SWScouter

there was a recent change that added the minimum age for earning AOL. In addition to time you must be a minimum of 10 yrs old now.

That is not true. AOL requirement 1 is as follows:

Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge.

This means that if a boy completes the fourth grade a year earlier than normal (age 9) he could earn his AOL before his 10th birthday. If that is the case, he will have to wait until he turns ten before joining Boy Scouts.

SWScouter

The last requirement for a Scout to qualify to go on an OA election ballot, is "Scoutmaster's Approval." This is where the Scout in your scenario would not "qualify." IMHO.........

sst3rd,

I agree. I feel that a lot of the complaints voiced in this discussion are that SMs have added boys to the ballot that really shouldn't have been to begin with. Unfortunately, it also appears that in some places, the boys have elected unworthy scouts.

This seems to boil down to training issue with the SM, election teams, and scouts.

SWScouter

So how can a unit leader say the Scout was active and demonstrated scout spirit for rank but not for the OA? Are not these standards the same?

Here's one scenario, e.g., a boy is active in the troop, attends summer camp and lots of outings and shows lots of scout spirit and earns his first class rank. For sake of argument, say he earns the rank shortly after his troops OA election. Shortly after he earns first class, he basically stops attending outings and rarely attends troop meetings. When he does attend them, he tends to be more disruptive than helpful. When the next OA election comes around, he still meets the camping requirements, and of course, has reached first class. Should the SM submit his name to the OA ballot? I don't think so, but if his name is on the ballot, I would hope the troop would not deem him worthy of election.

SWScouter

This is my third year as den leader for my son's den. I started when they were wolfs. The first two years we met at the assistant den leader's home. This year we are meeting at the church hall. I think she got tired of cleaning up her home (both before and after the meeting ). I think I liked having the meetings at the home more than the hall. Having them at the hall is much more convenient for most all of us though. The boys live in quite a large area, probably 20+ square miles. I live about 12 miles from the school/church. It's the closest Catholic school I can enroll my children in. The parish is the CO.

I've never had too much trouble keeping the boys under some manner of control. I can tell the difference when not all the boys are there, things seem easier. They especially did the first two years with nine in the den. Now there are seven and things do run more smoothly. I think six boys would be a great size for the den.

We never had parents stay at the den meetings before this year. Parents still usually don't stay. Maybe one will stay and keep off quietly to the side. I really don't want them to get involved at the meetings. On field trips and campouts is a different story. I really do want/require their help then.

I think boys will behave when they know that they should be behaving. They will also do what they think they can safely get away with. The boys in the den at your church obviously can behave, they did once the priest made his presence known. Priests seem to have quite a way with promoting good behavior.

SWScouter.

Okay, I'm getting confused here. First I'll try to clarify some things.

Scouters are not elected, they are nominated. Yes the number of nominations a unit can submit to the nominating committee is limited.

ps56k wrote, "We have had several scouts elected to the OA who have not even been to a troop meeting in several months." I submit that the SM never should have marked them as Bob White wrote, "deserving". In other words, the troop should not have been voting for them to begin with.

My real confusion is what "active" as an arrowman really means. My understanding (or lack thereof) is that how active an arrowman is, or will be, in OA activities should have absolutely no bearing on whether he is a good arrowman or not. To me, whether an arrowman is active or not does not depend on whether he attends any OA activities. An arrowman that is providing service and being responsible to his troop is completely fulfilling his obligation to the OA.

I get the feeling reading this discussion that being an active arrowman means that he should or must be active in chapter or lodge activities. That's what's confusing me.

Another thing that's confusing to me is the concept of how the OA membership is becoming diluted. What is meant by this? Does it mean that there are too many members? Or does it mean that there are a lot of members that are poor arrowmen? If the caliber of arrowmen is good, I see no problem with the former. I do have reservations if the problem is the latter. If that is the case, then the OA needs improve the election process. By that I mean. e.g., doing things such as better training SMs on what it means to choose boys for election and better training the election teams.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with all this. I just mainly take issue with what the term "active arrowman" means and how it is being bandied about in this discussion.

SWScouter

Wow, nldscout actually got that out without stuttering!

Just a point of reference here. There is no Assistant Tiger Cub Den Leader position. For Tiger Cub dens, there is the Tiger Cub Den Leader and an adult parner for each tiger cub.

So what position did your "Assistant" register for?

SWScouter

I have a Garmin Etrex. It works great on the trail. I wouldn't mind upgrading to an Etrex model with topo maps though not enough to actually spend the bucks. I've also done some Geocaching with it http://www.geocaching.com

Here's what I'd like to see happen and how I want to start making better use of my Etrex. Basically, most topo maps haven't been updated for years and the hiking trails tend not exist or not match the trails on the maps. I'd like the trails to be hiked and their tracks recorded then overlayed on topo maps so it can be easier to see where the trails are. It's fairly simple to overlay tracks on the topo software that, e.g. National Geographic has. We just need to get a central repository for this and someone to manage it. (Yes, I know, Natl Geo has a map exchange, but it's not really maintained. At least for Arizona).

This coud really be helpful when on the trail. Especially a trail that is hard to follow. Using a map to get where you're going and know where your're at is one thing. Trying to follow poorly marked trail not shown on a map is another.

SWScouter

Way back when I was 16 or 17, a buddy and I planned an overnight luxury backpacking trip. We planned on camping at a lake near Snoqualmie pass in Washington. We packed in steaks, a pineapple and planned on catching trout to supplement our meal. I don't think I ever ate more on a campout. We also decided how wonderful it would be to sleep in hammocks.

We were pretty much laden at the start of the trek. It wasn't a long hike, maybe 4 or 5 miles, but it was mostly all up. It took us a good chunk of the day. Well the trip was in the late spring and the higher we climbed the more snow there was. After awhile we had a lot of trouble following the trail. Finally we came upon the lake and decided we needed a drill if we were going to do any fishing. Ice skates were more appropriate than fishing tackle.

We set up camp and proceeded to cook and eat and eat and cook and pretty much be complete gluttons. Our goal was no food left for the camp robbers. Our feast complete, our aim met, the evening chill became down right cold. We climbed into our hammocks anticipating deep rest while our olympic repast settled.

The starlight sparkled on the snow and frozen lake. It was calm and beautiful. Oh what a wonderfully uncomfortable and restless sleep we had. We didn't bring our foam pads since we would be sleeping on a comfortable hammock. The air was cold and attacking us from all sides. I'm sure the lake moved it's ice ever closer to us through the night. We hung ourselves up in an ice box. If we had only brought our insulating pads instead of the pineapple.

Finally the sun arose and it's warmth started to thaw us out enough to once again cook and eat and eat and cook as only youth can. This time we did allow a camprobber a pancake.

To this day, I have no problems eating steak, pancakes, or even pineapple. I still have the hammock but I've never used it since.

SWScouter

Bob White,

Watch the presidential debate tonight. I anticipate you will hear "I have a plan" and "my plan" innumerable times.

SWScouter

Venture patrols are a great way to enhance a troops program, but like everything else it takes planning. You can make it work or you can make it fail depending on whether or not you have a plan.

You know, it's very refreshing to hear "you have a plan" instead of "I have a plan"

Without looking it up, so I hope I won't need to eat crow.

CA is for Assistant Cubmaster similar to how SA is for Assistant Scoutmaster.

SWScouter

First, I am not nor have I ever been a SM.

1. No. This is service for becoming a member of the OA. Also, I'm surprised that only 5 hours of service were performed.

2. Yes.

3. No.

4. No. To me, this is "normally expected" of his religion as part of confirmation.

5. Probably not. I might approve it for future ushering activity though.

SWScouter

Hey Eamonn, though I wouldn't know, I suppose it's better to look like a dork than to be a dork.

Boy ScoutNut, you sure have a case of the stutters

I like troopmom's suggestions too.

To me, first the pack committee needs to become functional. Once the committee is functioning to some extent, things should start improving.

So, how to get the pack committee functioning. First, it needs a real CC, not a paper CC as the COR currently is. I suggest that the troop committee infuse the pack committee with some of its own. Obviously this may be difficult, but seems like a good way to directly help the pack. This could just be temporary, like an interim CEO. The main thing is the pack needs leadership and your troop may be in a good position to supply some. Since there really isn't a pack CC and the troop committee has a reasonable relationship with the COR, I doubt there would be much trouble having the COR assign someone from the troop as the pack CC.

One of my Eagle patrol members is putting together a woodbadge site and has the Gilwell song there. I don't know where he got it from.

http://www.woodbadge.ws/songs/gilwellsong.html

JD,

I would start with your council. They should be able to give you some contacts, especially if there are any religious committees associated with scouting. For example, in my council there is an Interfaith Committee. It has published a wonderful booklet, I think called, "A Scout is Reverent." It also organizes a Ten Commandment hike every year, the day after Thanksgiving. It's about a five mile hike that stops at different churches of different faiths. Also, the council service center or scout shop may have religious emblems work books for various faiths. You could either purchase a few or browse through them to get a better idea of what the different programs are like.

I think I would also find out what faiths the boys in your den practice. That way, you can limit the scope of your search. Also, it seems that several of the Christian religions use the same RE program, so there may not be as much RE diversity in your den as you may think.

Hope this helps.

SWScouter

Sylvia,

I would work through the parishes, not necessarily the troops. I'll assume the CO for your troop is your parish church. There are probably some boys in the parish that are in a different troop than the parishes, or a nearby parish may not have a troop. If, e.g., you're planning to counsel for the Ad Altare Dei, advertise in your church bulletin and those of the nearby parishes that don't have a troop. If a nearby parish has a troop, then talk to that troop and see if it is offering the program or not.

I hope that helps. By the way, I'm a trained Catholic REC too but I am involved with Cub Scouts right now.

SWScouter

Way back when I was a scout, there were a few snipe hunts. I also remember going on a hunt for sidehill gultchers. A mythical bird with one leg longer than the other, that tends to hang out on the sides of hills. Bagging a left-sided gultcher is quite a prize because it is much rarer than a right-sided one. I never did learn how Pope and Young scores them though. Yes, I remember disappointment in not even spotting one, especially when the older boys did! In general this was simple pranks that never really caused any problems.

One prank I remember though, really did get out of hand. We were on a bicycling hike on San Juan island up in the San Juans of NW Washington state. At one campsite, the young scouts, me included were blindfolded and led on a short hike. This was in the evening after dark. I'm not sure how many of us were blindfolded, maybe four. Anyway, I was loosely tied to a stone and the others were also tied up to something like a stone or a tree. This was all surrounded by great fanfare and fun and how it would be a great experience in learning scout craft, how to find our way at night, etc. I'm sure you can imagine all the reasons used to entice us to our pending doom. Well, back to the story. We're all tied, and told to wait a minute before freeing ourselves and finding our way back to camp. It's very dark, all's quiet except for the croaking frogs. I'm getting myself untied when I hear a death curdling scream from one of my comrades in knots. I can still remember this scream, and I hope I never hear one filled with such fear again. He loosed himself and found himself staring at a tombstone. He was tied to a tree that had grown up from the grave. Me, I was tied to a tombstone and found myself sitting on the grave and looking at a broken down moss covered picket fence. What an eerie feeling that was.

I really don't remember much of what happened afterwards. No one was physically hurt. I have no idea how the adults handled the situation, if at all. They may not even have known it happened. I do know that the one boy didn't stay in scouts very long after his fright. This may have had an impact on that, I don't know. I do know that it really wasn't talked about much at all afterwards and I don't remember anything like that ever happening again. It really was very poor judgement by the older scouts.

The thing about pranks, such as snipe hunts or canon reports, is that they set the tone that doing things to humilate your troopmates is okay. This is all done in good fun. But it's not good fun. Good fun is never at the expense of others. It's bad fun, and bad fun will never reflect well on those having it. And bad fun also tends to feed on itself and escalate more and more til someone really gets hurt such as I recounted above.

SWScouter

BW, I hope that is what is planned though I get the impression that it is not. Mostly from what happened at the Leader Specific training and how the Outdoor training was advertised there. Again, I shall touch bases with the training chairman.

SWScouter

Thanks for the replies, they basically confirmed my understanding of the two courses. As I said, it appears that the two courses will be combined as one and the Webelos leaders will be considered trained for Webelos outdoor activities and likewise, SMs and SAs will be considered trained for their outdoor program.

I think I need to talk to the District Training Chairman and find out what's up and voice my concerns. A similar thing happened a couple of weekends ago with the Cub Scout Leader Specific training. All the Cub Scouters were put in a room and received exactly the same training, a four hour session. There was no specific leader breakouts at all. So now, I'm trying to figure out if I really am Webelos Leader trained. If so, I imagine I should also be Cubmaster trained, Tiger Leader Trained, etc. This seems like a disservice to the district's leaders.

Sorry if I'm ragging a bit. I feel training is very important and am planning on helping with the training committee but shouldn't I be able to get myself trained first?

SWScouter

Hi,

I'm curious what the differences are supposed to be between the two courses, Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills, and Webelos Leader Outdoor Training. I'd like to know because, mid October, my district is offering the outdoor training, i.e., the above mentioned courses and BALOO. As far as I can tell though, Webelos leaders are being told to attend Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills.

So, if anyone here is familiar with the syllabis for both courses, would you compare and contrast them.

Thanks,

SWScouter

Thanks Cajuncody, this made my morning!

SWScouter

Thought you might enjoy this article: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/gilbert/articles/0825gr-thomason25Z12.html

SWScouter