SueM

hmm..I wonder if you could put them inside balloons that the boys would then have to pop to get them? You could write the den name on the balloons to keep them straight.

Or how about making up boxes of popcorn and hiding them in them like the "prize" in the Cracker Jack box?

that's all I got!

sue m.

I thought I'd give you an update...

The ASPL that I had a problem with has decided to go to the other troop. His mother (who is our troop secretary) let us know last night at the committee meeting. I'm sorry that things turned out like they did but it's probably for the best. This boy has great leadership potential but there were other influences in our troop which were interferring with him reaching that potential. In some ways, I actually had expected him to go over there anyway at the beginning of the year. You see..this troop was in danger of folding because they were down to 3 boys so a couple of adults in my troop kind of went behind the scenes and decided to "save" the troop by moving over to it. My ASPL was close to both the boys who left for the other troop. This was all done at rechartering time and I asked my DE if she could tell me who all was doing it so that I didn't have to pay for rechartering them, but she would not tell me who all was planning or thinking about going..just that there were "several" members and they'd have to tell me themselves. I assumed he was going to be one of them, but he didn't go at that point. Anyway..I wish him well and think it's probably for the best for everyone.

And on the positive note..last night the boys ran their first REAL meeting all by themselves!! I think the adults who were there were amazed! (I was in the committee meeting so I didn't get to see much of it). We had a PLC last week and chose the Cooking theme for the month to get ready for the Cookeree so last night one patrol was to research cast iron cookware..how to use and care for it; one patrol talked about Dutch oven cookings and then all the patrols were to bring a recipe that they could do in a dutch oven and share it with the troop. Afterwards, the program patrol decided to play Scouting Pictionary and they had a blast! Next week we're doing foil wrapped cooking and who knows what game..we're making progress!

Sue M.

gwd-scouter,

You and I have been following this parallel path with our troops as you know...knowing that and what it takes to get these troops back on the path..I would HIGHLY encourage you to go! You already have a good idea of your vision for the troop and where you want to see it go, WB will give you MORE tools and a better understanding of how to bring that vision to life. The improvement that you make will depend on what is of personal importance to you..what you see as the major hurdles that you still need to overcome to get your troop to where you want it to go. These areas would probably be where you should focus your ticket items.

What WB also gives you is more of an ability to learn how to value what other people have to offer and most of all, how to use not only your own talents, but the talents of those people around you to bring your vision to life as part of a team! Take it from me..the more people who share your vision, the easier it is to accomplish the goals you have for the future of the troop.

This is corporate style leadership training and you will find that you will start using the skills that you learn in all other areas of your life! It give you confidence..focus..and as others have mentioned, the expansion of your scouting network is invaluable! You will also find that you will gain new respect within your distict/council.

Yes, it is fairly expensive, but there are often "Scholarships" out there to help. Some employers will help cover the cost because they know that the skills you learn will translate into the workplace too. You might also approach your CO and see if they would be willing to cover some of the cost..or even your troop committee. We have a Wood Badge Association in our council and they offer scholarship help.

On top of all of that...it is the most FUN that you can have as an adult scouter!!! Don't hesitate..maybe you'll even be lucky enough to become a Beaver..always the FIRST in everything!! (and you get to sing the Gilwell Song!)

Sue M.

I used to be a Beaver

I'd like to say thank you again for all the great thoughtful discussion. I know it's going to be a long road ahead and hope to see the day when the vision totally takes hold. It's been a great personal challenge for me in many ways and I am very much aware of my own personal limitations and issues that I need to work on myself. Obviously, I was never a Boy Scout myself, but my involvement with the troop and scouting in general over the past 5 years has given me the same opportunity to for personal growth and developing my own leadership skills as it is supposed to provide for the boys themself.

And yes changing the culture was well understood, as well as starting from the bottom up. Last year when I got my first group of New scouts..they came in as a patrol! There were 6 boys who had gone all the way through cub scouts together and they came in ready to go! We decided within 2 weeks that they were going to lead the changes in the troop by their example and it didn't take long for that to happen. The older boys started to imitate some of what they were doing! These little guys were (and still ARE) awesome!. By the Fall Camporee, they were good enough to take 1st place in the competitions for best patrol totally made up of new scouts!! Some of the adults have asked if or when we're going to put them (or let them go) into the other patrols and the rest of us say "Why on earth would we want to do THAT?? All but one of them got to first class before the end of the year and the one who didn't has physical issues that keep him from being able to swim at this time..They are right on the money with most things..3 of them did the patrol campout last week and I gave them a special award for the best patrol site because they had it all together! It was clean, neat..everything was stowed and put away for the night..it was raked neatly, etc. I would not have any issues if ANY of these boys felt up to running for the SPL position in the next election!

Anyway..I'll try to keep the advice that you all have given in mind as I go back to work with the boys..and try to get back to a more positive approach..

Sue M

Kudu,

Yes, disclipline is an issue...has been ever since I been in the troop and well before I took over as SM...the previous scoutmaster pretty much let them do and say what they wanted without much in the way of disclipline, unless it was a major thing and then it was pretty much still just a slap on the wrist. I have started to try to rein them in and expect more scoutlike behavior and they don't like it. I don't think it's too much to ask for simple respectful behavior, both towards each other and the adult leaders. It's been especially hard for me as when I took over, some of the boys did not especially agree with a woman as scoutmaster..but when none of the men were willing to step up to do it..I just said "learn to deal with it!!"...I still feel sometimes like they are trying to find ways to see if they can intimidate me or drive me away.

I don't think I have been pushing things too quickly. I've been working to get to the point we are for 18 months now and I have been basically just letting them signal me along the way as to when they were ready to move to the 'next step'...which at this point was doing patrol camping. I'm assuming it will take at minimum 2-3 years to get the troop turned around and functioning well. Most of the adults say they agree with where I am trying to head..they may not all agree with my plan on how to get there at the but we're working on that.

thank you for the links for games and competitions. I'll have to take a look at them and perhaps print them out to put with my other camping materials. (games, skits, etc).

sue m.

dan,

Your comments were basically what I was aiming for with the weekend. The SPL had set up their tent in the adult area, away from the patrols and he, the ASPL and the SPL's younger brother (his younger brother is tiny..has health issues and it was a cold weekend so the idea was that the SPL & ASPL could help to keep him warmer at night). I did the adult cooking and planned for them to eat with us..I did not expect them to do any cleanup, etc. we took care of all that. When it came time to eat, the ASPL did not want to eat with us...when it was time for lights out and he was still with the patrol, I went to tell them it was time for lights out (the SPL had already turned in) and they were cooking hamburgers. So I let them finish and clean up. The ASPL then went into the tent with the patrol and I reminded him that his tent was up in the adult area..he basically ignored me until I told him that if he continued to do that I would call his mother to come and get him. Then he spent basically the whole next day with them too. He ate breakfast with us but that was it.

Both the SPL & ASPL had gone through the old JLT within the past year and I have also gone through the new version with them as best as I can. I discussed my vision for the troop and the SPL agreed with that vision and is trying to do a good job. He is also in the position though where he still does not have the courage to confront his buddies or take charge. He could not come up with a personal goal for himself to work towards though. The ASPL OTOH chose as his goal to work towards improving uniform standards.

The boys did plan a campfire for this weekend too. The Cub scout pack was doing their Webelos crossover so they planned it to go along with that..unfortunately, most of the cubscouters walked away before they could put it on! So we still did it for the troop anyway. This was the first time a specific boy had planned a campfire program too!

I do use a lot of "treats" as incentives. When I first took over, as a way of trying to get the boys to remember dates and times, I would question them when we circled up either by just giving them one or the other and then the first person with the correct answer got a piece of candy..They learned pretty quickly and as soon as we'd circle up, they'd all start reciting whatever was on the upcoming schedule! We also do a uniform inspection item each week..the SPL chooses the item and then the ASPL goes around and rewards everyone who has the correct item. I monitor birthdays and give the boys a large candy bar or something like that then to recognize them at the end of the meeting.. We have not yet been able to get into doing much in the way of patrol competitions, so I'll have to give some thought about what we can do about it.

I know it will take time to get the "bugs" worked out of things. I had gotten to the point where I was able to step back quite a bit from things but with each hurdle that we cross, it seems like I have to step back into a more directing style for a while and sometimes that means doing things that the boys don't like (like correcting them for unscoutlike behavior!).

We are having troop elections again in a couple of weeks and I don't think either boy is planning on running again. It's been kind of overwhelming for the current SPL though he has tried and done a good job.

Sue M

Wanted to add this to the previous post but what happened to the edit function??..it no longer appears on the options? Anyway..

Another duty of the ASPL - Set a good example..how is he doing this if he is openly defying me and the other adults in front of the rest of the scouts?

Sue M.

Kudu,

B & C in #1 are a issue at the moment..boys are either going and eating other patrols food, sometimes without permission, and have been known to not leave anything for the boys in that patrol..they have their own equipment, planned their own menus, etc. and sometimes leaving and wandering from site to site at night and there are other issues too that have been ongoing.

As far as #2 goes, If I'd let them, it would end up being a one patrol troop..no matter what patrol they chose to be in in the beginning. Patrols were realigned several years ago to allow them to go where they wanted. It hasn't helped and in many ways has caused MORE issues. Understand that these boys still are new to any kind of "planning" for camping trips (other than some planning for food!) and their view of camping is that there is no other reason to do it other than to play all weekend. They have not gotten to planning a "purpose" for a camping trip..we're just getting to the point of a semi-planned meeting!!

I also didn't say that I expected my ASPL to supervise PL, or interfere with them etc. but he also should not eating and sleeping with them as a patrol member, and not doing his duties otherwise because he doesn't want to offend his "patrol" mates by insisting they do their jobs. And yes, his main duty is to oversee and train ther other positions such as the historian, librarian etc. but also on his list of specific duties as per the position description from the current troop leadership training

Help leading meetings and activities as called upon by the SPL [how can he do that if he is unavailable to the SPL?]

Guiding the troop in the absence of the SPL {Doesn't say that PL's choose in absence of SPL!]

Performing tasks assigned by the SPL [again..how can he do that if he is never available?]

Function as a member of the PLC.

I understand that you have a different point of view of things and that's ok..I asked for opinions and I take something away from all of them. Most of us out there in the trenches trying to do the best job that we can with what we have to work with.

Sue m.

I think that as long as you have one registered adult on an outing that's all that is required. It might be a good idea though to keep your unregistered adults in a group where someone can keep an eye on them for a while though, so that they are not causing some possible safety or other issues due to lack of understanding of things like the youth protection policies and 2 deep leadership or other BSA policies. Many times they also try to be too helpful to the boys.

sue m.

gwd-scouter,

Yes..I've noticed that our troops seem to run parallel and do the same sorts of things about the same time and think it's kind of funny.

The adults who were in the troop when I took over were very supportive and generally the new ones who came in after are too, but I still get a feeling that they are not sure if I'm following the proper path. I was on staff at our recent BLT and 2 of my new adults went through, so it gave me an opportunity to really stress certain areas with them that -I- need them to know to help out in the troop setting. I do have a couple of adults who do "get it" though and they are helping back me up when I need it.

We had an adult meeting on Monday so we could all try and start getting on the same page hopefully. What I did was to spend a couple of hours on Friday afternoon preparing a written version of my "vision" for the troop and how I want to get there so that they have a better understanding of things. I hate to say it but it has been hard to really sit down and talk with them all together as a group. There was however some discussion from one ASM that he thought that they should be able to have more say in the direction the troop was going. I really think that we are mostly on the same page but our approaches may be different. I do value their opinions and I take them into consideration, but ultimately, it is MY duty to set the direction for the troop and see that we make progress. What I would really like to do though with them is to have them choose a personal goal for themselves within the troop...one that aligns with where I'm trying to go, naturally, and then let them take the lead in accomplishing that. It would give them that sense of having some say in things and also take the load off of me too. I want them to feel and BE part of the team, but I'm the team leader!! This meeting was a start though..i didn't expect to solve all the problems in 45 minutes and we're going to try and schedule one now on a monthly basis.

I know that it's one step forward..2 steps back sometimes and I usually get over it pretty quickly. Sometimes I do wonder though "Why am I putting myself through all of this?? Am I really making a difference in any of these boys' lives??" and then of course, all of a sudden something clicks with one of them and you forget about all the frustration for a short time! Thanks for the support..it's always welcomed.

Tune in for the further misadventures of Scoutmaster Mom(s) which I'm sure will be appearing in a scouting forum near you in the near future!!!

Sue M.

Eagledad,

Yes, right now, one of my main focuses is on behavior and character development. In the PLC that we had on Monday (one of the first REAL attempts at having one that we've had!!) I had a discussion with the PL's and told them that from now on that if they had a problem in their patrol, that I expected them to work together as a patrol to solve the problem and if they couldn't, to then ask the SPL to try and help them come to a solution, BUT..they were NOT to be running to the other patrols and discussing the problems with them because it only causes issues for everyone. Then I went on to say "Tell me just how many points of the scout law does doing something like this go against?? It's certainly not being trustworthy...loyal...friendly..courteous..kind..cheerful.." and some looked like they might actually be getting the point! Sometimes this is really difficult for me to address and seem objective because a lot of the issues involve my own son, so if I'm calling them on behavior, they think I'm just sticking up for him!! That's another whole topic though...

I have just gotten to the point where I'm tired of spending my "hour a week" on "pretend" scouts. I take my "vision" for the troop direction seriously..maybe too seriously for some of the adults who say "we have to remember..they're BOYS..not MEN!" My theory is though that they'll only perform to the minimum level of expectations that I set..and by raising that level higher, then that's where they should naturally follow. If they are old enough and responsible enough to be driving a car, then they should also be expected to start acting like young MEN!!

I thank you all again..as you can probably tell, I am somewhat frustrated!!

Sue m.

EagleinKY,

We didn't have a whole lot on the schedule for them, but the cub scout pack was going to do their crossover that evening and what we had suggested to the SPL was that each patrol pick a basic scouting skill to teach at their patrol site and then the cubs were going to come in the afternoon and then go from site to site and the boys would put on a demonstration. We only had 3 of our 4 patrols there for the weekend but one did an knife/ax & saw (totin' chip) demonstration, one did fire starting (an abbreviated version since we were under a red flag for burning!) and the other patrol discussed basic first aid, so some of their free time was supposed to be spent setting up their event and reviewing so they could teach everything they needed to. Even during the structured time it was hard to keep them separated. I mentioned to the some of the adults that what I would like to see during a lot of this "free" time was more of a promotion of competitions between patrols..which I hope will still come with time. Anyway...I think that some of my newer adults think that I'm trying to take the troop down some "weird" path or something..they really don't understand the scouting program and what we (I) are aiming towards with the troop. I do understand that they want to be with their buddies, etc. but unfortunately, the "pied pipers" of the group that they want to be with are often exhibiting the most unscoutlike behavior too..One was overheard by another adult to say (with his mother standing right there and she said nothing!) that there was no way he was going to say "Yes Ma'am" to me! (I've been trying to rein in some of the disrespectful behavior and have told them that I expect them to start addressing ALL adults with yes/no Sir/Ma'am) Sometimes I do feel like I am going a bit overboard with my expectations, but then, as a woman, many just do not respect me the same way they do with the male leaders..no matter who they are! I want and NEED to address the disclipline myself because I don't want them to think that I am too weak or afraid to do it myself and that I -need- the men to step in to do it for me.

As far as my ASPL is concerned..we are due for elections in a few weeks..I'm assuming that he will not run again, how ever it might backfire on him because his buddies in the patrol who he hangs out with just MAY be elected. I didn't take the threat of him going to another troop seriously..he even tried to threaten to call his mother to come and get him right then and I told him that it wouldn't be necessary because I would call her myself (and I did, but they were not home!) He is a good kid with good leadership potential..when he's not being diverted by the others. He does a good job when he tries..he just does not have the courage to stand up to his friends and call them on things when he needs to.

And yes..the advice so far is helpful..I hope more comes. Thanks!!

sue m.

As I think many of you know, I am working to try and turn around a troop that was for many years adult led and using the troop method. I am slowly making progress towards getting back to using the patrol method and we basically had our first real patrol campout last weekend so I'm trying to cross that "hurdle" and with each hurdle, naturally there comes resistance to change and arguement. In a nutshell, my question/quandry is: How much time can I allow for the patrols to spend with each other at this point? I am for the moment trying hard to encourage them to stay at their own patrol sites as much as possible so that they can not get used to working together and thinking of themselves as a team and I can't see this happening as easily at this point if they are continually try to join back up as a "troop". I especially have had problems with my ASPL, who will not separate himself from a particular patrol and was basically being very defiant about it and stayed with them ALL weekend, despite my having several conversations with him about it. He was never around when I needed to talk to him, and when we include him in the discussion about specific issues, he basically acts as a spy and carries things back to the other boys that perhaps we don't want them to be privey to. He ended up the evening trying to use the "threat" of going to another troop to try and make me feel guilty (I suppose...it didn't work!) I talked to his father then when he came to pick the scout up.

Anyway..I would really like to hear some views from everyone on the best way to handle/address this issue. One of the things that we did talk about was having a common area outside of their patrol sites so that they could get together there in their free time. Other suggestions??

Sue M.

A Basketcase

A Woggle

A kNOT

sue m.

My Ticket Counselor was also our Unit Commissioner at the time and was present at most events that involved my ticket items so I didn't need to provide any written "proof" that I had done things, and if there had been a question I could always provide proof if I needed too.

sue m

There's not a whole lot of you can do about the teasing that happens at school other than to try and reinforce with the cubs at the pack level that we always treat others the way we want to be treated and try to talk in general terms. If teasing goes on at den meetings or pack meetings then make sure that your adult leaders stay on top of it and don't allow it to happen. Try to have other adults address it if they see it happening with your son at pack gatherings.

sue m.

BSAChaplain,

Congratulation on finding a way to do it!! I recently got an invitation to be on staff at our council course next fall and am weighing the option heavily too...I have given them a tentative "yes" and would really lOVE to od it, but I need to go to the orientation first and see if I can make the time committment for the staff development days. I will at least go and help in the kitchen for the weekends if nothing else! That "Hour a week" (that I have left!!) is down to about 10 minutes currently, though it's a busy time of year with BLT & IOLS going on and I'm on staff for those..along with other troop events and activities.

Sue M

I think that the last paragraph in the Training Syllubus for the Scoutmaster Specific Training applies very aptly in sunsetandshadows situation

"While the uniform is one of the eight methods of Scouting, attention to is should be kept in perspective. Ultimately, the boy inside the uniform, rather than the uniform itself is what is important. The uniform is of value to the extent that it encourages boys to grow as Scouts, leaders and young men."

IMO, Use your limited resources to run the best program you can rather than worrying about the uniform issue at this time. Perhaps the boys can get some plain white (or colored) inexpensive t-shirts and design a troop logo that they can all wear to help develop Troop identity.

Sue M.

EagleinKY,

Wow...that's a miserable situation! How many Web I's are there left in the pack for next year? Are there enough that you can just sweat through this year with the boys that you have and concentrate on developing their skills more? Or perhaps do some other recruiting? It sounds like you have a good troop in the making...this is just another bump!! (It's funny but it must be "bump in the road" week for us all!!)

Sue M.

you might suggest trying ebay-ing for uniforms..sometimes you can get good deals there. Or why not try running an article in a local paper requesting that anyone who may have a "gently used" pair of pants donate them to the troop?? Build up your troop closet this way!

Sue M.

briantshore,

My patrol did our Wood Badge project on the history of Uniforms in scouting...I actually have the project sitting here in my dining room as I used it for a display at BLT last weekend. Anyway..there is a WHOLE lot of information out there on the internet (which is where we got most of it for our project).

Long pants (as opposed to the laced jodhpurs) were introduced in 1944.

There are many undiagnosed ADD/ADHD adults out there and sadly, many also still have a hard time getting anyone in the medical field to take them seriously. Many times they're told "You've adapted and survived this long without medication...I don't see any reason to put you on it now!"

sue m

Scoutingagain

Put Dad to work teaching the Cooking MB..with the understanding that he will only "coach" them in how to cook and not do it for them!

Sue M.

EagleinKY

I think one of the greatest challenges that a SM faces is not in the boys themselves, but with the other Adult leaders and trying to keep them from bailing the boys out of tough spots, etc. Like you, I get SO frustrated sometimes because some of my adult leaders are not on the same brain wave as I am and they just arbitrarily make decisions without consulting with me...just stand up and make announcement to the boys that are contrary to things that I have in mind for troop progress and many times the things that they do or say throw a real monkey wrench into things! It's not that I'm on a power trip or anything but it's MY responsibility as the SM to see that we're following (or at least building towards trying to follow) the program as best as we can...I can't do that when they continually overstep me in the chain of command (so to speak). You want and NEED it to be a team effort, but they have to remember that YOU are the Captain of the team too and sometimes I do think that you occasionally do have to "pull rank" to remind them to stay with the program.

You know...this gives me some more things to stress with adults next weekend when I'm on Staff at BLT!!! This is my 2nd year on staff and I'm the SPL for the course this year, but I want to say that I think I'm going to do a MUCH better job this year..both because I have another year under my belt as a SM and all the frustrations that have comes with that, but also due to what I have learned learned from YOU ALL on this forum in the past 6 months or so! I have 3 or 4 of my own adult leaders coming to training and I know a lot more now about what I need for them to know, so you'd better believe that I am going to stress many of these points with the whole group!!

Sue M

You don't mention if there are other local Packs that you are competing with for membership..but what about going to all local churchs and just asking if you can put general information about Cub Scouting there and include a list of all the local Packs along with contact numbers for those Pack? Then later in the summer ask if you can either come and do a presentation during a service or at least put a notice in their Sunday bulletins. I've had parents inquire on Scout Sundays because of our presence at the services..there are often parents who would like their sons to get involved in Scouting but have no idea of where to look for troops and Packs.

Start now..get the boys out there doing community service projects like someone else mentioned and get them noticed. If you have a sister Scout Troop, perhaps they could work on projects together. Recruiting in schools is getting tougher and tougher...many areas no longer permit classroom to classroom recruiting so all you're allowed to do is set up a table on back to school night