Twocubdad

Okay, Bob, I'm beginning to feel ignored here. I won't play the "You're Not Answering My Question" game and them make you guess which one of 20 questions I'm referring to. I'll politely ask it again: How do you reconcile your position with the bold-type policy that "Scoutmasters (et. al.) review these (forms) and become knowledgeable about the medical needs of youth members of their unit."

What has been the role of your pack comittee chair and Chartered organization Rep? As Bob correctly notes, approving and/or dismissing leaders is their responsibility.

Excellent post, BP. Welcome to the campfire. The value of the forms medical forms is not in responding to emergencies, but in planning appropriate activities. The detailed exam results of the boy with the hypothetical broken leg are not important, but I do need to know that he has a degenerative bone disorder and shouldn't be involved in contact sports. Unless all your parents attend every event, or your permission slips are written by a doctor and reviewed by an attorney, parents are not going to know every little detail of an activity on which to judge its suitability for their son. You say hike, meaning 10 miles a day at altitude with loaded packs, they assume an hour or so wandering around the local park. Even if you think you've explained things well, how do you know you've covered the bases? In the above example, how do you account for a pick-up game of capture the flag which wasn't on the original schedule? Do you really want to rely on an 11-year-old's judgement not being clouded by the fun of the moment and the need to fit in? Granted, it's not a perfect world and you're never going to be able to anticipate every situation. But with a little knowledge of you Scouts' health, you are in a much better position to help the parent evaluate the boys participation. The parent knows their son's health and has some understanding of the program. You know the program and need some understanding of the boy's health. Either of you working in the dark compromises safety. And frankly, whether you acknowledge it or not, even you bury the medical forms in the sand, you still "delve into the Scout's personal medical history" at some level. What is it you are communicating with the parents about? What's the difference in a parent communicating medical information in a conversation versus including the same info on a form? You are counting on a parent to volunteer in causal conversation that their son has a condition which may limit his participation in an activity they are unfamiliar with? What's wrong with having a formal procedure for the parents' to communicate that information to the unit? As a parent, I don't see anything on the Class 1 form which would raise privacy concerns. If my son has a condition -- especially if it is or could be life-threatening -- I want the leaders to know about it. It is only prudent that it be in writing. As a leader, I don't need or care to know all the details of a Scout's medical condition. But it is similarly prudent that I have a basic understanding of his limitations and the situations which may cause him problems. It also seems to me that the fact that parents have submitted a medical form creates the expectation that you have reviewed it and are aware of its contents. Do you make clear to your parents that all the medical forms are sealed and that any information they want you to know needs to be communicated to you independently? Lastly, I still want to hear how you reconcile you position with the bold-type policy that "Scoutmasters (et. al.) review these (forms) and become knowledgeable about the medical needs of youth members of their unit."

Thanks for the suggestion, FOG, but I'm planning to sandpaper my body and roll in salt this afternoon, so I won't have time for quite that much reading. (Yes, for the non in-duh-viduals in the audience, I stole that line from Dilbert.)

You guys are more interested in a good fight than making sense of the policy. Read the dang policy and look at the freaking forms! It's all there in black and white. First paragraph of page 48 plainly says the purpose of the forms is to, "provide youth members and adult leaders a better understanding of their physical capabilities." And as KS posted earlier, "Den leaders, Scoutmasters, team coaches, and crew Advisors should review these and become knowledgeable about the medical needs of the youth members in their unit. Forms must be updated annually. They are filled out by participants and kept on file for easy reference." Bob, I don't see how you reconcile your position with that. You also said that all this could be covered by asking the parents a few simple questions. How about these questions: How do we get hold of you if there is an emergency? Who do we call if we can't find you? Is your son on any medications we need to know about? Will he need to take them while with us? Does he require any special medical equipment? Does he have any medical conditions which would prevent him from participating in a particular activity? Are all his vaccines up to date? Any of this ring a bell? It should. It's the sum total of the Class 1 form. What's the difference between asking the questions verbally and giving a parent the form -- other than the fact that the form is uniform, doesn't leave out important questions, gives the parents a chance to think about their answers, doesn't rely on the leader's memory and creates a paper trail if one is ever needed? And FOG, what the heck is an "editorial thing"? If the policy wanted leaders to review the content of the Class 2 & 3 physican exam results, it would have repeated that clause for each level, or placed it in the general information of the introductory paragraph. Seems pretty clear to me. One more thing. Bob you've said twice that HIPPA doesn't apply to BSA. I know we've had a separate thread on that subject, but can you provide a brief source for that conclusion?

You guys are missing a key point in that the G2SS make a distinction between Class 1 medical forms and Class 2 & 3. Bold face BSA policy requires us to be familiar with the information contained on the Class 1 form. That info is generally limited to the kind of information you would need to know to supervise a kid -- allergies, medications, conditions which would prevent participation in certain activities, etc. There is no such requirement for the Class 2 & 3 info. The Class 2 & 3 information includes the results of a physician's exam. Not only is it of a more private nature, but it is also of less value to a non-professional. It seems reasonable to me that the Class 1 data be made available on a fairly liberal need-to-know basis, but that the Class 2 & 3 information be available only in an emergency situation. I don't know how this jives with the new HIPPA regs, but it seems an appropriate consent on the Class 1 form could cover the legal requirements. BSA could make this easier if they put all the Class 1 info on the front of one page, then make the additional stuff for a Class 2 form a seperate sheet, the two could then be separated, with the first page readily available and the second in a sealed envelope. Not only does this make common sense, but it is also in keeping with the G2SS policy. (This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Is BSA a right-wing political organization? It wouldn't be fair to make that call on the basis of this one bone-headed fund raiser. When we see how national responds to it, I think you will have your answer.

SPL, I feel we have reached the limit of where on-line advice like this is of any value to you. You have expressed yourself very well in this thread and have received some excellent advice in the process. But this is a problem you need to work through with your Scoutmaster. Make an appointment with him for just the two of you. Maybe you can print the thread out and give him a copy as a starting point. Best of luck to you and your troop.

I feel your pain, Eamonn. Our district pushes 30% total available youth, so meeting membership goals is tough. That needs to be factored in, somehow. Generally though, our biggest hurdle in meeting quality district status is units. Out of 50+ units in the district, there are about 10 mega-units at the top of the list, but then a constant turnover of the bottom eight or 10 units. Two percent growth in units should be only one or two units, but we usually start at recruiting eight units in the hole. All the numbers aren't in yet, but in terms of membership, it looks like we will make both the 2% growth and balanced growth numbers this year. Last year we made 2% on the strength of the Cub recruitment (yours truely was Roundup chairman, thank you very much) which was a good thing as we were way off on Venturers and right at break even on Boy Scouts. We did make quality district. Our Pack had a whale of a good Roundup this year, 50% ahead of last year and four times the number of Tigers. But I can already tell that in some respects we just dipped deeper in the barrel. There seem to be quite a few families with a very marginal commitment to Scouting. We've already had four Scouts drop. One moved out of state, two transferred to other packs because they didn't like our meeting schedule and one quit because the mom didn't think we were organized enough for her (I later found out we're her third pack in 18 months -- I hope the door didn't hit her in the butt!)

Wore mine last night.

Dave, I know that's the by-the-book answer, but what's the down side of leaving him on the charter as a Webelos leader until recharter time? Is there a compelling reason to change the registration?

I've been told it is done that way to spread out the work load for the council registrars. Can you say "temp staff"? But for the grassy knoll types out there, it also inflates the numbers. We know in September what boys have dropped out from the prior year. But because they aren't officially dropped until recharter they are included in the head count on Dec. 31 (or Dec. 35th as the case was last year). Our unit has solved the problem of the split year by collecting dues from ALL boys at the beginning of the school year. We collect and hold the registration fees until recharter time in February. Before, we collected dues in September and registration in January. Not only did that double the work for the secretary and treasurer, but the parents felt like they were being nickled and dimed. Families pay the same amount now, they just pay it all at once.

Rule #1 for den meetings is that anything done for more that 10 or 15 minutes will degenerate into chaos. This is especially true with activities which require concentration, like academic subjects and crafts. Of course the time will vary from boy to boy and den to den. Some kids will start bouncing off the wall after 5 minutes, some will still be on-task after 20. You'll have to learn the median for your den. One mistake I think many den leaders make is assuming you have to complete every project you start. Don't be afraid to stretch projects over several den meetings or to get the boys started on a craft and then send it home for completion. Nothing wrong with either approach. Don't work against yourself by getting the boys all riled up and then trying to calm them down. For example, don't use a wild game of tag as a gathering activity and then expect the boys to settle down for a somber discussion of the Pledge of Allegiance. Start the meeting quietly (relatively speaking) and let it build. By the end of the meeting, you should have them whipped into a frenzy, give them a good dose of sugar and then send them home with mom and dad.

Just curious, SPL, what has you SM said or done about the situation since the original incident?

Please allow me to ask a more basic question. Why is it a troop responsibility to provide boys an opportunity to earn the money to cover the cost of Scouting? I don't recall "fundraising" as one of the methods. I understand there are lessons to be learned in thrift, industry and economics, but can't a boy learn those lessons individually by mowing lawns and paying his Scout dues in cash? We have a couple local troops which are constantly raising money for something. One of them is a troop my son is looking at and one of my primary reservations about the unit is the amount of time they spend on fundraising. Scouting just isn't that expensive. Two or three bucks a week (especially if paid weekly) is not much money for all but the most needy families and would cover the annual dues and fees of most troops.

I don't want to disparage your Scoutmaster, SPL, but he done ya wrong, as they say around here. As has been noted before, you should not have been left to deal with the woman. That's an adult problem and should have been handled by adults. Hindsight is always 20/20, but there was plenty of prior indication that she shouldn't have been left at a PLC meeting without adult supervision. Secondly, you were given poor advice when he told to to ask her to leave if she caused a problem. Primarily because it isn't your place to ask an adult to leave a meeting and because it wasn't necessarily the appropriate way to handle the situation. Given that situation and instructions you were given, I won't criticize you at all. I do, however, hope you will learn from the experience. One thing you should consider is what was the appropriate level of response to the problem. To come out of the block asking the woman to "excuse herself" was HIGHLY inflammatory. A better response would have been to explain to her that the activity was already part of the agenda and that you were simply reconfirming it. If she continued aguing, you could have suggested she take it up with SM. If she still wouldn't let it be, you could have "tabled" the topic and come back to it when the SM returned. Frankly, someone would have to be extremely abusive before I would ask them to leave. Your goal should have been to diffuse the situation so you could complete the PLC meeting. While not nearly as satifying as tossing her sorry butt out of the meeting, simply putting her off would have allowed you to accomplish your goal. As I said, I'm not criticizing you in the least. You were left in a bad situation. And honestly, not many adults could have handled the woman any better. But take the opportunity to give some thought as to how you could have handled the meeting differently.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

I don't know that to be true, FOG. Can you cite a source? Personally, Stargaza, I think it's difficult to try and have a whole den of boys work on a single flag. Why don't you design it as a group (you sketching ideas and elements that the boys suggest) or let each boy design a flag and vote on it. You can then assign fabrication to a Scout and his parent. But an even better idea is to create a den totem. There are tons of ideas on the web and in the Cub Scout How-To book. Let the boys decide on an overall theme and make their individual nameplate. You or a handy parent can make the stand. Not only does that process involve many more hands, but the boys can display their achievements on the totems.

Are you sure, FOG? I thought it was Oscar de la Hoya.

The indian version of the story is the one I remember and is included in my old Wolf book. I joined Cubs in '67 which was the frst year that edition was used, and I believe the first year they dropped Lion and went to the current progression.

Adrian, you may have hit a sensitive nerve with that one. But for every Scouter-parent who gives their son an unfair advantage, you'll find 10 who are harder on their own son than they are the other Scouts and 100 who struggle with trying to be fair to everyone. My older son is a real dog-on-a-bone when it comes to advancement. He's usually the first one in his den to reach his rank advancement every years. I'm sure many folks assume it's because I'm helping and/or pushing, but that's their problem. When we moved to Webelos last year, I told him he had to have all his requirements signed off by the ADL, not me. I mainly did this because he is rather shy and I wanted him to interact with another adult. As a general rule, the other leader cuts him much more slack than I do. You are closer to the truth with you're last post. I look at it this way: why is the coach's son usually the best ball player on the team. Because ball is one of the main interests in their family. When the kid is looking for something to do on a weekend, going out and playing ball is the first thing they do. No one complains that the kid has an unfair advantage. They usually talk about what a natural athlete he is. At my house, when my sons tell me they are bored my first suggestion is the pick up your Scout handbook and work on it. They also generally have 100% attendance at all the meetings and activities. If I'm there, they're there. But isn't it funny that no one ever talks about a fast-advancing Scout being a "natural" and that you never hear any complaints about ball team being a "homerun mill."

I'm a professional, OGE. Don't try this on your own.

Holy smokes! I can't imagine having to rely on the records at the service center. Any relationship between an individual's actual accomplishments and the records kept by our council are purely coincidental. Rather, I would hope that the signature of a Scout and his Scoutmaster verfying all the advancement would suffice. With something as important as an Eagle application, I see nothing wrong with a phone call to verify a badge. But when the Scoutmaster says, "Yes, ma'am, he earned it. I have my copy of the card right here," that should settle it. I'm in a similar fire fight now trying to get knots for two den leaders in my pack. Council has no record of them completing training and no cards were ever issued at the time the classes were taken. In one case, I sat beside the den leader during one of the courses. The big problem here is that the person responsible for approving the knots wears underwear waaaaay too tight. I'll dance the dance for a few more weeks, but ultimately we'll buy the knots and present them ourselves.

I've not seen the magazine yet, but advertising pre-made cars sounds like a really dumb idea. What are they thinking? But neither do I see a whole lot of difference between parents who buy their sons pre-made cars and those who somehow see honor in making their sons build the cars all alone. Neither has taken advantage of the opportunity to spend time with their son. Pinewood Derbies should be about the Scout and his adult partner spending time together working on the car. I don't mind telling you that I probably spend a lot more time working on my sons' cars than most parents. I'll guarantee that my sons spend more time working on on their cars than most of the other boys. And it shows. they always come home with one or more of the design awards, which are voted on by the other boys in the pack. But in the process my boys have learned to use a bandsaw, drill press, air brush and a host of hand tools. They also have learned about the process of sanding, priming, and painting multiple coats to get a smooth finish. Is all this done with me sitting across the room watching the game? Heck no. It is a hands-on process, usually involving four hands most of the time. I'll also add that for the past two years, we've had two different dens over for den meetings where the boys and their parent use my shop to work on the cars. Most Saturday and Sunday afternoons during PWD season there are Scout families over using my shop.

I think there is a little more grey area than what Bob suggests. Most folks aren't going to wear unearned awards or participation insignia. I think everyone is fairly clear that a Philmont arrowhead or a Jamboree participant's patch is earned by participating in those activities. But what about souvenir t-shirts or ball caps from those activities? Arguably those aren't officially uniform pieces. A buddy brought me a stack of stuff from the last Jamboree. The patches and JSPs went into the collection, the hat I wear from time to time. I can also see where the Philmont bull may be a little confusing. I don't know the practice now, but 30 years ago the arrowheads were presented at the end of the trek with great ceremony. The bulls were purchased off the shelf at the trading post. Of course, I understand the bull to be an earned participant patch, but if it hasn't been explained to you, you may not understand that.

Because youth protective services is closed on weekends? Ed, you've become much too reliant on the little smiley faces to detect when people are being sarcastic!