SR540Beaver

I suggested splitting our 14 boy den into two dens to the Cub Master. He is at all of our meetings as his son is in the den. He said that for now they do not want to split theden, but want to split them into seperate groups and rooms during meetings. I didn't really get an explanation for why. To split them during meetings is practically the same thing, but not really. Since they are alll there at the same time and in adjoining rooms, you still end up with the same rowdiness with only a smidgen of control.

I wish I had some answers for you. I'm just a parent and not active in the leadership. My son Joined as a Webelos just two months ago. He loves going to the pack meetings. Why shouldn't he? He is a 9 year old 4th grader who looks for any opportunity to hang with other boys his age regardless of where or what. But for me, I am totally frustrated!!! We had a meeting tonight and I had to go sit in my truck for 15 minutes to settle my nerves. I want my son in scouting, but this is not what I bargained for. I have never seen such chaos in all my life. The leadership sees it and they are trying to deal with it, but have not been successful yet. We have a female (nothing wrong with that) den leader who is fairly meek except for yelling at her hyperactive kid. We have 14 boys in the den. We have a new assistant den leader who is trying to help. One idea was to keep all 14 boys in the den but split them up into seperate groups and rooms during the meetings. In fact, tonight they were split into three groups and it was still mass chaos. All of the boys have to go see what their buddies are doing in the next room. Trying to keep them organized and focused seems to be about like herding cats. I know people who see me posting here probably hate for me to keep bringing up sports teams. But, the problems I see in the pack meetings were something that we didn't have when my son was playing baseball or basketball. Probably because they were doing drills and staying busy and didn't have time to act up. But beyond that, the coaches could be tough abd yes, they occasionally yelled at the boys. They were never demeaning in any way, just got their attention and let them know what was expected of them. My experience was that the boys tended to rise to the level of expectation put upon them. While I don't think many kids would stay in scouts if every meeting was a "preaching" session about behavior, I think yanking a few kids chains would go a long way. One of the problems I see is lack of committment as in a team sport. Cubs is too casual. It seems too much like the recreational sports leagues where all 15 kids on the baseball team take the field instead on just 9. Or where they get to keep swinging until they hit the ball and no score is kept. The people who play that way say they want the kids to have "fun". That is what I see right now with cubs. The word fun is mentioned all the time. I'm all for fun, but you can have discipline, learn something valuable and have "fun" at the same time. I've got a feeling that what you and I are experiencing is going on a lot. One thing about sports, the coaches were up front with the parents in telling them that they were in charge out on the field and if the boys goofed off and wouldn't pull their weight, they were going to get yelled at and possibly sitting on the bench while others played. I think far too many den leaders are afraid to call the shots while a bunch of parents are sitting in the room for fear that the whole den will walk out and never come back.

Rooster,

Our forefathers WERE Christians. Like my example said, if our forefathers had been Hindu, then obviously the building block would have been Hindu values and teachings. The standard was establised because of who and what they were, not because they studied a lot of other systems looking for the best they could find. They went with what they knew.

I've never said that laws or J-C values were unconstitional because they are based on religious principles. Almost all basic laws has some religious roots in any culture. What I was responding to earlier was the person who complained that the public school system (universally) was corrupt and immoral and he didn't like his taxes paying for it. He wanted his J-C values taught at school since HIS tax dollars were supporting the school. My feeling was from his attitude that he didn't just want the value taught, he wanted it taught as "J-C" values. Since people from other religious backgrounds also pay taxes and send their kids to the same schools, then there would be a problem that the public school system is intentionally promoting "J-C" over basic society standards. When you intentionally promote one religions values over another in a goverment entity whose primary purpose is educating children, then yes...it is unconstitutional. It is not that the law has a basis in a religious concept that makes it unconstitutional, it is when you teach a value in a public school because it is specifically Christian that it becomes unconstitional. Big difference. Besides, values and laws may be closely related, but they are two different things.

As far as who gets to determine what is right or wrong. The laws are created by legislative bodies of elected officials who are representative of the people who elect them. That has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics. The official's personal religion may flavor their politics, but they represent everyone in their area, not just the majority who elected them.

As far as finding depraved religions, almost any religion can be perverted. You don't have to look far for an example. Our nation is having to come to grips with Islam. Islam teaches that their religion IS their politics and their laws. Everything is based on a strict interpretation of the Koran. It is called Sharia law. Clerics are the judges and they will stone you for adultery and cut your hand off for stealing. Women are beat if a man sees anything besides their hand....even if they are inside their own house and a man sees them thru their window. School basically involves memorizing the Koran and little else. To them, it is a totally value based education. And since Allah is the only God and Mohammed is his messenger, any deviation from their teachings can meet with beheading. They are right pure and simple and you are not allowed to practice any other religion in their countries. That is the danger of chosing one religion over another and teaching only it's values in your schools. They laugh at our laws.

You get no argument that our forefathers were Christians and that our laws and values largely came from our J-C background. In fact, I like it that way. All I'm saying is that while I expect my son's school to teach them what being a good citizen is by respecting the laws of the land, I do not want them teaching them as Christian laws. They are not Christian laws, they are state laws developed by men whose views and values were influenced by their particular brand of faith. The laws don't say this is law because the Bible says so, they are simply laws whose beginnings have a basis in Christian values.

Many laws have no religious underpinnings. Seatbelt laws for instance....how does that relate to a J-C value? The basic laws against murder, stealing, fraud, human rights, etc. do have a religious underpinning. But the same types of laws are found worldwide even in cultures that are not J-C. They are fundamental to many many religious systems.

Actually, to say that our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values is not quite correct. Our nation began with Christians fleeing religious persecution in the old world. There were no Jews on the Mayflower. Christians of that time (just as today) did not see the Bible as half Jewish (the OT) and half Christian (the NT). They saw the whole Bible and it's teachings and values as Christian. The term Judeo-Christian didn't even come into existence until the mid 20th century. Yes, half the values of the Bible are Jewish and all the values of the Bible are Christian. But our nations government and laws were based on Christian values. Judiaism was not even a consideration at the time.

Packsaddle,

That "doctrine" gets blown way out of proportion by the media and people outside the Baptist church. One verse gets all the attention without considering the whole context. Her it is in the whole context:

Epesians 5:22 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; 33 however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Take special note of verses 25, 28, 29 and 31.

Let me tell you how this worked with my parents. My mom married my dad first and foremost because she loved him. But many of the reasons that she loved him was because she knew him to be decent, honest, hardworking, caring, loving and of good sound judgment. Because of those things, she found it easy to submit to him taking the leadership role in their marriage because she trusted his judgement and knew that any decision had her and our family as the main concern. On my dad's part, he never made a major purchase or decision that was not first fully discussed and debated in detail with my mom. It was a partnership, but she placed him at the head and trusted him to make the right decision and supported it fully when made. That is what the "doctrine" is. It is not a master and slave mentality that many make it out to be.

Now if I could just get MY wife to understand this! LOL Trust me, this does not get pushed every Sunday in Baptist churches and there are tons of Baptists who basically ignore it......because they can't see beyond the first verse.

To expand on Littlebillie's question, for funsies let's say that the new world was settled by Hindu's escaping religious persecution instead of Christians. Let's say that they formed a democratic form of government and their laws and schools were founded on Hindu values. Now let's say that over the course of 250 years many Christians immigrated to the nation founded on Hindu values. As a Christian, would you be happy if the schools were teaching these Hindu values or would you want the values taught to reflect your belief? This nation is a melting pot and it's made up of many different types and cultures. There is no one size fits all. Schools need to have discipline and teach certain core values common accepted within society. But to try to claim that schools should endorse one faith's values over another is an exercise in futility. All faiths have redeeming values. All faiths have certain values that anyone can accept. Heck, society apart from religion has common values. Laws against stealing and murder have been around forever. They did not originate with the Bible or the founding of the United States. Schools need to teach common values for the betterment of society in general and do. Familes and churches need to teach their specific brand of values to their kids.

Bob,

I understand that. My point is that if the guy has 40 acres and he shoots them 20 or 30 acres away from the scouts on his own, does that mean the scout leadership should cancel the trip if they knew he was going to do it? They would not be taking part in the fireworks display or even be close to it. It would only be visible to them from a distance.

Wait! I agree with everyone else's statements, but....

acco40 states in later posts that the event will be on private property and the person shooting the fireworks is the owner of the land. While still not a good idea, as long as the owner wants to shoot the fireworks on his land and it is away from the troop and the owner is not part of the leadership, I don't know that anyone could tell him no. Acco40, tell me if I got the scenario right.

weekender - Wow, Y'all didn't just miss the boat on that one...you're in the wrong port. I did NOT say parents should abdicate their responsibilities related to raising their children. Just the opposite. Parents need to take that back from a corrupt and morally bankrupt school system.

We understood what you said. But look at what you said, "Parents need to take that back from a corrupt and morally bankrupt school system." I don't know about you Weekender, but I don't have to take that back from the school system. In the first place, they didn't take it and in the second place, I never gave it up.

I'm sorry you live in a town with such a dismal school system. Just because you were bitten by a black dog does not mean that all black dogs bite. We live in a town with a great school system. My son's pulic school has a school creed and each class has a class creed that are all value based. The classes work on a behavior chart system. If a kid does something wrong, it is marked up. After 3 marks, the kid goes to the principal. Parents are notified if it becomes a real problem. Enough infractions and you end up sitting in the principal's office all day doing your school work. The principla and teachers encourage parent participation in every aspect of school. Parents are always welcome....anytime. Each week, a behavior folder is sent home with the student for the parent to review and sign. They have a homework/assignment folder that is brought home each night for parents to review and sign. Each week, there is a before school volunteer devotional program the students can attend. All of this in a state that ranks about 47th in teacher pay out of 50 states. My son's school teaches values, character, self-discipline, respect, etc. In fact, my son brought home a "Kids of Character" certificate for self-discipline last week. Your depiction of the public school system is colored by either your perception or your experience just like mine. Here where I live, I couldn't ask for more, it is great. My son gets an education from public school where respect of others and character values are taught along with the three R's and his religious training is handled by his family and church. Perhaps you should move here to Oklahoma where you can get some use out of your tax dollars.

weekender,

I am a devout Southern Baptist Christian with a degree in Religion. I am raising my son with the values I learned from my parents, who learned them from their parents. As a Southern Baptist educated in a Southern Baptist University, I not only know what I believe, I know why I believe it. Because of that, while I respect other people's denominations and beliefs, I don't agree with many of their teachings. They read the same Bible as me and get totally different interprtations. I leave my son's religious education to myself and our church. My son attends public school. It is not his school's job to teach him about God. In fact, I would be very upset if they did. What if one teacher is Jewish and another is Catholic? What if the principal is Muslim. Their teaching about God will reflect their brand of religion and it is not what I believe and not what I want my son learning. Many of my son's teachers and his principal are in fact Christians. That comes out in the way they conduct their daily life and the example they set. That is all the "religious" teaching I want my son's school to do. While I don't agree with an Atheist, what convinces you that someone who does not believe in God or someone who believes in evolution (not the same thing) has no respect for life or basic human values? The gangbanger kids who run around killing others are not doing it because they are not being taught Creationism in schools. It is because they come from homes where God is not taught. The problems in society are not the schools, it is the families. Teachers have influence over kids, but not a 10th as much as parents and family do. Ask any teacher about their good and bad students and which one has parents that are concerned with their kids behavior and education. They will tell you that the good students come from homes where the parents are involved and concerned with the kid's development, values and education....hands down.

Which model of Timberline tents do most of you use and for how many sleepers? 2 or 4?

Geez, I don't want to be the only one to sound a sour note and it really isn't meant to sound that way. You are right, we live in a very convenient microwave oven socitey where our kids are spoon fed. While it is our job to guide and encourage the boys, you can only help someone who wants to be helped and who is willing to help themselves. As has been said many times in these threads, scouting isn't for every boy. Some will thrive on it and some won't like it. If the boys find it boring even after all your attempts to make it not boring within the established guidelines, then maybe the bored boys need to find something else to do. I've watched many kids in sports who are only playing because mom and dad want them to. They are not there because they enjoy it. Other kids you can't drag off of the field and it is their parents who complain about having to be there. Bravo to the parents who will give up their free time to support their kid's interest against their own. Boo to the parents who make their kid's participate in something the kid is not willing to give 100% to. That kid ends up ruining the experience for the whole team. Certainly, try to make changes to engage the boys, but realize that some won't like it anyway. For those, they can either join in or move on. They will be happier and the troop will function better.

momandscout,

I had two patches sewn onto my son's tae kwon do uniform by an alteration shop. Each one was round and about the same diameter of a coke can. They charged $6.00 to sew on both I believe. My wife tried using some fabric glue on our son's scout uniform and they started turning lose the first time he wore it. So, begrudgingly she pulled out her sewing kit and stitched each one on. I'm not sure how much you should charge. Maybe for a new shirt that needs a council patch, troop/pack number, world scouting emblem and one rank badge you could charge $5.00. That would be a bargain over an alteration shop or someone having to do it themselves. Maybe $1.00 per additional patches down the road.

Scoutnut,

I know about the plastic sleeves. We have several different sizes that we use for temp patches that don't have an attached button loop. However, even though made for the purpose, I don't think the huge 4 compartment one for the rank patches is appropriate for pemanent wear. An alteration shop will sew them on for a small fee if someone can't do it themselves. Also, the ScoutShop online sells a fabric glue for faastening patches. The thing is just so huge on a small Cubs shirt and flops around. It looks tacky. Just my opinion and pet peeve.

"We went to the moon?

Well, there are some who still maintain in the face of all the evidence that it was staged by Hollywood.

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who will argue against the validity of the scientific process while sitting in their electrically lit, air conditioned home while typing messages on a computer (that is thousands of times more powerful than the computers that controlled a visit to the moon) over the internet. Yes, science is a bunch of bunk! I'm going back to my cave to eat some raw meat. We haven't discovered fire in my neck of the woods yet.

Talk to your Cub Master and find out how and where to sign up for training classes. Take as many as you can as often as you can.

I know my situation probably (hopefully) is not a common one. My son joined as a Webelo 1 just shy of 2 months now. We bought his tan uniform and I went to great lengths (got out the ruler) to make sure his patches are placed properly. I showed him how to roll his neckerchief. I go to the den meetings and pack meetings and it drives me nuts. I have my doubts if this pack has ever done an inspection. The den leaders son came to the den meeting this week wearing camo pants with the legs ripped off halfway between the ankle and knee. Tennis shoes with no socks. His shirt untucked and half his collar sticking up with his neckerchief sort of wadded underneath. I've seen every configuration of patch imaginable on their shirts. The Cub Masters son has his Bobcat, Wolf, Bear and Webelo patch all inside a huge diamond shaped plastic sleeve hanging from his pocket button instead of sewn on. I don't know what to think. My son is almost 10. He started in baseball just as he turned 5. Even at 5 years old and playing tee-ball, the coaches were adament about proper uniform wearing. You wore a belt...period. You wore a hat...period....and it better be turned the right way. You had your shirt tucked in....period. On teams that had more than one style of uniform, you'd better show up in the correct uniform for that game. Even after the game, if you stayed at the field, you stayed in uniform and better not get caught running around with your shirt untucked. You represented the team when you were in uniform and you would be a good reflection. The boys took pride in their uniforms and knew how important it was to wear it correctly. I do think Cubs tries to be too "fun" sometimes. Of course it should be fun, but teaching values is something that is serious. It doesn't slip up from behind them when they are not looking and having fun. I'm having a hard time dealing with the casual atmosphere of Cubs right now. I think it is one reason why there is such a drop off between Cubs abd Boy Scouts. You go from "anything goes and let's just play" to having to do everything for yourself and work hard for merit badges. I think kids will rise to your expectations. I've seen it in sports. I think it can be done in Cubs and still be fun.

Now, after my soapbox speech, I have a question. The way I read the insignia information, the Webelo Den Number or Patrol patch is supposed to go right beneath the US Flag. Not an inch or two below. If you wear the colors, they are pinned touching the bottom of the flag and covering the den number/patrol patch. Is that correct? That is the way I read it and the way I make my son wear it. He argues with me because every other Webelo in the den wears their colors under the patrol patch and hanging off of their sleeve touching their arms. I think one of the biggest problems is cub leaders not taking the time to talk to the parents and explain things. We are learning as we go and just pick stuff up or when I ask. No one has offered any information.

If one believes in Christian Election or Predestination, then doesn't one have to believe that God made us the way we are....heterosexual or homosexual? If our life and fate has been predestined, we can not change it even if we wanted to.

Probably not to play "chicken little". I agree that we could all move to a more "green" attitude, but I look around me and don't see all the problems that tree huggers claim. Yes, if you go to LA, it is smogsville. If you go to Dallas, it isn't. LA is overtaxed. Dallas, as big as it is, is not. I've literally gone from coast to coast and from border to border in this great nation and traveld abroad and I see tons of livable and farmable land sitting fallow. There are many places you can go in the world and never see another human being. How can you say that the carrying capacity has been exceeded? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we can cut, burn, drill and pollute to our hearts content. We do need to be better stewards of the Earth, but we have made great strides comaped to where we have been over the last 100 years in that respect. From my corner of the world, I just don't see the evidence that all the chicken littles see.

Ok, now my 2 cents worth. Annalisa asked, "tell me what kind of ice cream you want, vanilla or chocolate"? What she got was questions about why she is serving ice cream, is she secretly trying to fatten us up and add to the obesity problem of the nation and that she should really use a scooper instead of a spoon to serve it. She is writing a thesis assigned in class and her teacher approved her idea. Period. She does not need comment on her motives, agenda, length of the thesis, etc. She just needs you comments about what you see as the pros and cons of women being involved in scouting. Obviously, they already ar involved at all levels and girls are at a certain stage. Her thesis is on what scouters see as the pros and cons of it. There are some good old boys that still think it stinks and their are some who feel the more the merrier. She wants to document the pulse of the issue. Why does anyone have to see an ulterior motive in that. Do you want vanilla or chocolate? You have 2 choices. The question is, as a scouter, what do you see as the pros and cons of women in scouting. Either answer the question asked or leave it alone. Anything else is beside the point.

Ok, Ok...that was 3 cents worth!

I'm sure Bob White could answer this. Most people have no idea how to effect this kind of change. So you have parents, scouts and leaders who dislike the quality of the uniform.....how do you get National to listen? People could call them individually and complain....which I'm sure happens all the time. How do you organize with a unifed voice and say, "hey, we have no problem whtsoever with a uniform, we just think it can be better quality and more functional" and get them to listen and take action? While some people would complain about additional cost, I'd go for an official Class A and even possibly leave it as it is and an "official" set of options for Class B for the field. While some would say this is too expensive, they are already doing it on their own anyway.

Merlyn,

Quit picking and choosing what you want to use as evidence and what you don't. If you decided to create a Private Organization in the same vein as Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts or Campfire, you could. And that organization with it's private membership requirements could be sponsored by the military. Here is the document again that spells out the military's policy concerning Private Organizations on Military Installations. It is a document for ALL private organizations.....not just the Boy Scouts. Read it, learn it, live it. Your argument is invalid.

http://www.usapa.army.mil/pdffiles/r210_22.pdf

willysjeep,

It has been pointed out to me here in the threads that the Class A uniform is not intended for outdoor activity use. Most units have a "class B" uniform that they choose and wear. How can wearing a shirt emblazoned with a variety of patches be a good idea if rock climbing or rafting? They are worn for traveling, ceremonies, events and meetings. Not intended for everyday camping and hiking use.

Bob, while I understand your point of not looking military, BDU's are not exclusive to the military. There are companies and stores that make and sell BDU's to the general population. The military uses them exclusively, but they are not exclusively military. I do think that scouts should probably not wear camo, but BDU's come in a variety of solid colors too. From a distance, a scout in olive BDU pants or shorts couldn't be distinguished from a scout in scout pants or shorts. Color is the same, cut is different.