SueM

I think that the "elitism" that people talk about comes more from the old system of staffing, where it was more or less a "good old boys" network and no one new ever got on staff. That and the fact that it used to be promoted in somewhat more that way too..kind of like being an Eagle Scout..not everyone was "worthy" to be a WB'er so if you did go through the course and got your beads, it was a symbol that you were more worthy than other leaders.

One of the participants at the last course was a pre-WB21st and was a 3 beader to boot..he has basically refused to not wear his beads even though he's not supposed to.

Unfortunately for jr56...last year was the final opportunity for an "old" WB'ers had not yet served on staff for WB21, that they could do it. Now, in order for them to be on staff in the future, they have to go through the new course again and work another ticket...we had several on our staff last fall who fell into that category...who were specifically chosen to give them the opportunity to be on staff before the deadline so that they did not have to go through the course and ticket process again.

Ms. Eagle,

We did the posters everywhere too..we wanted to go for the whole theater thing..we put some "gum" (actually were smushed starbursts!) on the floor and the backs of a few chairs (obvious enough that it would be seen of course!)..and were going to try and find usher's uniforms..have the place completely dark and have the ushers bring people in with flashlights..but those things didn't quite workout. It was still fun though!

Sue M.

Lisabob and Ms. Eagle 515

The attitude of our CD from the start of staff development was that he encouraged ALL the staff to be creative in everything that we did..whether it was our patrol presentations or the troop presentations. He wanted us to do everything that we could to make -sure- that it was a "mountain top experience" for the participants..he gave us the basic concept of what he wanted...such as "what can we do to make the first day B&G banquet feel like a REAL Cub Scout event?" and then just let us run with it. A staff ASM would be assigned to head the event and then the troop guides who wanted to help would just jump in and we'd make the plans together. He encouraged us to create and present an atmosphere of "Scout Spirit" among ourselves and encourage that within our patrols too.

So..if I were to offer any "advice" to Ms. Eagle from a staffers' POV, it would be..invite a good, enthusiastic, knowledgeable staff..encourage them to be creative with everything...take advantage of that as a form of leadership ability. Encourage your staff to be open and helpful. Encourage fun.

Sue M.

I used to be a Beaver

Thank you all for the input...as always it does help sort through some of the questions. Perhaps as some have suggested, if we didn't use the words pass/fail things would fit together better and I can see where their thought process was. And I do agree that ONE of the purposes of the BOR is to provide internal oversight, but they are implying that it's the ONLY thing that the BOR is supposed to do.

I had a meeting with my adult leaders last night and suggested that we ALL sit down and really read the Advancement requirements so that we can all understand them better.

"You don't need to know that right now" and "It will be revealed to you at the proper time!" (as I hear it from the older staffers around here!) was part of the old course...part of the "discovery" process.

One of the things we(staffers) did for the course last fall was, we wanted to have a real movie theater atmosphere for the participants when we did the "October Sky" afternoon..I placed 2 different colored tickets on the patrol tables right before the break before the movie started and didn't really tell them what they were for. I wanted to see if they'd figure it out. Then we set up a "booth" outside the door to collect tickets (they did figure that out very easily!) and then we set up a "consession stand" inside where they could come and use the other tickets for drinks and candy and popcorn. They seemed to really enjoy that.

Sue M.

What I was told was that each district made their own decisions as to whether or not to allow "failures". And perhaps in their view it's just a matter of symantics as far as what they are trying to say..maybe they are just stating things in a different way and not realizing it!

Nope..don't think it has anything to do with being overturned by appeal or being a retest. It was more like the Board did not have the authority to do it and the SM had the final say in everything.

There is somewhat more of a story behind it but I don't want to get into it publically...just wanted some opinions and hopefully some specific "quotes" from offical sources that I don't have access to at this time to reference...and I knew someone here would be able to point me to them!!

I thought I'd post an update..

I was basically told last night that in our district, that a BOR is not allowed to "fail" a boy for any reason! What do you all make of this??

BTW...when I asked about the 6 month "rule" at the course I was on staff for this fall, I was told by the course director and a former course director that there is no such rule. HOWEVER we were to highly encourage people to that minimum amount of time doing their tickets.

sue m.

This is my feeling..and that of many other adult leaders and trainers in our council...there are many training opportunities for Adult leaders, which focus on learning or improving you camping skills in both the CS & BS programs...WB is the ONLY advanced leaders training course which focuses on leadership.

Sue m.

For me, I think the biggest thing was learning not to be afraid of change or of leading change. It gave me confidence and better communications skills, as well as a better understanding of how to deal with conficts.

Sue M.

Beavah,

Exactly! I understand it's not a retest, but if the Board members start coming back to me and saying "You know Sue...some of these boys who are coming to BOR's seem totally unprepared..don't seem to know how what a square knot is let alone how to tie one..can't remember the meal they cooked for the patrol, etc!"...then it not only tells me that something is wrong with the way things are going, but also gives me a way of reinforcing with the boys that they need to put more effort into things if they expect to be advanced in rank or they WILL be rejected. Then I'll need to look at who is teaching the skills and the job that they are doing there..who is signing off on requirements more closely.

I welcome the feedback, as long as the feedback they are giving is within the way the BSA program is set up to run! It's hard to overcome 'traditions'..especially when many are not sure that I know what I'm talking because I'm a woman!! (who was never a scout!)

Sue M.

Thanks to all for the advice. Our "norm" has also been that the SM conference is the "last stop" before the BoR and in all honesty, I had thought that he did have the time in rank done when we sat down to do it..I only discovered he needed more time as we did the conference. I didn't see any need to end the conference at that point and just continued and signed off on it..it did give me a chance to go over where he was at that point better. He did not have the BOR until well after the requirements was satisfied. He his POR was complete..could have done a better job at it but then it was probably one of the better efforts that we've had in the troop up to that point too! Their reason for turning him down was something completely unrelated to the time in rank/SM conference date...but this date item was just mentioned to me by the board afterwards. I will probably sit down and have another one with him anyway. Keep in mind though that this is a "recovering" from being an adult led troop..I do not have a lot of adult help at the moment..have no advancement coordinator..and the adults who I do have are not really well versed in the finer points of these kinds of questions..I wouldn't have been either if it hadn't been for the time I've spent on this forum learning from you all!!! So I was glad that they did raise the red flag..One of my goals is that they start to be harder on the boys during the BOR's and stop the "rubber stamping" mentality. It takes some of the pressure off of me in many ways for always being the labled as "bad guy" if I tell the boys something is not up to what I would like to see from them and it actually reinforces the "higher standard" that I am striving for them to reach for.

Ed,

Thanks...Yes, he made Star in March 06'..his time in rank date would have been in 9/06..he only needed like 3 more weeks in rank when I did the SM's conference. It's obviously been at least 3 months past that time now, so time in rank is complete.

And yes..that's why I did not think there was an issue..he had -participated- in a SM's conference.

I am still working to correct many of the "old ways" of thinking about things in the troop, so their feeling was one that the SM's conference should NOT be held until all requirements were completed...and that it would cause questions to arise on the future Eagle application. I have pointed out to them that the only thing that goes on the Eagle app is the date that rank was achieved..not all the other requirement dates.

I also told the Board members that they would need to send the boy a formal letter explaining why he was not advanced and what he needed to do still to accomplish that goal..they had no idea that this needed to be done either. I think that the boy was stunned that he was rejected, as in my memory..he is the first one who ever has been turned down!

Sue M.

I'd like some clarification on the timing of the SM's Conference...Here's the situation..Back in mid-August, I had a boy come to me requesting a SM's Conference for Life rank. We sat down and did the conference. During the conference, I noticed that he still needed another month in participation time in rank before he could advance. But, we proceeded to continue with the conference and discussed what needed to be done, etc. and I signed off that he had participated in a SM's conference at that time.

Now fast forward..The boy came and requested a BoR for rank last night and was rejected for advancement for other reasons, but the question of the SM's conference coming before the time in rank was fulfilled came into question. It is not a problem with me to sit down with him again if I was incorrect in my interpretation and I would like to clarify it so that I don't possibly make the same mistake in the future.

Sue m.

I attended John Oliver's funeral (John was in the last BLT class that I was on staff for) along with the others of Bess Kannan's Eagle patrol...it and was truly heart-rending especially with the sharing of the struggles he had as a suvivor of the Beirut bombing and how that affected his life. It was standing room only..full military honors and a packed house of scouters, relatives, friends and others. His son Michael John was out of the hospital and able to attend too.

Anyway..I went home to my own troop meeting that night and decided to do a SM's minute with my own boys..reminding them of just how much responsibility we do take on as adult leaders when we're transporting them various places, how quickly things can happen and lives can be forever changed and when it comes to questions about why we can't do certain things because of "rules" in the G2SS...why we HAVE those rules in the first place..why we have a certain expectation for behaviour while traveling, etc...it's for their own safety and they need to not only accept that, but appreciate it. It was one of the few times that they were totally silent during a SM's minute!!

The Story was truly sad..Bess had not told us a lot of what was in the story..we had heard certain rumors about things but nothing more concrete.

sue m.

Absolutely! That's kind of what I was trying to say, but doing a poor job of it!! If I also added in all the hours that the other troop leaders and the boys put in to helping me accomplish just that one ticket item..like you would for an Eagle project...it would probably add up to thousands of hours..

Sue M.

Eagle Pete,

One of the main differences though when you're talking about hours spent on an Eagle project..that is total hours by EVERYONE who helped with the project, not just the Eagle candidate himself. For example, if he had 15 people working on the actual project work for 8 hours one day, that would translate into 120 hours. Then you add up his time spent researching, gathering materials and resources, etc. too.

Now I'm not equating my ticket to an Eagle project but just as an example..one of my ticket items was to take over as SM for a year. Let say I spent just 3 hours a week doing SM things for the troop..that's 156 hours just on one ticket item. This was my major ticket item though and the other 4 probably took anywhere from 10-20 or so hours each to accomplish. I wouldn't necessarily equate it with doing 3 or 4 Eagle projects..but maybe 2 might be more in line with what I think. I've seen some pretty simple Eagle projects as well as WB Ticket Items!!

Sue M.

What about maybe renting a party tent...I know it takes away from the outdoorsy aspect somewhat but it could provide cover for the cake at least...and maybe people too if it rains!

Sue m.

It depends on your course and your Course Director how Ticket Counselors are done..Our council is probably 150 miles across so participants came from all over. We only had about 35 participants so around the 5 day, they passed a list around and we were asked to choose 2 participants from the list to counsel...by the time it got to me, there was only one left from my patrol or area! This spread out the work and also gave you a chance to choose someone closer to home to follow. Other courses may do it differently. As Troop Guides though, we offered our ideas to any participant who asked. We rotated through sharing meals with the various patrols every day, so it gave us a chance to talk with them and get to know them all better. Many times it helped them by getting a larger number of ideas and perspectives. Sometimes we'd also sit down in numbers with a particular participant who was having a hard time coming up with ideas. Anyway..it's your Troop Guide's job to approve your ticket items. Items should, but don't necessarily -need- to be formed around your registered position. When I did mine..none of them ended up being for that position because I knew that I was going to change positions and I wrote them around the new position. Many of these participants were also "Multiple" registration positions, so they had ticket items written accordingly.

Sue M.

Ed,

I can understand why you'd think that's what is being said but I know that for myself at least, that's not the intent. I think that there should be consequences for sure, but I'd also like to know first that we're getting the whole story before passing judgement, which sometimes is not the case..and also whether or not this could be a case of just being at the wrong place at the wrong time...guilt by association or just plain didn't know any better.

Sue M.

Ah..that's what I was trying to remember..what we called them when we used to make them growing up.."Polish cannons"!! I can't tell you how many pop cans and whateverpiecesofpipe/downspout or other materials that we could fine to use to make them!! Were they dangerous??? Absolutely! Were they fun to kids? Absolutely!! As Greg N. said...kids love to blow up stuff!! And where would we really be if they didn't? There'd be no rockets to the moon, etc. Do I think kids should be making bombs?? No way!! I'd like to hear more of what the intent was with making the "pipe bomb"..if it was just to hear something go boom!!..then though the danger of it hurting them in the process is real, I'd hate to put a permanent stigma on the boy just for doing something momentarily stupid!! It's a well know scientific fact that teenage brains do not function in the same way adult brains do..especially when it comes to things of danger.

That said, I think the scout should also be expected to -prove- himself as being "repentent" for that deed before being before an Eagle BOR! JMO

Sue M.

What is missing from this whole discussion and perhaps should have been there from the start is a real discussion of the skills taught at WB..skills that not only are useful in a scouting setting but also in everyday life! I know that many of the participants who come through the course say "You know..I've been through all this in the military (or work or whatever) courses a hundred times!" but they always come away with a new perspective on things, since it does revolve specifically around the scouting program.

So..what does it teach?...Which is more of what the original question asked!

Listening to learn..who doesn't need improve their abilities to listen to others more effectively?...especially when dealing with scouts!!

Team building...What are dens/patrols/crews but teams?? The more we can help them understand this, the more effective they'll be.

Communication...who can't use better communication skills in all areas of their lives?

Managing Conflict...ditto..it gives you a number of different approaches to use, whether you're dealing with adults or scouts..or that annoying person who you work with every day!

The Teaching and Leading "EDGE"...how to use Explain/Demonstrate/Guide/Enable to help your scouts learn and teach other scouts.

It also teaches how to use the diversity in your pack/troop/crew to the benefit of all..what diversity really means, etc.

Now..how can learning those things NOT be a benefit to even a new Tiger leader?

It also and probably most importantly challenges you to look deep inside yourself set, reach for and achieve goals in life..whether inside of or outside of scouting. You start to look for your Vision in other areas of your life too. You start the course by asking yourself "Where do I see myself in Scouting in 2 years??"

So, I do respect Gonzo1 for his own opinion..and ask others to do that also...he's entitled to express his own opinions even if many of us disagree with it. I would also ask him though to also respect that for many, many, perhaps the vast majority of us, WB is..or has been..a life changing "mountain top" experience!! I have seen it turn ho-hum adult leaders into enthusiastic, driven and dedicated leaders within a weekend!

This is all based on proven corporate leadership concepts!...which many people pay thousands of dollars to attend in the civilian world! WB gives EVERYONE the opportunity to do it at a very minimal cost..and have fun as well as greatly expanding your Scouting network in the process!!

Down off my soapbox for now!!

Sue M.

If this helps you decide on time constraints...with the latest syllubus for WB-21st, Staff development can not begin until 90 days before the course start date and they are limited to 3 days (really 2 days and one weekend). The course I staffed was the first of Sept so we had one orientation meeting in April which took a couple of hours..we got our syllubus and assignments (TG, ASM, etc)..talked generally about how the CD wanted to run the course, got to know the other staffers a bit. Then we had a SD day in May, June and our weekend 30 days before the course in August. In the meantime, you'll need to be opreparing your presentations physically though. 30% of the staff has to be first timer staffers and honestly, though I had just gotten my beads, working through the presentations really helped me to understand what we were taught a lot better. The course is so fast paced when you're going through it, sometimes it's hard to take everything in and in my course, we got no summaries or handouts so you couldn't even go back over it later.

I don't know much about Powder Horn..we have not had one in this area for many years I'm told, but one is in the planning stage.

Do which ever one seems like it will offer you the most help right now.

sue m