SR540Beaver

ScoutParent,

Why do you see it as science VS religion? What I said easily fits into your perscription. The Bible says the Earth was created in 6 "time periods". The English translation translates the original language to be the word "day" which you and I interpret to be a 24 hour day. The actual language is not a confined limit of time. That can fit very easily into the scientific age of the Earth. Whether God created Earth in a fraction of a second or over billions of years is not the real question. The question is whether you believe God is ultimately responsible for the creation or not, regardless of a certain method or length of time. Trust me, my faith in God is unshakeable. But that does not cause me to turn a blind eye to scientific fact. That being said, evolution is a theory, not a fact and that is exactly how I approach evolution. I believe God created man apart from other animal species as the Bible says he did. That does not mena that species have not evolved over the ages.

Rooster,

No, I am not limiting God. God could have created everything in 6/1,000,000ths of a second if he wanted to. Knowing that, is the fact that he took 6 "days" limiting God? He may have done it in 6 literal days some 4,000 years ago, but then how do you reconcile the age of the earth with that? Many Americans read their English translation of the Bible without knowing some of the actual literal translations of words that are not used in what we read. The original language has nuances that we don't always differentiate in English. When we start reading our translation literally and call the translation infallible, we set our selves up for mistakes. My main point is that you can believe in God as the Creator and as being supreme over all and still believe in science......as long as you don't deny what the Bible says. It said he created the Earth in 6 "days/eras/eons,etc". In other words, 6 time periods. Whether they were 6 24 hour days is the question. And even if you doubt that they were 24 hour days, you can still believe that God and only God created it.

Demann,

I am Southern Baptist, but can't speak for all Baptists and certainly can't speak for any other denominations. I don't believe in the origin of man as purported in the theory of evolution. However, I do believe that species do evolve thru time. The science is there, how can you ignore it? I do believe that the Bible is God's revelation to man. I believe that God is supreme and that he created everything. I believe he created man. It is all a matter of interpretation I gues. While I believe that God created man as the Bible states, I question whether Adam and Eve are actually two individuals or are representative of mankind. I question that the Earth was created in a literal 6 days. The word translated "days" actually is eons in the original language. Each day could have been 100,000,000 years for all we know. That sure fits better with scientific findings. That would also allow for the Earth to "evolve" into it's present state as we are now seeing how stars and planets form over 100 of thousands and millions of years. To say that following scientific findings somehow negates a belief in God creating man or Earth is silly. The ideas can co-exist and complement each other. Now I know some Southern Baptists that would throw me out for not taking a literal interpretation of the Bible. But what I stated above is how I personally can reconcile science and religion for myself.

Zorn,

Do you speak from personal experience?

I think this problem may even be worse at the Cub Scout level due to the boys age and parents and leaders "making" it too easy. I posted this in another thread last week, so I'll make a long story short. We went on a council sponsered overnighter a week or so ago and at the end, they gave us a sheet that said what all requirements the boys met during the various activities. It was basically the same thing listed here, if they "participated", they got credit. They got credit for the throwing life saving technique for Aquanaut by tossing bean bags thru holes in a board. Nothing about water safty was ever discussed. It was October, so the pool was closed. That is just one example of many I questioned, but most parents and leaders bought off on it. I will say that the BB and Archery range were more worthwile and the boys did learn something there. These methods are counter-productive to what Scouting is about. Right now I am grinning and bearing it, but thinking about volunteering as a Den Leader since my son's Webelo Den is so large.

BTW, Yaworski and Bob White like to keep us on our toes by agreeing once in awhile. Makes you do a double take!

Thanks for the info. That makes a little better sense. I still think it is pretty high priced popcorn. I doubt that he would have sold as much as he did if he had not been in uniform. It is instant identity and people seem to be willin to spend the extra for a program that has a good reputation. He sold the big $30 tin to an older couple whose three sons had been in scouts and made Eagle.

By golly Yaworski, I knew we'd finally agree on something. I wear a suit to work everyday and always carry a small Buck knife in my pants pocket. One just like my Dad's. If I put on pants or shorts with a pocket, my knife goes with me. For camping, hunting or hiking I carry a larger pocket knife. My 9 year old son has 2 pocket knifes and was thrilled to actually get to carry it on his first Cub Scout campout since he can't carry it to school. How can anyone NOT carry one is the question?

We just joined Cubs a few weeks ago and got the popcorn sprung on us last week. This is less than a month since my son did his school fundraiser. That isn't a problem for the pack, just for us individually. He went around the neighborhood and to all the family members and sold $250 in a day. My concern is what a Den Leader dad down the street told my son. My son understood him to say that we only keep 10% of the sale!!! My son is a pretty good listener, but at 9 years old, he does get it wrong sometimes. I hope this is the case. I find the popcorn to be a little pricey at $7 for a 14 0z. tin of caramel corn you can buy at Wal-Mart for $1 and the 3-way tin going for $30. A lot of people bought, but a lot of people balked at the price. Someone tell me I am wrong on the 10% please. Someone is making a ton of money and it isn't the scouts if that is the case. We sold tubs of frozen cookie dough for baseball that was $12 a tub and we got to keep half. If this is true, someone is lining their pockets and I'd prefer that our pack find a better fundraiser.

yaworski,

Well you suceeded in proving Benny's point about sniping and getting off of the issues. Rather than discuss the issue, you skirt them and find something negative to say. As you well know, my point had to do with rules and how they define an activity. I figured a baseball analogy might strike a cord with you since you ump. Evidently your desire to ridicule is stronger than your desire to engage in meaningful dialogue.

Regardless of your opinion about when kids should play organized sports, any team at any age that manages to compile a record like that is a once in a lifetime achievement. What player or parent wouldn't remember it? The point of a game is two-fold, to enjoy what you do and to do your best in an attempt to win the game. We were in it for the fun and activity, the winning record was icing on the cake.

Do you disagree that what the kids at the other ballpark was playing was not baseball? They sure didn't play the game by any set standard of rules other than what they made up. Sure, they had fun, but they were playing something other than baseball. I've yet to see a MLB team take a soccer ball on the field and try to play baseball with it. Rules exist for a purpose and if you are going to be part of an organization that has rules that define it's program, you need to play by those rules to truly call yourself part of that organization. If you want to change it, work thru the proper channels from the inside, don't just make it the way you want and say it is the same thing. You may as well start a group called Yaworski Scouts and leave the BSA back in the stone age.

sctmom,

I swore to my wife when my son signed up that I was going to do my best to not get in the big middle of it like baseball. I wanted to be a fan and watch from the bleachers for a change. Buttt........we'll see.

My son is in a Webelos 1 den with 14 I believe. I've only seen 12 attend so far. It is ultra noisy and the Den Leader had her sign up most of the meeting to little avail. We were trying to plan for our part in the Pack Meeting/Halloween party we are having in 2 weeks and asking the boys to think of games they wanted to run that were appropriate for Tigers on up. It was a disaster. They were all trying to be cute and one up each other on being silly. After 40 minutes of this, she sent them out with her husband to play so the parents could accomplish something. Twelve 9 year olds in a small room is too much. A copule of weeks ago we split them into three groups to work on differnt items for their Fitness badge and rotated them every 15 minutes and it worked pretty well. The Cubmaster's son is in the Den so he is in there and suggested last night that we approach future meetings the same way. For me, it feels like a wasted hour, but the boys obviously are having a blast. I think it needs to be split up into two groups of six or seven. Lord help me, I've even considered offering to be a Den Leader for another group.

However, I think there are two things at play here. One is that I think the boys can be taught the limits and will rise to the level of expectation that is set. As a dugout coach of a baseball team for 4 years, our kids from the age of 5 to 8 knew what proper behavior was and we rarely had any problems that couldn't be quickly handled with just a look and a word or two. Of course they learned the hard way what the look meant from having to run to a far away fence at the practice field everytime they acted up. The other thing at play here is that the Den Leader is a woman and I think the boys feel that they can run roughshod over her where they might not with a man. Possibly not.

There have been a few times that I have had to take a break and walk outside the room to regain my senses from all the noise.

Kittle, you are not doing anything wrong, keep it up and don't get discouraged. The best recruitment comes from kids enjoying what they are doing in Scouts and trying to talk their buddies into joining. Make it worth their while and you'll grow.

I typically think most speed limit laws (rules) are stupid, but I've learned the hard way to follow them. Most rules exist for a reason regardless of whether WE think they are dumb or not or chose to follow them or not.

When my son was on a 7 year old competitive baseball team that I was heavily involved with, we taught them the fundamentals and traditions of baseball. When at the balpark and in uniform, they were supposed to remain in full uniform before and after the game because they represented the team and what any baseball team SHOULD look like. No shirt tails hanging out, no shirts unbuttoned, no missing belts or hats, no hats on backwards. On the field they won 76 straight games over a spring and fall season due to the fundamentals they were taught and the amount of practice they had. They won the state championship that year.

During that time I had to go out of town on business. I needed my baseball "fix" since I couldn't be with my son, so I found a local ballpark in the town I was in. I found his age division field and settled in to watch. I was shocked and dismayed at what I saw. If the team had 15 kids, they ALL took the field. They had a short stop between 1st and 2nd as well as between 2nd and 3rd. All the other kids surrounded the outfield. If the ball was hit to right field, the 3rd baseman and everyone on that side of the field took off after it. No one knew how to field a ball, throw a ball or hit a ball. They chased runners around the bases if they managed to catch the ball. The batter got 6 balls off of the pitching machine and if he couldn't hit it, they set up a tee for him to hit it. A parent stood behind the plate instead of a catcher. No score was kept. Honest to God, this was a true experience!!!

I ask you, were they really playing baseball??? Or were they playing a version they dreamed up because they didn't like the real rules of the game?

BSA has rules for Scouting. The Scout police are not going to come and haul you off if you don't follow them anymore than the baseball police were going to haul away these "baseball" players. But rules exist for a reason and when you don't follow them, you are no longer playing the REAL game. You are making it up.

I went camping with my son this weekend.....that does not make me an Eagle Scout no matter how much I may have wanted to be one. I didn't do what was required to be called one.

Benny,

You just got an example of some of the backbiting that takes place here. Yes, Bob is a by the books kind of guy. Scouting is "owned" (for lack of a better word) by BSA and they often have approved rules and regulations. That rankles some. They think they know a better way of doing it. Bob can be a little rigid at times, but he is extremely informative and does know many of the official answers. There is nothing wrong with that. I think some people are jealous.

Yaworski, you are an ump and a ref. While you have to make judgement calls frequently in a game, it is framed within the official rules of the game is it not? You can't call a foul in basketball because a player half a court away gives an opponent a look that hurts his feelings. You can't tell a hitter who just hit a homerun that he can only take 1st base. Yet half of the complaints you have with Bob are because he adheres to the framework of the rules and you either disagree with those rules or you just plain feel he is a know it all. Give him some credit, he usually has documentation to back up his views. And the documentation is the BSA rules for Boy Scouting. If you do it any other way, it isn't true Boy Scouting is it.

ASM1,

Over here in little ole' backwards Oklahoma (the true cultural center of the universe) we get a kick out of the self importance of places like New York City, Chicago and Los Angeles. The problem is that people in the BIG cities are the ones who can't see beyond their own noses. They seem to think that the world follows their lead. We don't. It was great that New York cleaned up Times Square and closed down the strip joints and got rid of the hookers. It really had little effect on me 1,700 miles away. I want the hookers off of MY city streets. Yes, I am concerned when any council or district can't provide a good scouting experience, but I'm most concerned when it happens in my council or district. There is nothing wrong with that attitude. I understand that you have ties to that council and therefore sentimental feelings. It is because of that that you are so outraged by what is happening there. But as someone else said, this happens in councils throughout the country......where was YOUR outrage then and what did you do about it? It is YOU who are being blinded by your sentimental feelings and outrage, not us in our responses. Put the show on the other foot and consider why we feel the way WE do.

As seems to be the case with most people in these forums, I am now confused. My son is a Webelo and our council is putting on a two-nighter family camp in a few weeks. There was a possibility that I was going to have to drive 80 miles back home on Saturday morning for a couple of hours of work, so I talked to our Cubmaster about the parental requirements for camping. (Don't worry, I'm arranging for my wife to come to camp while I'm away or get my brother to camp with us.) The Cubmaster told me that Webelos do not have to have a parent present like the cubs do, it is preferred but not required. They could attend with another family if a family was willing to be responsible. They can tent by themselves, with another Scout or another family, just not with a Scout Leader as it is against BSA policy. Here is my confusion....Cub Scouts can't camp without a parent or Guardian and Webelos are still Cub Scouts. What is the real skinny on when a boy can camp "alone".

This is not the only oddity I've noticed in the pack. Part of the requirements for the Webelo badge is to earn the Fitness badge and two other badges from different groups for a total of three. The boys have earned their Fitness, Athlete and are working on Sportsman. I didn't speak up at the Den meeting last night, but those are all in the Physical Skills group. The way I read the manual, they HAVE to earn Fitness, then two more with each of the two being from one of the four different groups. I worked with my son on earning his Handyman and plan on working on one from another group just so that WE are following the rules regardless of how the Pack interprets the rules. Am I right on my understanding?

Another thing that has me bothered is the council one-nighter we went on this past weekend and the work done towards advancements. At the end of the camp, we were given a sheet of paper at checkout time stating what requirements were met by the campers during the campout. The Council and Cubmasters and Den Leaders may be satisfied, but I'm not. For instance, the throwing method of water rescue for Aquanaut was considered met. The pool was closed because it is Oct. One of the Dad's said that the throwing in the bean bag toss covered it. Water Safety wasn't even on the program. Another was explaining why we should respect the country's flag and telling when and how to salute it. We had a flag retirement ceremony at the campfire and a flag ceremony in the morning where the boys saluted, but they never had to explain their reasons or actions to anyone. For the Naturalist badge, they have to learn to identify poisonous plants and venomous reptiles. These requirements evidently were met by pointing out poison ivy on a nature trail and a skit about scouts ignoring snake rules on a hike during the campfire. There were 300 campers at the campfire and you couldn't hear half of the skits. I have my qualms about the leniency that many people take with the requirements. I want my son to earn them the same way he has earned his grades in school or earned his position on sports teams.

Hmmmm, I learned long ago to look an item over closely and try it on before I bought it. It has always worked well for me. I suspect those masochist at BSA just want to give you something else to gripe about. Isn't that why those umps and refs make the calls they do......to make the fans and players mad?

Just what the heck are the "joining requirements"? My son just joined Cubs as a Webelo a few weeks ago after we attended a recruitment night at his school. I was handed tons of material and don't recall any joining requirements. This past weekend at a council overnighter, there was a Boy Scout at the Archery range who had some sort of Palsey and confined to a wheel chair. It was so advanced that he had to be pushed everywhere by someone else. If a kid with those kind of physical diasabilites can join when he obviously can't fulfill the majority of the requirements for merit badges or advancement, then just who can be excluded from joining? I'm not saying that I don't think he should be allowed in scouts, I'm just fuzzy on what the requirements to join would be.

Jeepers, Mike!!! I reread the threead and didn't see any ATTACKS against YOU or any other individual. I saw a lot of discussion, scenarios to consider and difference of opinion, but no attacks. Who singled you out and made bad comments about your character. Maybe I missed it, if so, I'm sorry.

Bob,

You know from my posts in that thread that I agree with you. While my son is still in Cubs, I still look at it as a team effort. Imagine how thrilled a kid would be with only 2 kids in his den. Eventually they would lose interest without other den members to interact with. Scouting has elements of both individual and team sports. My son played baseball and basketball and knows that no game is won by a single player. He takes Tae Kwon Do and knows that his success or failure rest solely on his shoulders and the work he puts into it. A Den/Patrol should function as a unit and their success depends on each other. Their advancements often depend on their individual efforts. Trust me, I do understand that kids are spread pretty thin these days and some of their activities will come nto conflict occasionally. Occasionally is the key word here. If the conflicts are chronic, then maybe the boy and his family need to rethink their priorities and make some hard choices.

Probably because they made a million or two and can't cost justify scrapping them for new ones.

Ahhh, how sweet it would be to have no greater responsibilities in life than to hang out in forums that discuss serious concerns and pick nits over other peoples grammar. It must be tough being perfect and living in such an imperfect world. Zorn, most people here are devoted Scouters bouncing ideas off of each other and trying to improve their contribution to scouting. They have a life, perhaps you should pursue one as well.

BTW, if my grammar or spelling isn't perfect in this post.....I really don't care. The message is important, not the wrapping.

I understand Bob's concern and the BSA's position on meds. That being said, there is a difference between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. Of course they need to learn personal responsibility.....but. How many kids do you know of who have lost something on a campout? What if it is their meds and what if it is something their life depends on such as insulin. What if they go into insulin shock, are dazed or comatose and need an injection of Glucagon. Bob, are you going to stand there and look at them and say too bad? If it is over the counter meds such as Tylenol or Sinus pills, OK. If it is Ritalin, Insulin, etc. the prudent thing to do is make an adult responsible for holding all meds for safekeeping at the very least. What if a kid has meds that are light sensitve and he leaves them in the doorway of his tent thinking they are safe. Then as the sun moves across the sky on an August afternoon it shines in thru his tent door. What if it is insulin that needs to be kept cold? What if you are floating down a river on a canoe and the kid is keeping it in a pocket and it tips over? Sure, they are SUPPOSED to keep it in a water proof floatable container, but kids do the darndest things don't they. I'd rather have a designated meds person control the drugs than have to pack a severly sick or dying kid out of the backwoods because of my principles. Safety first, legal concerns second.

My 2 cents.

fboisseau,

Yeah, but.......commitment is commitment. As I said earlier, my son takes Tae Kwon Do twice a week on Monday and Wednesday. He has Den/Pack meetings on Thursday. We got into Cubs a few weeks ago after first checking to see when the meetings were held. He is talking about playing basketball. I've told him it all depends on what nights the practices are held. Would your soccer coach be satisfied if your son let the team down by not showing up for practice or games because he was at a Den meeting or a campout? If he is like my son's baseball coaches, the answer is NO! Scouts is not a sport, but it is a team oriented activity and signing up for it and not supporting it is just as bad as letting your soccer team down. I once knew a lady who had her son in soccer and baseball at the same time. She said that when they conflicted, they would just sit down and decide which game was more important to participate in. I'm sure the soccer and baseball coach just LOVED this family. Bottom line was that neither team could count on him as a player and the whole team suffered. It is disheartening for a Scout to come to one metting and there are 12 boys, next meeting there are 4, next meeting there are 8, next meeting there are 2. The den and packs will fall apart this way because it is not taken seriously and seen as a casual activity. There is no continuity. I'm teaching my son to prioritize his activities and to be committed to the one's he chooses. You can't have it all and getting it in bits and pieces is fruitless.

They did a Flag Retirement ceremony at the end of our campfire at our overnighter this past weekend. I'm 45 years old and it was the first one I had ever seen. It was moving. It is a great addition to any campout and an educational experience for the Scouts and their families. Kids know the story of the flag, the pledge and how to show respect for the flag. Few have any idea of how to pay the final respect to the flag.

YoungBlood,

You miss my point. Committment is a good think and something every kid needs to learn. Expecting 7 year old kids to practice 1 1/2 to 2 hours, 3 to 4 times a week, play in a league and play tournaments every weekend is a bit much. They played 76 games that season. That is half the schedule that the Major League plays. If they had a birthday party to go to, too bad. If the family wanted to go on vacation, too bad. The boys were expected not to go swimming on game days so they would have plenty of energy. They played 4 games back to back in one tournament when the tempature was 103. I think anyone would agree that the above true scenario is just a bit excessive. But it was what the requirements were and what the coach expected. If you didn't like it, well the dugout door is over there.

I agree, anything your kid gets involved in should teach them commitment and they should not over extend themselves. But when a coach or SM expects total commitment to the exclusion of any other activities, that is over the line. There have probably been 20 kids that have been part of this baseball team over the last 5 years. Many got tired and found a less agressive team or the kid just totally burned out like my son and won't even consider playing ball anymore. He used to love it and couldn't get enough. Now he won't even think about it. It is sad to see an adults expectations drive a kid away from something.

No one should be allowed to breeze thru scouts attending only one or two meetings a year and one or two campouts. But they should not fel like they can't take part in church activites because the SM will be vindictive either.