T2Eagle

I have always been curious about the notion that not believing in God is automatically a violation of the Oath and Law. I'm an attorney, iin our legal system one of the general rules regarding duty is that you cannot breach a duty if you don't have the duty to begin with. So a scout who doesn't believe in God can promise to do his duty to God believing that if God doesn't exist then no Duty to God can be breached. And Reverent is about practicing your own beliefs while being respectful of others. So how is being an Atheist in and of itself de facto a breach of the Oath and Law?

There are a lot of things in BDs post that would concern me about the big picture of his program if I stayed within the bounds of Barry's world, but without seeing his in person, it would all just be conjecture. I must admit the discussion of BD having to turn away recruits seems in conflict with the discussion of the SPL who doesn't want to participate in the program. Its better for me to just consider the SPLs behavior to be the real issue and not a symptom of bigger program issues.

 

I do admit that letting the scouts off the hook for discarding a campfire brings up all kinds of red flags for me. But again I've done this long enough to know walking in others shoes lights things up a lot. I'm a very different person than BD, so it's appropriate that I would run a program different to achieve the same results.

 

Barry

I am posting this response in a separate box because it is a separate and tangential question. You mentioned that you had a morning program time and that afternoon program time was rolling around. Is your PLC allowed to decide they don't want that much programmed time on a campout, or is that a set expectation they need to fulfill? One of the things I found when I took over as SM was that the scouts sometimes, but not always, wanted bigger breaks from program and more free time, but they felt, rightly, that the adult leadership wanted their days fully programmed, like school. But for my scouts, their days, in contrast to mine as a kid, are always fully programmed: they go to school, they have after school and evening activities, they're assigned far more homework in terms of hours than I ever was, and even their free time is programmed, literally by programmers, because their electronic worlds are also parameters set by someone else. They have little or no time where they can just hang out and organize themselves into just having fun and goofing off. So now there are chunks of many of our campouts when the program says "running around in the woods having fun."

Contrary to some of the fears of my fellow leaders this hasn't led to any fall off in advancement, and the boys don't just sit around saying "I'm bored." Some guys will seek out others to work on skills, most of them end up thinking of something that has them running around getting fresh air and exercise, lots of times they end up off exploring wherever we're camping doing the discovery for themselves rather than being "led" to it, and yeah sometimes some guys will hang out playing cards for a while, but ask them when was the last time they even had a chance to do that at home.

So what are my fellow scouters expectations, can your PLC decide to program no program for an afternoon?

I'm an information junky, I always want to know the why of something. Why did he do this? Why was his behavior different from other times? I'd have a talk with him him and try to get to the why, maybe it was something with scouts and you can help, maybe it wasn't scouts and maybe you can help? And maybe he was just having an off day and hasn't yet learned how to fight through that either by motivating himself or asking for help and his response is to shut down. Then you can help him with strategies for dealing with that challenge.

Pick your battles is always good advice so I'd say give them an inventory and try to find some other option for storing your equipment. Maybe approach some of the local storage companies (there seem to be a ton where I live, I always wonder how that many people can have that much extra stuff) and see if maybe you can either get a donated or maybe deeply discounted storage unit.

My understanding of the Charter Agreement is that although the CO owns all the equipment, if the unit folds that equipment reverts to the Council. I've never understood how that works, but it is kind of a fail safe if the CO decides it needs to appropriate the equipment.

One suggestion I would make is that if you want to talk about his Facebook behavior then directly talk about his Facebook behavior, don't beat around the bush asking how he feels he lives the Oath and Law, don't put out bait and see if he'll bite. You want to talk to him about a topic talk about that topic.

 

Twelve year old boys are not so self aware nor so discerning that most of them will catch your hints. For the most part that path will leave you frustrated and him confused until he either stumbles on what you want or you finally give it to him directly.

BOR:"Can you think of instances where you didn't?" SCOUT: I said my homework was done when it wasn't BOR "When else" SCOUT I wasn't kind to my sister. BOR "Any others" SCOUT I wasn't reverent I didn't pay attention in Church. BOR "Any others?" SCOUT I wasted a bunch of money on video games. BOR "Any others?" A kid could list every transgression in the last six months without getting to the one you actually want.

I don't accept Facebook requests from scouts, mostly because I don't care to share my Facebook posts with my scouts. I also don't just accept every adult request, I restrict my "friends" to a pretty small group of family members and actual close friends. The other reason I don't have scouts as friends is because I really don't want to wade through all the inanities that kid's Facebook posts can be. I monitored my own kids FB stuff for a while and was struck by the sheer volume of drivel.

Interesting conversation.

What type of organization is it? Church or Religious? Lions, Elks type? VFW, Legion Type? What do they see as the value to them of being a Chartered Org? If you were making a request for more support did you feel you were offering them something more in return for their increase in support?

Had you identified a space you thought they had that would be suitable and easy for them to turn over to you?

Do you have any concern that they might want to use "their" new found camping gear for other parts of their organization?

One suggestion I would make is that if you want to talk about his Facebook behavior then directly talk about his Facebook behavior, don't beat around the bush asking how he feels he lives the Oath and Law, don't put out bait and see if he'll bite. You want to talk to him about a topic talk about that topic.

Twelve year old boys are not so self aware nor so discerning that most of them will catch your hints. For the most part that path will leave you frustrated and him confused until he either stumbles on what you want or you finally give it to him directly.

I don't see a problem here at all. The scout was looking for someone to be the third person on a BOR, one committee member couldn't do it that night and so a little later in the evening another member finished one task and assisted with the next one. It all worked.

We used to have a rule that scouts had to line up Sm conferences and BORs at least a week ahead of time, and that's a great idea, but on a regular basis one of the adults cannot keep the commitment and we end up scrambling so we scrapped the "rule" and if a scout can put together the members the same night he requests great, if not we try to more formally schedule it and have it happen the next week. The success rate seems to be about the same and we don't trip the scouts or ourselves up in unnecessary bureaucratic umm stuff.

If you need help it's always best to directly ask for it. Rather than have a meeting where you say "we need more people to drive" walk up to a few individuals one at a time and say "hey Joe can you drive this week, if we don't get enough drivers we can't go."

It is a lot easier to not raise your hand then it is to say no to an individual ask.

I had to respond because I had this discussion with a fellow scouter last year.

 

As a matter of keeping warm on a winter campout, a cot with a sleeping pad on it will keep you warmer than sleeping on the ground with a sleeping pad. It’s a matter of physics.

 

You stay warm by having your body heat the insulating layer of air surrounding it. On top and the sides of you this insulating layer of air is trapped in the insulation of your sleeping bag. Under you this insulating air is provided by your pad plus the compressed insulation of your bag. Keeping warm is a race towards equilibrium between how quickly the cold outside exchanges heat with the air heated by your body.

 

It’s a bit of an oversimplification but broadly there are three different types of heat exchange: radiant, conductive, and convective. We’re concerned here with conduction and convection. Again this is oversimplifying, but conduction usually occurs between objects that are touching, convection is between objects in near proximity. Conduction is much more efficient. Think of an oven, you can stick your hand in a 400 degree oven for a brief period and nothing bad happens, that's convection. But touch anything in that oven and it will instantly peel off your flesh, that's conduction. When you are sleeping on the ground you are trying to exchange heat with the ground through conduction; when you are on a cot you are exchanging heat with the air via convection. The ground will cool you off much more quickly than if you are up in the air on a cot.

 

We generally do two outdoor winter campouts each year, one is a “Camp Alaska†backpacking trip where we don’t even bring tents and build our own shelters, In the other we camp in a state park and the scouts stay in a big old MASH style tent. In that one the scouts sleep on cots.

 

On one of the “Camp Alaska’s†I had a scout string a hammock rather than build a shelter, the same principal applies, that’s warmer than sleeping on the ground. On the other hand I had a trio of first timers crawl out of their shelter one year complaining how cold they had been, I took a look inside, none of them had unrolled their sleeping pads, they used them as pillows instead.

I had to respond because I had this discussion with a fellow scouter last year.

As a matter of keeping warm on a winter campout, a cot with a sleeping pad on it will keep you warmer than sleeping on the ground with a sleeping pad. It’s a matter of physics.

You stay warm by having your body heat the insulating layer of air surrounding it. On top and the sides of you this insulating layer of air is trapped in the insulation of your sleeping bag. Under you this insulating air is provided by your pad plus the compressed insulation of your bag. Keeping warm is a race towards equilibrium between how quickly the cold outside exchanges heat with the air heated by your body.

It’s a bit of an oversimplification but broadly there are three different types of heat exchange: radiant, conductive, and convective. We’re concerned here with conduction and convection. Again this is oversimplifying, but conduction usually occurs between objects that are touching, convection is between objects in near proximity. Conduction is much more efficient. Think of an oven, you can stick your hand in a 400 degree oven for a brief period and nothing bad happens, that's convection. But touch anything in that oven and it will instantly peel off your flesh, that's conduction. When you are sleeping on the ground you are trying to exchange heat with the ground through conduction; when you are on a cot you are exchanging heat with the air via convection. The ground will cool you off much more quickly than if you are up in the air on a cot.

We generally do two outdoor winter campouts each year, one is a “Camp Alaska†backpacking trip where we don’t even bring tents and build our own shelters, In the other we camp in a state park and the scouts stay in a big old MASH style tent. In that one the scouts sleep on cots.

On one of the “Camp Alaska’s†I had a scout string a hammock rather than build a shelter, the same principal applies, that’s warmer than sleeping on the ground. On the other hand I had a trio of first timers crawl out of their shelter one year complaining how cold they had been, I took a look inside, none of them had unrolled their sleeping pads, they used them as pillows instead.

We're gaining Scouts coming in from units which are folding, but non of that. (Yeah, my first thought was "Cooking is that big a deal") If we did I'd probably find my Scoutmaster conference schedule fill through the end of the year.

I have to add that my experience with BSA computer systems has been uniformly atrocious. I have no reason to believe that their computer systems are very secure, I just hope they're too small a target for serious identity thieves.

These are Tiger Adults not actual registered leaders we're talking about. They are just filling out the parent section of the Youth Application. I just looked at it and it doesn't ask for a SS number. I'm pretty sure that they don't run background checks on Tiger adults and they don't require they take YPT. So it's as likely that the information is there as much because it's always been there as that there is an actual reason for it. I would just send in the application without the date of birth, you can ask a DE or SE why they need that information, and they'll probably give you a reason but it won't be the real reason because they don't know. Another possibility is to have them put in a generic DOB, I've done that on things like Facebook, I'll put in Jan 1st and my actual year of birth.

I am part of a Catholic sponsored unit. We do attend Mass on campouts if we're not going to be back in time for scouts to attend with their families. We have a few non Catholics as members; we let their parents decide if they will attend with us, if they don't want to they can hang out in the parking lot or back at camp depending on logistics.

 

This probably warrants a talk with your Pastor, I would be surprised if he actually supports the idea of non Catholics being required to attend Mass. It's likely that this is some interpretation or tradition that hasn't been properly questioned in a long time.

I am also pretty sure it is theologically repugnant to our faith.

Just because something has been going on for a long time and lots of folks have gone along with it doesn't mean it’s a good idea. You should seek some guidance from outside your unit, both at the Council and Diocesan level, to be sure you are acting properly in a critical area of the program and your mission.

I am part of a Catholic sponsored unit. We do attend Mass on campouts if we're not going to be back in time for scouts to attend with their families. We have a few non Catholics as members; we let their parents decide if they will attend with us, if they don't want to they can hang out in the parking lot or back at camp depending on logistics.

This probably warrants a talk with your Pastor, I would be surprised if he actually supports the idea of non Catholics being required to attend Mass. It's likely that this is some interpretation or tradition that hasn't been properly questioned in a long time.

Scouter99 identified the crux of the issue. Two deep leadership is required for the trip. That does not mean that everyone on the trip must be in the presence of those two adults every moment of the trip. There are any number of instances on a trip where scouts are outside the presence of adults - latrine, fetching water, fishing, etc. As long as they follow the buddy system and avoid one-on-one youth/adult situations, there is no problem.

So even if one adult and one scout somehow managed to be on a platform by themselves, it would be fine as long as this was "in view of other adults and youths", which would be hard not to do given that any platform has to be a straight unimpeded shot to another platform.

If I'm at the top of a climbing tower I don't have to have another adult climb up with me, or two scouts ascend simultaneously, so I'm not 1 to 1 with a scout at the top of the tower.

Received an e-mail today with this link for providing feedback if you were a leader at the Jamboree.

I can confirm part of the quarantine thing. We were one of several troops quarantined by the WV Health Department for a GI viral outbreak. They came in and bleached all our cooking gear and the nearby shower houses. Our troop was on its trek day (those well enough) and they isolated them at the top of the climb and bleached all their water bottles. None of which did any good, by a few days after the Jambo we were above 90% infection rate and gleefully spreading it to family and friends.

There was also a candidate for Nevada Governor who had some bats@#$ crazy stuff to say about a mass something or other threat/training. http://nevadagovernor2014.com/national-scout-jamboree-2013-false-flag-insider-warning-nevada-governor-2014-david-lory-vanderbeek/

In our Council we have the choice of either using the incentive prizes the company provides or an additional 3% commission. One year, when I was Cubmaster, we took the 3% and tried to do our own prizes thinking we could increase the quality a bit. It didn't work out, it's hard to buy those kind of things for anything like that cheap unless you're buying in huge bulk quantities. The Cubs actually like getting the flashlights and knives that constitute the first few levels of sales and are what most boys end up with, so we went back to prizes. In the Troop we don't push popcorn, but we allow the scouts to sell if they wish, and they get the full commission put into their individual scout account, none of them are interested in the prizes.

I didn’t receive any forms for providing feedback before I left the Jamboree. If anyone knows where I can get one please post.

Both I and my scouts had a wonderful time over all. I have been thinking a lot about my experience and what I think could be done differently. In no particular order here are my reflections.

The enthusiasm and dedication of the volunteer staff cannot be overstated.

Every computer system I encountered was poor: the dashboard that remained stubbornly stuck at 50% from when I first registered until it dropped to 0% after I checked in, the activity registration that was often down, the payment system that I could never get to work, the medical system that lost all the info from my and both my sons’ accounts, the list of curriculum activities on site for my scouts that wasn’t correct. For a supposedly high tech jamboree there was no meaningful use of the bar coded credentials, and the $0.99 app was klugy and provided almost no functionality.

Too many of my scouts spent too much time in line for activities, often not even getting to do the activity after all the waiting. Grin and bear it isn’t really the answer to this. A Scout is Thrifty, and that should apply to how to spend his/her time, hours in line is not thrifty.

Staffing and staffing levels: I have about a dozen friends who were on staff, most of them veterans, between the cost, the time and effort spent getting to their areas, and the overall difficulty of the experience, I think they are going to need to better accommodate folks to get the numbers they need.

Transportation: hiking up and down mountains as an activity is fun, hiking up and down campsites and gravel trails because that’s the only way to get there is the reason we have invented every mode of transport from the wheel to the jetliner. Some sort of shuttle system is needed both for the sake of thriftyness and for staffing.

Over all a great experience, but there is a lot of room for improvement.

VS,

I remain skeptical. I spent the first full day of program volunteering at the canopy. No one there was aware of any type of recruiting other than looking for the traditional scouter and hoping they had an extra month in their lives. The one exception were the WVU students who, if they took the course at school and came to the Jamboree, were the only volunteers not to have to also pay the $850. BSA being BSA, they were asked to pay for their own duffle.

The first day that they held training programs and didn't have 800 plus folks signed up the problem of a volunteer shortage was evident and was never going to get any better. I was told that the training also isn't transferable, certification on Bonsai's equipment doesn't mean certification on other manufacturer's equipment, and vice versa.

Both I and my scouts had a wonderful time, and I certainly don't doubt the goodwill and work ethic of the folks doing the planning.

I will add that on the idea of adults line hopping I never saw that and never had a scout describe it to me. On the contrary, I did see adults volunteer to get out of line and give up their spots in things like whitewater if it was necessary to accommodate scouts.

The problem with inadequate staffing, especially in areas that required specialized skills, was a very real problem, and one that must have been obvious a long time before the Jamboree, probably a year out.

The BSA did really continue to hype things like zip line when it was eminently clear that that very few scouts were going to experience it. Frankly the idea that they were going to find 800 plus volunteers (the number necessary to open all the zips) who would be able to spend two weeks training and then two more weeks at the Jamboree was beyond wishful thinking. The better choice would have been to hire that many college students for a month to provide the necessary staffing levels. The BSA does have a habit of getting one idea in its head and not being able to adjust to reality.