blw2

speaking of camp staff...not attending Scouters....

I think I remember seeing an RV or two at our Camp Shands, parked in the back corner of a "staff only" area near the shooting ranges and near a bathroom.  This was several years ago at some Cub Scout thing...not at a summer camp.

...so maybe.....but I'm not aware of any sort of program" or promotion...

Seems like a great idea to me though.  As an RV'er myself I could totally imagine a retired full time RV'er and ex-scouter, willing to take a few weeks or more to work with scouts or support a camp in return for a free place to park....  I can totally see myself doing that if I were retired and my kids were grown..... teach a merit badge class or two, do a service project or two, hang out in a nice scout reservation for a few weeks....

I should have added earlier, that I'm fairly sure (but can't recall an exact case) that we have had times where a board was delayed because the scout was not in full uniform at the meeting.  It's not like the meeting started, just that the SM or someone would have just told him that he can't go for a BOR like that, let's do it next week....

Just when I thought I'd heard everything.  We ask the Scout to stand at the beginning, give the Scout sign and recite the Oath and/or Law, but other than that the Scout is seated.  It doesn't sound very reasonable to require the Scout to stand during the entire BOR.

  

I looked at the GTA (section 8.0.1.0) and it does not say anything about making Scouts stand during a BOR - though now that this has appeared in "print" maybe it will find its way into the 2019 version - but it does say this:

 

 

 

 

Having the Scout stand does not sound like a very "relaxed atmosphere" to me.  Well, unless EVERYBODY is standing, but I assume that is not the case.

No, that's not the case.  Typical set-up is 3 or sometimes 4 board members seated behind a table.  SM or ASM escorts scout front and center, and is introduced.

For young scouts, the CC or Adv chair will usually give them a little coaching schpeel about standing up straight, being formal and respectful, etc... try to make them understand that they can be relaxed, but they should remain formal.... not in so many words, but that is the gist

then ask them if they can recite the oath, law, outdoor code

then the questioning begins...

The problem with Boy Scouts is that we let people run it who aren't BOYS.

 

Stand for the whole BOR is a new one on me.  If you asked me what the ideal setting for a BOR was I would say some folks sitting around a campfire having a good discussion with a boy about his scouting experience.  My troop rarely achieves that, but it seems the further away from that we are the less well we're doing it.

exactly my thoughts as well.  

It wouldn't be sittin' around with feet propped up, munchin' on smores...

but comfortable and relaxed

for the less than ideal indoor setting, if it were up to me, I'd have the scout stand for the oath, etc.... then everyone would be seated, no table forming a symbolic wall, unless maybe if we were all just sitting around a table

I believe this practice was started as the troop norm long before the current folks were involved..... but they disagree with the idea of more relaxed settings.  They think it should be like a job interview.... to which i say I never had a job interview where I stood the whole time....  no matter, they don't get it....

regardless....while I don't agree with the practice, don't let this picture I've painted make it seem like the scouts are standing at attention getting dressed down military style....  It's approaching that in concept but it's not that rigid.  Not that bad.

this whole "uniform for BOR" thing is interesting to me.  Our CC and generally our troop "culture" is full uniform for BOR.

I sat on once where we sat and waiting for the scout, who was scrambling to borrow another scout's belt (and maybe necker and socks)

I was very uncomfortable with the idea that "we" were making this scout jump through those silly hoops, and while I didn't make a federal case of it I believe that I sad so to the board while we were waiting....  

I would have much rather have just run the board, and maybe steered a few questions his way about the uniform he's wearing..... just to provoke some thought and discussion.

We do some other things too that I don't really care for, such as making the scout stand the whole time...

hummm, come to think of it I think that may have been one of the last boards I did and it was a while ago. 

.....Want to swim? You need to wait until 4:00 pm after MBs.....

this is how the camp we went to was.... something like 4PM start.... but considering the scouts had to find their way back to camp first, and then perhaps a few duties there, maybe throw in some "homework" from "school".... then it was just about time to get the uniform on for dinner

I know that it's not about me or for me.... but even as an adult with really "nothing" to do i never dipped so much as a toe in the lake all week.... and I really wanted to get on that blob thing they had down there too!

I tend to agree with most everything above....except the clean underwear bit....

.....

- If the camp has a "first year camper" badge, recommend earning that.  It's like a merit badge in the sense that it requires the scout to try a little bit of every activity around the camp.  Earn a cool patch that will be treasured for decades to come.

.......

I'd qualify this one point...it depends!

A lot of people brag on these programs, and i fully can imagine that some can be great for some

My son went to his 1st summer camp last year, and signed up for the camp's 1st year program.

He's not going to summer camp this year, much to my dismay.....he had no interest.  

    that pretty much sums it up.

He had been a cub tiger through webelos, and was an early crossover into the troop & had been very active in the troop for many months prior so a whole lot of what they had covered he'd already done through webelos akela weekends, cuborees, den meetings, troop campouts, troop trainings, etc...

    so that program might have been great for a brand new scout that had never been exposed to 

they gave him a very limited selection of elective MB classes he could take along with the program.... most of which were not very exciting (for him anyway)

his day was filled with mostly classroom work.  Might have been in an open air pavilion, but it was still lecturing and classroom

the camp offered very little free time for things like open swim, patrol level or troop level activities, or just hanging with friends, etc...

I went along on the trip as a scouter for the troop.  As I roamed the camp through the days.... I saw a whole lot of bored to tears scouts sitting in pavilions listening to lectures.  Wasn't all bad though....some crafting where a few scouts looked interested and some action at places such as down at the waterfront or in "wilderness survival".

Personally,

I feel like 1 -maybe as many as 3 MB classes would be a good target (as long as there was plenty of freetime available for the scouts to choose on a whim.... let's go swimming...or let's try the climbing wall.... or ....) ....but that's just me, not him.  Everyone is different.

That's a good one, makes the cub uniform look snazzy in my opinion...hope he wears it proudly

my memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe that patch is also considered temporary,

   but I do remember for sure that it needed to be re-earned each year...at least it did a few years back.

so it's not like it needs to be sewn on solidly

thanks

I think I'll try on a pair next time I come across them

So looking at their web site

 .....you are suggesting the classic, and not the Cloud or Volv?

I bought a pair of chaco water shoes, outcross I believe... I like them well enough but bought them a bit too small in a bonehead moment.  good without socks as a water shoe but I wouldn't go large distances in them....

I took a glance, will read more later

I have been reading http://www.trailjournals.com/ lately

basically a similar type of daily posting format...except yours is much nicer in terms of formatting and photos.

I've also been watching some video blogs on you tube as well....

I'l plan on following them and cheering them on!!!

as a parallel, I have see these aggressive types push their ideas and choices so strongly....and carry in a majority rules mentality...that the "others" can get left out in a hurry.

so

one idea is to try to find ways of encouraging consensus rather than win/loose

I have encountered more than a few that will speak with an air of absolute authority about rules that turn out to be something more like "guidelines".

 

I'm coming up on a little over thirty years as an almost exclusively sandaled hiker. That has included some serious walking; deserts, mountains, long portages and includes The Appalachian Trail which was over 2000 miles long. a lot of walking... I don't want to seem like I'm bragging but I am seriously credentialed.  Maybe I better touch wood, but my foot, ankle, and leg injuries have been wearing boots. I started my switch to sandals in the bottom of the Grand Canyon when I realized that my fantastic Italian made hikers were doing me in.  Luckily I had a pair of Alp sandals tied to my pack.  My footwear had been depriving me of the feedback from the ground that I really needed. 

 

When I finished the AT I went to work as a hiking boot salesman. There is a lot of hype and a lot of fear being used to sell gear. Now my kid is old enough to dip his feet into Scouting, I want play a part in his experience but I'd rather not play along with the misinformation presented as absolutes. By all means practice your craft. Learn to walk in a world full of obstacles. Fill your mind instead of your pack.

a bit of a side track...but not really all that much I suppose

curious about which type of sandals currently you like to use for trail hiking?

I've been reading a lot lately about backpacking, and have been gearing back up hoping to do some again.  A long while back I read Andrew Skurka's book about if you pack is light enough trail runners are the way to go...light weight and dry faster

I tend to wear sandals a lot, and have been reading discussions about flip flops, crocs, and such for use as camp shoes and to a lesser degree for fording streams along the AT and other trails.  Since I wear flip flops in daily life when I can, it really strikes me that a good sandal would be great even for use on perhaps all but the roughest trail sections

So I'm interested in what you like for backpacking...

I think the thing to take away from the guideline term in this case is that this file is the graphic pullout in the guide to safe scouting, meant I think as a summary to the accompanying rules in that book that go into the detail

 

 

I would say that backpack prep, loading up the boys for a 15 minute hike into the woods and relying only on what they could carry would be an excellent adventure for Webelo boys.  Hot dogs on a stick over the fire beat boiled dogs on a propane stove any day.

agreed stosh

It doesn't have to be about the distance

I would add that i see no reason it would have to be on council property either.  Plenty of state parks have group camp areas with an established latrine and running water...so that it could be considered "front country"

I wish our scout troop would do this sort of thing...

ok, the way I read it is this

they can hike

they cannot overnight backcountry

they can do den overnights

so backpack between "front country" campsites and all is good in the world!

I'll admit to only skimming this lengthy thread, so perhaps this has already been addressed

But I think the crux of the question is a semantical error.

   I believe what was meant by the OP

      does it have to be a registered scouter present, or can just an average parent do?

         committee member in this case = to SM, ASM, or Committee Member

not a SM here, but I have taken great pains to give son space at meetings and outings.  He's wanted me a long on a few camping trips, and I probably would have gone on more except I am really making a point not to go even when i want to.  I might be in the room or area, but I am not interacting with him much or directing him at all.  

I had an interesting interaction a couple times.... when as Treasurer I have felt compelled to attend a meeting because I know I have business...but he was either sick or just didn't want to go...This happened mostly when he just didn't want to go, he strongly objected to my going as well.  I'm not sure, but I think he didn't want attention called to the fact that he was ditching.  I can't say I was joyed about going without him but I did.

We have some that are at every meeting and on every trip with their sons.....kinda like 3rd year WEBELOS, or really better than that but they are often interacting....

and others that are always there but do a fairly good job of minimal interactions, letting other scouters deal with their sons....

we use troopwebhost.  They started using it before my time, but I think only a year or two before...

......  Its easy for them to develop a martyr complex, too: "I've been doing this for 30 years, because no one else is willing to!"  Well, yeah, but that's only because no one's willing to do the job with you stepping on their toes and jumping down their throat every time they handle something differently than you personally would! .....

true enough..... true enough....  this edges on my experience

often it's not quite that toxic though.... which also nudges up against what I experienced.... nobody else is willing to do the job, only because the hole is already filled.  No hole, no reason to step up and fill it.

I can certainly understand the concept of the benefits of a "retired" scouter sticking around.

But I see it as a very dangerous and fine line to dance.... and a positive outcome would depend greatly on the specific personalities involved.

When I was in the pack, we had a cadre of several scouters in various positions that were burnt out.  They were coming through with their 2nd or even 3rd sons.  In some ways they were in a rut doing things the way they were always done.  They didn't want to do it any more and would step down and even step away into "inactive" committee positions or even no position at all for a while, but they would sometimes come back and second guess, re-engage, and instead of trying to help they would try or even take back over when things started to change away from what they did....even though they were still burnt out.  They just couldn't let go...

I spoke with a scouter once at U of Scouting about pack level positions.  I can't remember the specifics of their unit's practices for all positions., but they had some more or less standard practices such as 

The CM would be a parent I think it was maybe the 1st year WEBELOS den.   This would be a person that had been around a while so they knew the drill.

The ACM would come from the Bear Den, grooming for the CM position next year.

The retired CM would be in the second year WEBELOS den by this time.... still around for a few months to support, suggest, help....

I think other key positions had similar methods....

I still think the basic idea behind this is good.  The tenure is known up front and is clearly defined and has an end point.  Scouters aren't green and just dumped into major roles without support, etc...  The other ling I like is that it allows others to have a chance, brings in fresh ideas, etc...

We struggled with not having people willing to step up, so on that front this might have been difficult without enough volunteers to keep things moving, but I wonder if this was set as the expectation, things might have been a whole lot less "stale' and this might have actually worked out

Our troop scouters broke up the "patrol of new scouts" because they saw it as not working when most of them after a year had not made TF..... while many of their sons under the old program had made FC within that year. 

what happened is now we have groups of friends broken up and separated, and even a worse sense of patrol spirit or unity.

our units (pack and troop) generally don't retain.  I feel from what I have observed, that once the skin is out of the game the energy level for it drops a bit.

I see that as both good and bad.

The high energy parent will tend to be around too much.

I think we have a few higher ranking scouts that have never or perhaps rarely been on a scouting event without dad

but on the other hand the energy into being involved can be good for the unit, for obvious reasons.

We had one dad, that was SM, and also CC for the pack....long after he had any sons in the pack.  I admired his giving volunteer spirit, but he never attended pack meetings of events & we didn't have committee mtgs very frequently either...and therefore he wasn't as effective as an involved parent might have been.

I have thought a lot about these SM's that are perpetual.  It can of course be a good thing for the boys.  Thy can offer the experience, and will often be tempered a bit with a bit of "mellow" that comes from experience.

But they also are, in a way, in the way blocking a path for other highly motivated parents that want to be involved and want to make change for the good.  As it is with a troop, there are really only 2 or maybe 3 positions that can affect any real change.  If there are one or more of those key positions filled by someone for 10, 20 years or more.... that is a lot of parents coming and going through that pipe that never have the opportunity to discover that treasure of being a scouter in a key position.

Also, I see that some scouts remain in scouting because their parents are scoutmaster, or otherwise involved..... now it may very well be true that this is not a great reason for a boy to be a scout.... but at the same time he's a scout and will hopefully be getting at least some good from it.... now, how many scouts didn't stay in scouting because their parents didn't have an opportunity to fill a key position, but instead were relegated to some floater position in the unit so they didn't stick with or attend like they might have otherwise?

yeah, NFC "rebranded" their recruiting night a few years back.  They wanted us to use their documents

I really didn't see much of an issue there...but what I didn't like was that they forbid us from collecting pack dues or pack fees at the recruiting night.  We could only collect the national dues and Boys Life fee.  To me, that was just goofy and created issues.

I'm with those who say look forward not backward.  There is nothing here that you or anyone else can "fix".  Money was spent on a scouting activity by someone who apparently had the authority to spend it.  Maybe they shouldn't have spent it that way, maybe the authority wasn't so much authority as lack of any oversight that would have curtailed that authority.  Whatever the case, the pack is not going to get that money back.  No one is going to be able to rewrite what happened.  Your Pack has the money it has in the account today.  Set up a good structure for both accountability and transparency going forward.  

 

Every bit of energy you spend on what happened is going to be energy you cannot spend on the boys.  You might be able to show to someone that your view of what happened --- that there was some sort of either mal- or mis- feasance --- is what happened, but that will not change a bloody thing, and at the end of the process you won't feel any better about it than you do now.

 

Council cannot and will not get involved in this; likely your COR will not want to expend any energy on this.  Most COR s want first and foremost for their units to not cause them problems, make too big a fuss and they might drop the unit as being too much trouble.  If you can't let this go turn it over to someone who can, no good will come of your worrying it.

couldn't agree more.

I also agree that as CM you shouldn't have to touch the money.  It's not really your concern.  When i was CM I stayed as far from it as I could.

I didn't want this treasurer job at the troop, but that is where they needed the help and so I figured I would be cooperative.

You asked about a spreadsheet.  We use an online service called troopwebhost.  As treasurer I like it because it gives complete transparency.  parents can log in and see their scouts personal funds. Committee members can log in and see all the transactions that I'm entering, complete with attached receipts.  And it generates several different reports that are helpful.

A simpler approach might be something like google sheets, that can be shared with others....

But again, I mean this as a suggestion for your committee, not for you as CM to touch....

whenever I see mention of ILST, I think of this post

http://scoutmastercg.com/fifteen-minute-patrol-leader-training/

Now this was obviously written to the audience of an Adult Scout Master....but I wouldn't think there would be any harm in a SPL taking a look

Actually, that web site has a huge amount of great information you could look through, that you might find helpful.

Scouts cannot use mobile devices. They remain in the car. They can use while travelling but not at camp. If used as cameras, they may use them during the day but they are put back up at night. At summer camp they are not allowed, period. Violations are handled by taking away the device privilege at the next event.

 

If there's a need for GPS, we have our own units Scouts can use. Anything else they need they can either 1) use their Handbook or 2) bring a print copy of what they need (e.g., MB books).

 

Adults have more leeway. Why? Well adults have different requirements than Scouts, especially at summer camp. Some parents are on call, others use their devices to help the youth leaders managed things, some are used for comms devices in camp. 

Our troop does pretty much the same...except we don't have GPS's to offer, and I have never seen or heard of allowances for camera use.

phones ok on the trip but are left in the car for the duration.

Personally, if I'm ever asked I will say I am opposed to it as we have it.

Don't get me wrong, I see the point of it...and I strongly recognize a turn for the better with my kids when they are away form tech at home

but I see the value in the tools available to scouts, & even though adults have the "sometimes" legit excuse of responsibility it is hypocritical in my view

and besides the "legit" tools.... there is also teh entertainment value during down times.

Just because we old folks might like to see the scouts sitting around after dinner having fun together playing cards or checkers or some other thing, that's us projecting onto them.....and that aint the point of this in my view

.....

I'd find yourself an advancement chair ASAP.

My 2 cents....

I'd prioritize an outdoor committee person over advancement.

Someone to organize campouts or trips.

...because I see that as the core or most fun part of the program and it deserves attention....and the DL's probably track their own advancement anyway

What we did

the den leaders  pretty much handled tracking the advancement and awards for their own dens.  I tried really hard and eventually found a person to be our advancement chair, with the one of her primary roles of buying the patches and stuff and helping the DL's get organized with it.  My approach was that the DL's are among the hardest working scouters and I tried to do anything I could to help streamline for them.

Well the advancement chair would need the info way ahead of the meetings in order to arrange a trip to the shop, but the DL's would almost always wait till the last minute anyway....usually what would happen is A DL in need of stuff would message out 0-1 days ahead asking if anyone is going to the store...sometimes a person that happened by would message out I'm going does anyone need anything. Sometimes it worked but most times it didn't....but the advancement chair would be bypassed 99% of the time anyway so it didn't work.

For outings, we tried to "camp" 2-3 times per "school year" + 1 overnight sleep-in type trip...and would fish for a parent or scouter to chair the event (make reservations, organize the roster, make communications, etc..)  It got to the point where we camped less and did less because nobody would step up to do it.....but I found this sad because this is the thing the scouts enjoyed most and where memories were made.  For us the sleep in events were always the biggest hit  (sleep on the aircraft carrier, sleep under the shuttle at Kennedy Space Center, Sleep with the whales at Sea World, etc....).