SueM

Gonzo1,

As I explained to you privately, you misread what I said (or meant)in the post..what they were doing what was called a "BoR" for -MB's-...a separate thing from advancement..we certainly do BoR for advancements.

Our Council (and note I said -council-, not unit!) has not used Blue card for as long as I've been with the troop, which is 5 years now, nor do we HAVE real MB counselors. (a list to choose from) so we're basically on our own as units!! Our troop meetings used to be mainly focused on doing MB work there. I only do that now on a RARE occasion now and when I do, boys are often miffed because I expect them to follow the requirements as stated!!..they were not used to really doing that! We also now have an adult leader to whom the boys are to report to before starting a MB independently...and who they are supposed to check in with, with their progress. Is it a perfect troop? Heck no!! But changing "traditions" is a tough uphill battle..especially for us female SM's...and we are working on it one step at a time! Progress only happens as fast as those involve WANT it to happen and quite frankly...many of my boys could care less about it.

Turning a troop around is NOT an easy thing to do...I get very discouraged when I hit the "next" brick wall. (and anyone who is in this same situation knows exactly what I mean) I did not ask to be put into this position..I had no choice! No one else would do it. I sure as heck am giving it my best shot though, as imperfect as it is.

Sue M.

John-in-KC,

Congratulations!!! Your "delays" sound like what I went through...I finished my ticket the first part of October..would have really liked to have gotten them at our November Outdoor Dinner & Court of Honor but was talked out of that, so the Dec. Roundtable was the next opportunity..my close friend who was supposed to present me with my beads had to go out of town on business for that date so I went for the District Dinner in January...that got postponed due to weather until Feb!! I was beginning to think I would never get them. It worked out very well though in the end as 2 of my original BLT patrol mates also went through WB with me (in other patrols) and they had both finished their tickets too so the 3 of us got our beads together that night.

Sue M

Beaver SR-605

Gonzo1,

Just as a clarification..Though there is a lot of classroom work, it's true, there is certainly an element of outdoor skills in WW-21st. The 2nd weekend is meant to be a backpacking experience. The patrols have to plan the whole thing by themselves...backpack in all the equipment they'll need, cook and eat meals at their campsites and also FIND their campsites using a map & compass or other ways. What we did was to go in with handheld GPS systems and determined the coordinates for each campsite..then also added other waypoints to lead them on a journey to various places where they'd need to be over the course of the weekend and program them into the GPS's...like where the bathhouse was, where the interfaith service would be held, etc. Each patrols trail was different but the same and they crisscrossed each others' paths so no one could start out knowing where their camp would be. They ended up then at their discreetly marked campsite. They had to carry their backpacks for the whole trail, which took about an hour or so. Each patrol is mixed so that there are Boy Scouter and Cub Scouters as much as possible so that they can all learn from the experience..either through teaching or learning. Most of even the experienced Boy Scout leaders didn't know how to use the GPS systems so it was a way to teach them a new skill too. We even set out some geocaches for them to look for in their free time if they so desired.

And btw..I do agree with you on the watered down MB & rank advancement requirements! I am trying to deal with boys who came in the troop on the "gimme" system and they don't want to do any work for anything!!

Sue M.

>I took WB in 1994, well before the current cirriculum of ?>even having cub scout leaders participate.

>When I took it, it was considered something like advanced >scotmaster type training. It was afterall, Boy Scout Leader >Wood Badge. It was something I looked forward to for a long >time. It was a great experience and a life changing one too.

Ah...this explains a lot to me! WB is not advanced outdoor training...there are many outdoor skills training courses for both BS's and CS's including a specific Advanced Outdoor Skills course. Many "old school" WB'ers who have not had experience with the new course feel the same. We had one on staff at the last course..he came out of it feeling totally different!! WB 21st Century is leadership skill specific and designed to help you make the most of your position, no matter what it is...whether it's SM,CM, DL, ASM, Venturing, Committee Member or even on the District level. It's about the SCOUTING program in an overall sense. And even in 1994 there was a separate WB program for Cub Scout leaders! But combining them also helps them (among other things) understand what they are preparing the boys for as they cross over into the BS program.

While I agree that there are some totally "unworthy" (for lack of a better description!) WB'ers out there, they are the exception and not the rule!..and you're going to find those kind of people in ANY group! The value of those beads around your neck is not in the impression that they leave with others when they see them on you, but rather a reminder to yourself that no matter your skill level in life, you CAN make a difference in the life of a boy in some small way! And isn't that why we do this thing called Scouting in the first place??

Sue M

I agree with Lisabob...Why should the Cub Scouting program suffer for the lack of WB trained leaders?...which it IS doing in many peoples' opinions! If you wait until the leaders are Web II leaders..they can be almost gone from the pack before their ticket is finished so while what they do may benefit the pack in the short term..how does it benefit it in the long term? There is a real need to get CS'ers trained as early as possible so that they can use what they learn to really make a difference for the long term. You can still enjoy the boys and perhaps in the process even make a greater contribution to not only the pack but to the boys themselves.

WB is/was not meant to be some elitist club...everyone can gain something from the -life- skills that are taught there.

Sue M.

Brent...I have not forgotten about you..just have been busy..will try to send them tomorrow.

Sue M.

Most likely if you sign up for WB..which I think is an excellent idea for you to do NOW and not wait 2 years! There is a real need to get Cub Scouters through the training BEFORE they get to the Webelos group in order for Cub Scouting to better benefit from it. You'll most likely be give a pre-course questionaire. The questions are designed to make you think, but not necessarily share those thoughts with anyone else. One of the most important questions is something like "Where do you see yourself in scouting in 2 years?" If you can answer that well, it will help you begin to define your "vision" and in doing that, will also help you come up with ticket items.

What WB -should- do is to give you the tools you need to help find ways to "inspire" those other adults within the pack to -want- to help. Don't try to do it all yourself or you will hit meltdown before too long...promote helping the troop as an expectation. Start asking other parents to participate in and help with small things at first and if that doesn't work, there's always the "tag..you're it!!" way of working!

Sue M.

I used to be a Beaver

My thoughts and prayers go out to the family.

Sure! I'll send them to you when I can

Sue M.

While your suggestions are good and quite workable in the GS program, IMO, they would not work well within a Boy Scout unit setting, where they are using (or is trying to use!)the patrol method. If the trouble makers are all in one patrol, they shouldn't be split up. Boys also need to be taking care of the disclipline themselves for the most part, though the adults can offer suggestions. The patrols are often also mixed ages too, where as in GS, the "ranks/grade" are age based, so you wouldn't have brownies & cadets in the same group working with each other, as it might happen in a Patrol where you might have a Tenderfoot and a Life scout in the same patrol.

That said, I have done written contracts with scouts at times, addressing specific behavior issues (like learning to keep his hand to himself) and the consequences if he couldn't do that.

Sue m.

scotteng,

Before you put too much work into doing the MB list...there is a Troop Resources Survey in the Troop Program Resources which has them all already listed on the back of the survey. The survey itself might help you find other sources of help for your troop too.

I include one in our new scout information package for parents to fill out.

Sue M.

I have a 3 step "question" that I will ask my scouts, that I tell them that they should not only answer truthfully about themselves, but that they should also expect ME to be able to answer to them truthfully as well!!

1. Can I trust you to do the right thing?

2. Are you committed? (to the troop, doing the right thing all the time, etc.

3. Do you care about me?

These 3 things to me sum up the spirit of the Scout Oath and Law. You should have seen the puzzled looks on some of their faces when I asked the 3rd question the first time..

As you know gwd-scouter..we have been kind of living parallel lives in our scout troops. We also do not have (for the most part) MB counselors and boys mainly work on MB's either at Summer Camp, MB Universities or other such things. In our troop, we traditonally used to do "Boards of Review" (that's what they called them mainly..we've kind of changed that to "MB Summaries" now and only do them for MB's that the boys work on independently without a counselor of any kind. It's not a retest, but just having the scout sit down and tell some adults what he learned doing the badge, so that we can have SOME idea of whether or not the requirements were even -attempted- to be met. I don't see it as adding requirements..it's just a conversation about the MB mainly and we are moving away from them as much as possible. It really is a hard transition for them to understand the way things are supposed to be done. For example, I recently started to do Family Life with my boys...I have had several come and said "I did this (or that) with my family in the past" and not really understand why I have an issue with it when I look at the requirement and it says "discuss with parent AND MB counselor" BEFORE doing something..and why I may not accept that. I also have brothers who try to piggy back on each other's work and don't understand why they both need to do the same things at home! I am trying to be as close to a real MB counselor as I can be in the process so that they learn how it should be done. It's another of those roadblocks to the process that take some time. And yes, I -may- be being a bit tougher on them then many MB counselors are, but I am trying to teach them that they need to strive for excellence in what they do and not to accept mediocracy... which has been the norm! I want them to get something from what I am teach that they can hold on to.

Sue M.

As always E...another very thoughtful and thought provoking post! It is funny how your priorities and interests change over time. I never thought I'd enjoy working with the adult training more than the boys, but am finding it much it much more rewarding than I had expected.

OT..but great Steelers game!!!

Sue M.

Though it really doesn't matter in general if boys are of different faiths, etc. it might be nice to know at least if there are boys with dietary concerns..which might give you a clue and also lead to a discussion with the patrols about meal planning around those too. You could also work issues like food allergies into that discussion too, which would not make it stand out as a question of religious preferences.

sue

Right around the time I took over as SM, I had a couple of boys who got their Eagle right as they turned and wanted to stay on. We talked to them both about their changed role in the troop before we had them sign the adult application. Unfortunately, neither ever really got the point. The one would continue to show up for meetings and sit with the other boys in their patrols and just talk and socialize with them. I explained things again to him several times but it didn't stop. I finally had to say to him "If you can not keep from socializing with the boys, don't come back!" and he didn't. He just could not make the transition from Scout to adult leader and separate himself from the scouts.

Sue M.

Eagle Pete,

If nothing else, you can copy the pdf to the clipboard and then paste it into Word to edit. I only have a couple of things in pdf anyway...I'll try and send you some of them when I get a chance..keep in mind that I have geared my presentation notes to my own style..trying to highlight things to remind myself of certain things that needed to be emphasized.

sue m

I agree with FScouter...I see no real advantage in promoting or even mentioning "other models" of leadership! JMO, but the goal is to teach and provide leadership opportunities to boys and I think that should be more of the focus of what you put into your handouts. Desribe the model troop as envisioned by B-P and just encourage Cubs to visit various troops and choose the one that feels right for them without getting too much into the nitty-gritty of troop leadership styles! I think that only confuses both the boys and the adults..especially if these adult go on to become future troop leaders!

If you want to focus on variation in troops, perhaps it could be more along the lines of the differences in troop activities and encourage parents and scouts to explore those more. JMO though..

sue m.

Eagle Pete,

The Pagemaker files are all converted to PDF format so it wouldn't be too much of a problem. They could be edited from there. They all follow the current syllubus, but just with some personalized clip art to make them more visual. I have never used PP and couldn't see any -real- advantage in using it, especially since you can't save to a DVD from it. I guess if you are allowed to use a laptop for your presentations that's one thing..but we were told they did not want us using laptops, which makes sense when you're in outdoor settings..so flip charts were the rule and one can print hard copy just as easily from Word as PP or anything else.

Your staff development won't start until 90 days out, so you have lots of time. I don't know how other councils do it but on our Staff development days, there were blocks of time set aside where we would/could practice giving our presentation to the other staffers, who would then make sure we were following the syllubus and give us hints for how to improve our presentations.

Anyway..if you'd like to look them over sometime..just give me a yell

Sue M.

I..as well as the majority of the other TG's...not only this course, but the course I went through...made their OWN presentations up! For one thing..our copy of the CD-Rom or DVD would not allow us to copy from it..plus the fact that I prefer making my own presentations. I did mine in Word and or Pagemaker..kept them simple with the 7/7 "rule" (which was explained to me as no more than 7 bullets..no more than 7 words in each bullet) and then used the syllubus and disk for reference. I don't like stock items anyway..this allowed for some individual creativity with the visuals. I'm more used to doing DTP so it worked out bettter for me.

I'm willing to share my files if anyone feels they'd help

sue m.

As 2Eagle mention..the woman in the car ahead was in his patrol..I was their patrol guide. I got a note from her last night..she is devastated! She did everything she could to try and save them..only the leaders' son survived. I also had the leader who was killed in the last NLE class I was on staff for in March...he was an ex-marine who had survived the attacks in Beirut! Please keep them all in your prayers and thoughts.

Sue M.

I'm jealous that ya'all look like a celeb...I don't think I have ever been told I looked like -anyone-..except when my hair used to be down to my hips and people used to call me "Cousin It"!!

Sue M.

I'm jealous that ya'all look like a celeb...I don't think I have ever been told I looked like -anyone-..except when my hair used to be down to my hips and people used to call me "Cousin It"!!

Sue M.

There is also a lack of coordination that goes along with Asperger's. When my daughter runs, her feet and hands are flailing all over the place!

I have a young boy in my troop who has physical issues which involve having a rod placed in his back. He is making progress on his swimming but it will be very difficult for him. I am not sure what to do...I have asked the parents to get a recommendation from his physician as to his future capabilities but so far have not gotten anything.

sue

As another female SM, I too see it both ways...very capable women involved through out our district in both programs, and a fair number of male leaders who do not understand the program and if anything are -easier- on the boys meeting requirements then the women are! I grew up on a farm and have lots of practical outdoor experience in many areas that many men don't and am quite comfortable in the outdoors!

I am all for the premise of scouting providing adult male role models for boys..that's why my OWN son is involved! His dad doesn't have time to do much with him and is not particularly outdoorsy..we are military and have no family around to provide other male role models, etc. so I did look to the scouting program to provide him with that opportunity, as well as other opportunities.

I feel that even though I am the SM, there are plenty of other males in the troop for him to look to for an example. That said...there are also boys out there who may not any female role models in their lives due to one circumstance or another, and I don't think it hurts them to see capable women in the leadership roles to provide a role model for them too. Both situation provide a balance for many boys today. I do feel though from personal experience, that as a female SM I have to work much harder at the job to get the respect of the boys, then a male would. Some of the boys..and even some of the adults treat me at times like I do not know what I'm talking about when I try to run the program the way it...should be run. It sure gets very discouraging at times..

sue