committee or the COR (for all we know, he's serving in a dual role of CC and COR). Or it may be the culture of your troop is a very strict insistance on two-deep leadership and there was no reason to poll the committee. Although I think it is reasonable for you to ask if the COR and/or other committee have been included in discussion, don't get the idea that you should litigate this before the full committee. Beavah can further explain that unit committees operate on concensus not votes. In all candor and with due respect to you, I suggest you give greater consideration to the commitment you made to the crew rather than the fine points of BSA policy.

Question -- when did the trip to CT come up? The Seabase trip has probably been in the works for a year-and-a-half or two, right? How long has the CC known about the situation?

People coming and going from the trip shouldn't be an issue. When my son went to World Jamboree, if a family wanted to meet the troop in London, sign-out their son and continue with a family vacation, there were provisions to do that. That was set forth from National, so I don't see how it's a policy issue. On the other hand, I do see your CC's point. What sort of contingency plans are place in the event of delays or emergencies? What if, for example, the flight from Chicago is diverted and the crew is forced to overnight in Atlanta? Or if your flight from CT is cancelled? Sure, there is the chance that something could happen to one of the adults while at Seabase, but those odds are really rather remote. But the chance of flights being screwed up is comparatively high. I, too, would be concerned about only having one adult on the first leg of the trip. And yes, frankly, this is the CC's call to make. If he is uncomfortable with the arrangements it's his job to question them. Technical compliance with BSA policies is the minimum. The unit is perfectly within it's right to set higher standards.

I'm not really understanding the full picture here. Is the WDL's Webelos son going on the trip with him? How do you know this wasn't a personal invitation only for the WDL? If I'm understanding you correctly (which is somewhat unlikely) this doesn't seem like a Webelos den issue at all. Since you have son's in the troop, perhaps the proper course would be as a troop parent to approach the Scoutmaster in a friendly and non-confrontational way and tell him that you understand that some younger brothers/Webelos are going on the tubing trip and that your younger son would really like to attend too. As a matter of fact, several of the Webelos would like to go and this would make a great Troop-Den activity. Of course, as others have noted, you have to do your homework and make sure that it is, in fact, an appropriate activity for the whole den. Invitations are invitations. The person/group doing the inviting gets to decide. Of course if the troop did invite the entire den and the WDL took it upon himself to not deliver the invitation, you have a right to be p.o.'d(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Your uniform from '87 still fits?!? Which leg? Especially during the centennial last year, you often saw guys wearing vintage uniforms and parts. Particularly at jamboree. My sons' troop dug up '70s-era position patched for the leaders, including the old keystone Leadership Corps patches for the troop level guys. As the others have said, you need a current uniform reflecting your current status in the program. But if your uniform fits -- and God bless you -- and you want to wear it for special occasions now and then, go for it. A conversation starter such as that may give you an opportunity to strike up an conversation you otherwise wouldn't have. And if any of the Uniform Police complain, tell them to kiss your skill awards.

He HAS reported it. To his Scoutmaster. That should be enough. Yeah, contact the camp director. Hopefully the CD has a little bit of finesse and can handle the situation without making it harder on your Scout.

So during the 20 minutes you're always waiting for him to show, why didn't you just collect the roster info from the other parents? When he gets there, get him caught up on your plans for the campout. Hand him a hammer and show him were you are on the Engineer project the boys are building. As Captain Courageous said, "Lead, follow or get out of the way."

Oh, I don't know. When I was a DL the food pyramid was one of our best den meetings evers. I made a large FP poster for the table, then had a bunch of different foods. Celery sticks, carrots, apple slices, cream cheese, peanut butter, crackers, cookies, chocolate chips, beef jerky, you name it. The boys had to tell me where on pyramid each item went. Lastly, everyone had to build their snack for the meeting by choosing a balanced assortment of food off the chart. As a bonus we had skim and whole milk and encouraged the boys to try the type of milk they usually drank at home. You should have seen the looks on their faces.

The current commissioner model had been dead for years, if not decades, but no one cares enough to give it a proper burial. Taking your 4-5 experienced Scouters and making them UCs is a wasted resource. In 12 years with the pack and troop we have had two UCs. Both times was when someone from within the pack or troop took the job. In both cases they went through the training, did commissioner stuff for a couple months then realized there was absolutely nothing productive for them to do. The both moved on to other positions within the pack or troop. Coming to troop or pack meetings is a waste of time. No one has time to talk to a UC. And if they did, the level of conversation never gets past "how's business?" "Oh, great. You?" You want a snapshot of the health of a unit, attend a committee meeting. How many folks are there? Did the treasurer give a report? What outings are planned? Do they have an annual calendar? Did the training chairman promote upcoming trainings? Were there problems discussed? Do the folks get along? Or better yet, ask the unit leader out for a cup of coffee once in awhile. Develop a relationship with him or her. Maybe ask them to grab a bite before Roundtable or offer to carpool. The big problem is with "healthy" units, UCs have noting to do so it's a waste of a volunteer. Up until the time there is a problem with the unit, then there's no on-going relationship with a UC and it's too late. I think a better model for the Comm Corps is RT commissioners. They have a specific focus and recruit and develop volunteers to that focus. I'd organize commissioners around various tasks -- Recharter Commissioners, New Unit Commissioners, Unit Recovery Commissioners -- that sort of thing.

Radio Shack sells a really cool laser which projects a visible green beam, like a really long Star Wars light saber. That's really helpful to use as a pointer. Instead of waving your finger at the sky saying, "see there's the handle and theres the dipper part and if you trace the last two stars...." meanwhile everyone is nodding, whether they see what you're talking about or not. I have a nice pair of binocs, 7x50, so they're really bright. Great for the moon and planets, but you pick up a lot of cool stuff like the Andromeda galaxy which you don't often see with the naked eye, depending on ambient light and your own vision. They have a fairly wide field of vision so what you see when with or without them is relatively the same, just better resolution. I like teaching consellations by teaching the mythology which goes along with them. You're much more likely to remember the story of King Cephus, Andromeda, Perseus and Pegasus than you are to remember a bunch of random constellations. A really great book for that is published by The Nature Company (the science store in the mall) and I think the name of it was Star Watching, but I'm not sure (and can't put my hands on it right now). It has a two-page layout for every constellation and it's surrounding area of sky. For each part of the sky, it include all the hard science, the location of deep-space objects, etc., PLUS the mythology that goes along with the constellation. Many times it will include myths of cultures other than the usual Greco-Roman stuff we usually follow.

Amen to that!

I'm not talking about out-and-out fraud -- those folks should be shown the door I'm talking about giving short service to the minimum number of volunteers needed to start a unit by knowingly registering members with no intention of serving. DEs -- and if they're under too much pressure to meet production, then DFSs -- need to sit down with the full committee and make sure everyone is fully committed to the program. They need to have the same conversation with the COR and IH and make sure they understand they now own a Boy Scout unit, that they aren't just offering free meeting space. There are real responsibilites which go along with it. Executives have to sign off on new units. It should be part of their responsibility to ensure that the units have the best chance to suceed. Chartering a unit with one foot in the grave and asking boys to commit to it can is unethical. As is chartering a weak unit then pretending "volunteer recruitment" is a unit function. And if the pressure is for numbers, it's counter productive. District goals are based on growth over the previous year. So if you recruit a weak unit which fails, you have to recruit two units the following year. Makes no sense.

For some reason I have never been able to use the "Spin a New Thread" function, but this relates to the "No Leaders & No Help Coming" thread. Is it me or do we seem to have a run of threads featuring failing units with ghost committees and COs, no volunteers (or drunk ones) and one or two people trying to do everything? What has happened to the level of unit service in our councils? Where are the commissioners? The professionals are AWOL or -- as in AnnLaurel's pack -- seems to have caused many of the problems. I understand that some units just last longer than others. Demographics of a CO or whole community change and Scouting just isn't supported any longer. Or the driving group of parents age out and don't get replaced. Or the CM and Popcorn Colonel get caught en flagrante indelicato. But so many of these units seem to be set up for failure. How do DE's allow units to charter with committee member who are plainly only lending their name for the paperwork and have no intention of supporting the unit? Or COs who "are just letting the Scouts meet here Tuesday." I bought a $12 subscription from a telephone solicitation last week. Before the order could be processed, they put a "verifier" on the phone who confirmed my information and that I really wanted the subscription. Why don't Councils require the director of Field Services to meet with a the unit key three and verify that the DE has made full disclosure as to the commitment they are making to a new unit. AnnL's story about the guy given the boot as CM because of alcohol use only to be pushed back in as CC by the DE just floors me. Or the parent thread where there are 11 boys and only 1 WDL. SOMEBODY is on the charter. And I feel bad for the folks who write in here asking for help. We give the rundown on the standard strategies and we get replies like, "what's a commissioner?" or "you mean we have full-time professionals to help us?" These are not unit problems. These are structural problems mostly at the council level and above.

One pot meals are great for big groups, you just get bigger pots. But with the temp at a record-setting 98, it's hard to think about soups and stews. One particularly successful meal the boys made hobo dinners and the adults used the same ingredients to make a really nice beef stew (I think someone even snuck in a bottle of something and technically turned it into beef burgandy. Nice. Of course you can extend anything with a big pot of noodles or rice. We've got a pile of cookbooks at the hut, but one surprising resource was a crockpot recipe book I picked up for $4.95 in the checkout aisle of the of the grocery store. Everything translates well to a dutchie or just a big pot simmering over a campfire. And different stuff, unlike what you would find in a traditional camp cookbook, like Curry Chicken and Peaches. Okay that sounds gross, but we've made a couple of really good recipes out of it.

There's no liability issue. BSA insurance covers guests and prospective members. This kid is both. Why make an issue? Let the kid go. Maybe he will have a great time and reconsider his decision.

We did spag for a couple hundred at a Cub-o-ree many years ago. We were fortunate to have a dad who ran a restaurant in the pack help us out, otherwise we would have been hosed. Two tricks -- one, use a fresh pot of boiling water for every patch of spag. Seems wasteful and takes a long time to boil that much water. But if you reuse the water it gets so starchy the second batch turns to mush. Secondly, precook the pasta and refrigerate it in the large aluminum catering trays. You can even pour the sauce over top. Then reheat it in the oven. Or if you're cooking just prior to the event, as you prepare each pan of spaghetti, cover it and keep it hot in an oven until ready to serve. Of course I have no first-hand knowledge of this. The one time we did it we did as told by our expert and it worked out great. Others may have different advice. Edited to add: I just realized that by "c/o" you may mean campout, not chartered organization. I wouldn't do spaghetti for those numbers on a campout unless your in a pretty civilized site with running water and some big honkin' stoves. We've had luck with grilled chicken breast. Get the bulk bags from BJ's or Costco. It's not hard to march the breasts across the grill top until done and fairly easy to keep them hot, again in one of the aluminum catering trays. BBQ sauce optional. Serve them on a bun, or as a stand-alone entree. We had a couple of big grill sections we could put over a fire pit and cook a lot of stuff at once. You could use charcoal or a real fire. Most folks are amazed how much better anything tastes grilled directly over a real hardwood fire.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Question for you -- if your father served in Vietnam, two of your uncles were killed there and another was wounded and permanently disabled, do you think Memorial Day, Armed Forces Day and/or Veteran's Day may hold extra meaning to you? It did for my grandfather as this was his family's experience with the Civil War. To my grandfather, the Civil War was not some abstract historical event he studied in school. He grew up every day with a father who had served in the war and lost brothers in it. He had widowed aunts who lived nearby who his family supported. When your family is so dramatically affected by a event, the larger political or even moral issues tend to take a back seat. I grew up with Confederate Memorial Day as a separate holiday celebrated May 10 (the anniversary of Gen. Thomas Jackson's death). Although he was too old to do so, my grandfather always talked about needing to clean up the family cemetery where some of these folks were buried. That was the original purpose of both memorial days, to clean and decorate soldier's graves which is why it was originally known as Decoration Day. Never was there a time when my grandfather -- or anyone else I've ever known -- showed anything but respect for the U.S. Memorial Day. As someone else said, there have been too many wars since then not to honor those who gave their lives in those wars too. Today I honor Sgt. Harold Morris, my mom's uncle who rests in the American cemetery near Anzio, Italy, and my cousin, Captain Roy Williams, killed when his jet was shot down over Vietnam and who lies in the old family cemetery with my great-grandfather. I won't make a distinction between the service and sacrifice each generation made for their country.

Okay, here's a Memorial Day question for the Sea Scouts: How does one lower the flag -- um, 'scuse me, Ensign -- to half-staff on a yard arm? How about on a gaff? I know the flag/ensign is flown at the truck (highest vertical pole) with a yard arm (horizontal spar attached to the flagpole), but at half-staff it seems to me the flag would get tangle in the yard arm. With a gaff (an spar attached to the main pole at an angle) the US flag/ensign goes on the gaff. But since the reach on a gaff is usually fairly short, seems one would hardly notice the flag as half-staff. Or is there a completely different tradition to indicate periods of mourning with an ensign?

True..... if his main motivation were photos in the paper.

Sounds like your son had done a lot of good research and has a pretty good picture of what this troop is about. There's no excuse for the SPL and SM not to welcome the new boys. But for the sake of balance let me make a few observations: All troops have off nights. It's really tough to balance the interest/entertainment value of a troop program against letting the boys run the show. There are requirements for scouts to give presentations to the troop, and maybe the boys had decided that was to be the program for the night your son was there. Remind your son that while he's learning basic Scout skills, that nervous 13-year-old in front of the room is learning to lead a group and to make presentations. His day at the front of the room will come. Our theme this month has been fire safety. My instruction to the PLC was to make it exciting -- go burn stuff, blow things up -- not the same Sparky the Firedog bit they got in the third grade. So if you came to to last week's meeting, the local fire department was there letting the boys practice using a fire extinguisher to put out a fire and trying their hand at handling a 2" fire hose. Way cool. But, had you been there the week before, the meeting featured the boys sitting in chairs hearing a fireman discuss the "fire quadragle" (formerly a triangle, I didn't really catch what the new fourth leg is). No where near as sexy as putting out a barrel of flaming diesel fuel. But it takes both. You want to shoot shotguns, you have to sit through the safety lecture. You want to go whitewater canoeing, you have to watch Safety Afloat. I tell my Scouts troop meetings are to a team practice as camping trips are to the game. Yeah, we do our best to make practice/meetings fun, but there is some element of doing the hard, sometimes boring stuff which is required for the payoff of the big game or high adventure trip. I call it the Mountain Dew Effect. Kids see a 30 second Mountain Dew commercial with a bunch of kids riding their bikes down the side of El Capitan and think that's what high adventure is about. Hit the button on the remote and you're suddenly bungie jumping off the New River Bridge. But those commercials and similar HA trips take months of preparation and work to pull off. I'm not saying your son is falling for this. He sounds like a sharp kid who knows what he wants. But help him with a little reality check to ensure that his expectation for Scouting aren't to high for any troop to meet.

A Glossary!

What did the mom suggest? If she doesn't want you to include her son, it's a reasonable request. Less so if she wants you to stop mentioning birthdays all together. I think your old reference to PackSaddle is close to the heart of the matter. We should accommodate individuals, but the whole group shouldn't necessarily conform to their wishes. If you drop everthing objected to by someone, sooner or later you'll run out of things to do. On the mom's side of the ledger, I will say birthday announcements may be fun, but they aren't really a core part of the program. Now if she come back and tells you they are uncomfortable with the Pledge of Allegiance or with the boys making an oath (i.e., Cub Scout Promise) -- which, from what little I understand about the Witnesses, is not out of the questions -- I'd have to go to the mat over that.

"I only wish there was a simple piece of paper I could use as an answer." How about a rolled-up newspaper?

Don't confuse the "new program" with "poor leadership." The things you mentioned aren't really part of the program, new or old. Your standard response to this stuff needs to be, "can you show me where that policy is written?"

Put it on eBay. Some idiot will think it's worth a lot of money.