SR540Beaver

Guys,

I've said this a couple of times in other threads and no one has picked up on it. His Mom was his Scout Master. I asked in a thread about who makes up a BOR. The answer I got was that it is basically the Troop Committee and a person from District. If this is true, he got his Eagle because it came thru the people he had been with for years, including his own Mom. They overlooked the duty to God part because they already knew it. Assuming they had a friend at District who set in, he was a shoe-in for his Eagle. I could be wrong, but that is my opinion.

Merlyn,

You never addressed the website I listed. It is obvious from what I have found that the government and the military have engaged their substantial legal staff to design documents that spell out their relationship with private organizations. Boy Scouts included. Their legal people seem to have no problem with and seem to even encourage these relationships. Whether courts will agree with their stance is the question. So far, there has not seemed to be a problem. Considering the vast legal resources of the government and the military used in drafting these documents, I imagine they would hold up pretty well in court. The government is well aware of the programs, policies and procedures of these organizations and continue to support them. As has been stated before, the BSA membership requirements have been well known for 90 years. It has never given the governemnt pause in endorsing the BSA program. If you think it is unconstitutional, then search the web, print the documents, take them to a laywer and file a suit against the government. Your beef is with them and not the BSA. They have been above board as has been the government in designing their policies and agreements. Whatever a PR person told you is rahter besdie the point. I doubt he had any idea the number of legal and policy documents the goverment has in support of providing scouting.

Here is another website regarding logistical support to scouting organizations by the US military.

http://www.afmc.wpafb.af.mil/HQ-AFMC/JA/lo/lojaf/ethics/updates/990226.htm

To all concerned, here is what I found thru the US Army's website. It is a 20 page document.

http://www.usapa.army.mil/pdffiles/r210_22.pdf

Army Regulation 21022

Private Organizations on Department of the Army Installations

37. Membership practices

a. Organizations will not unlawfully deny membership, unlawfully exclude from participation, or otherwise subject to unlawful discrimination, any person because of race, color, creed, sex, disability, or national origin. (When unlawful discrimination by a PO is suspected, information about procedures for individuals to follow will be publicly disseminated.)

b. The above paragraph does not preclude the following:

(1) The existence of religious, cultural or ethnic POs when

(a) Membership is not restricted or discriminatory; and

(b) Similar religious, cultural, or ethnic POs are approved without preference.

(2) Approval by the installation commander for the operation of certain POs that restrict membership to one sex,

when one or more of subparagraphs (a) through © below apply. (Examples include womens/mens sport clubs,

womens/mens civic associations, and boy/girl scouting organizations.)

(a) The POs purpose is philanthropic and, by tradition, its membership has been of one sex.

(b) The POs purpose is to benefit one sex and its membership is composed of that sex.

© The PO has a specific purpose and function that restricts membership of one sex, but also has a counterpart organization with the same purpose and function.

c. PO membership campaigns and recruitment practices neither involve nor give the appearance of involving

compulsion, coercion, reprisal, or influence.

d. DOD 5500.7R governs membership drives.

Merlyn>>>Unlawful clauses of contracts aren't enforcable; the military could sign an agreement with an organization to run a "no Jews" youth group, and that wouldn't make it legal, either.

You are still confused. The BSA position is clear and well known by the government. They are not being dishonest in signing the contract. The government created the contract with the so-called "unlawful clause". As Bob White said, your beef is with the government, not with the BSA. The BSA position is clear and the contract says the government expects them to adhere to the BSA policies and standards. Why wouldn't the BSA sign an agreement calling for them to run their program following their policies. There is nothing devious there. You need to persue getting this changed thru government channels if you think the government contract is in error. The BSA didn't design it, just read it and agreed to it since it agreed with BSA policy. I ask the same thing Bob does.....what do you hope to accomplish here in this forum? We are not part of the government and didn't create the contract. We are not part of the BSA national office. As volunteers, we share info and discuss scout related issues. You're barking up the wrong tree. If you can actually get the government to stop sponsoring BSA troops, more power to you. It won't change anything except who the charter belongs to and as has been stated, 99.9% of the charters will be sucked up by other concerned groups and the program will never skip a beat. But if you are looking for us to jump on the bandwagon and beat the drum to stop government sponsored BSA units, you won't get much satisfaction.

willysjeep,

Cub Scout camping is family camping. At the very least, a parent or guardian must be present. However, we just went to two council sponsored campouts in October and both were family camping. Many of the activities went towards individual items for achievements. These activities were not limited to the Cub Scout boys. Any brother or sister of any age could participate in the activity. When my son was thru shooting on the BB gun range, one of the instructors asked him to help another Cub's little sister who was having trouble. Different colored beads were given for each activity. At the end of the campout, all paid campers, Scout or not received a camp patch. The campouts are open to parents, siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents, etc. The total overall number of campers is limited by the camping session, but if you get in under the limit, you can bring as much family as you want. So in a sense, Cub Scouts are limited to boys, but at the campouts the whole family (girls included) can come and participate in the same activities.

Merlyn,

The military base does not RUN the scouting program. They are the charter organization that sponsors it. While you are busy studying constitutional law, it might be helpful if you also studied how scouting is organized and ran. The charter organization does not run the program. They make provision for others to run it.

You never responed to my post pointing out that the agreement you are so taken with also states that the military entity expects the FECBSA to operate the scouting program based on the BSA policies and procedures which includes excluding atheist. Whatever the public affiars office told you, they told you based on the one segment you wished to wrap everything else around and make an issue. You are ignoring other pieces of the document. Remember, this is the governments document that the BSA had to sign, not the other way around. The government says that FECBSA must administer the BSA program.

Here is the agreement between BSA and the military that Merlyn keeps referring to:

http://www.cnfj.navy.mil/Admin/instructions/5720.11F%20Instruction.doc

Here is an interesting part of the agreement where the military spells out the responsibility of what FECBSA will do:

9. SCOUTING SERVICES.

9. 1. The FECBSA and the USAGSO-WP will:

9.1.1. Develop, guide, and maintain scouting services in all areas identified by the SOC within Japan and Korea.

9.1.2. Subscribe to the purpose, adhere to the policy, and be guided by the standards of the BSA and the GSUSA, as applicable.

Merlyn,

I understand your "stated" argument about the Government's not allowing descrimination based on religion and therefore can not sponsor a Scout unit. However, after viewing a good number of Atheist websites, they all define atheism as the "absense of religion" and that atheism IS NOT a religion. To exclude atheists because the BSA says you must believe in some kind of supreme being to be a member is not descrimination. If they said, "you must beleive in a god to be a member" and then said, "we are all Christians and you can't join because you are Muslim" would be descrimination. The BSA does not descriminate based on religion. They descriminate on the "absence of religion". There is a world of difference between discriminating against a particular brand of religion and descriminating against no religion. If atheism isn't a religion, then the government has no problem sponsoring the BSA.

Merlyn,

Why would an atheist want to join an organization that values religious principles? Simply to be disruptive? Why should hundreds of thousands of people who formed, joined and support an organization based on certain principles have to change their program to accomodate a single individual who does not support those principles?

How would an atheists organization feel if a religious person went to court to force their organization to allow him to join and push his religious agenda within that organization. When the atheist organization holds their monthly potluch dinner, are they all going to be bowing their heads in reverance as this person says grace?

Only being exposed to Cub Scouts so far, I do not know the answer to this question. Who makes up an Eagle BOR? The kids Mom was the Scout Master. If it is made up primarily of troop leadership, I can see how he passed it. If the Mom has been involved in the district and is friends with district leadership, again I can see how he possibly passed it as well. I think the makeup of the BOR might have a lot to say about how he passed it even while being honest. It wasn't until he spoke up in a training class full of other scout leaders outside of his troop that he exposed his beliefs to others who might question it.

Merlyn,

The best atheists or gays will probably ever be able to do is stop government entities from chartering BSA units. If that happens, 99.9% of those units will have someone step in almost immediately to start a new charter and they will go on without ever skipping a beat.

If your agenda is to get scouts to allow membership to gays and atheists, you will probably never achieve your goal. As a private organization, they can choose their membership.

I'm not sure which you want, one or the other or both. One you may accomplish, the other is doubtful.

I'm a Southern Baptist and a former Pastor of mine is the state convention president and now leads another church. Each week, he and his church has been singled out by a gay/lesbian group for picketing because they want his church to recognize them and accept their lifestyle as normal. They seem to think that if he does this, it will some how open the doors and turn the tide for acceptance of homosexuality in Christian churchs. They are relentless in persuing their agenda of becoming a part of his church and hanging their banner over the doorstep. I know this man and I know that while he totally disagrees with their lifestyle, he respects their right to life that way. He treats them with respect, he meets with them and he tries to befriend them as best he can. But he will never accept their lifestyle as "normal" and will continue to regard it as sinful as he understands the Bible to say it is. There are many gay churches around, but that does not seem to be OK with them. They don't want to go to a gay church. They want a mainstream church to change it's beliefs and accept them. Would it be fair for this Pastor to join the gay church and start trying to change it to a straight church? Would you appreciate his efforts? I doubt it.

The policies and requirements are known and it isn't for everyone. If you can't live with the requirements, do your own thing.

They seem to be somewhat lenient in my son's Webelos den with parental signing. It seems they somewhat use an honor system. Right after my son joined about a 6 weeks ago, there were a number of things around the house that needed to be done. There was some yard work, Mom's car needed washing, a bike had a flat, a lightbulb needed replacing, etc. I showed my son how to do each item and had him physically do them. He earned his Handyman in one afternoon. I signed his book and he took it to his den leader who accepted it with no problem or comment. I even asked the ACM if it was OK to work on these outside of the den and he said yes. Some achievements like doing things around the house can't be done during den meetings or on campouts. What should I have done? Not signed and let him present his book to the den leader and tell him what he did so she could check it off? Either way, she acknowledges that they requirements were met and orders the pin. I see where this is different in Boy Scouts. I understand that Webelos is a transition, but some items don't lend themself to being signed by a leader unless it is just a formality.

Merlyn,

Sorry, you're going to have to do better than your reference to Scouting For All. I read it and as I said, this organization has an axe to grind with the BSA. They are the only people I've come across that are claiming these particular coments were made. I watched the atheist scout on TV in several interviews and he himself has never alluded to the comments that S4A is claiming. Plus, S4A's item quotes none other than the authors brother/relative for a spin on scouting and atheism. He really needed to go outside his own family for support of his views. Find me something authoritative to hang my hat on if you want support.

Merlyn,

My company has an internet filter on our network that limits viewing many sites. I can't see the ScoutsForAll site right now, but will check it from home tonight. I will take their press release with a grain of salt however. When I said credible source, I meant a mainstream news organization like the AP or CNN. I've yet to see this comment in any news article. ScoutsForAll is an organization that has a political axe to grind with the BSA, so they will have their own particular spin on the subject that lends itself to suspicion.

Merlyn_LeRoy,

Why are you avoiding answering my question. Please provide a credible news link quoting Scmidt making this comment. I'm not saying he didn't, I just can't find anything that said he did. Since you keep using it as an example of BSA thought and policy, I want to be sure it is accurately attributed to the correct person.

However, I will again state that even if you can prove the comment came from him, it is his personal opinion, not BSA policy.

Merlyn_LeRoy,

Please provide a link to verify that the comment came from Schmidt. I've read every available news story I can find on the internet and even saw the kid of O'Reilly last night. I've never seen this comment in any news story and can't find it using any search engines. The only reference I've found is that their was a difference of opinion between the kid and another "scout leader" during a training class. All of the stories I have found have been consistent on this point. Even if Schmidt did make the comment, it is still his personal opinion and not an official BSA policy. If a high ranking Boy Scout official decided to wear blue shoulder loops like a Cub Master, that wouldn't mean it is official dress code for Boy Scout leaders. It would be a personal preference and it would be wrong. But you can't take the BSA to task over it, just the person who did/said it.

"Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground."

Let's be honest and clear here. This statement was an opinion made by one Scouter to another during a training course. People need to quit giving the impression that this is an official policy from BSA headquarters. It was one single solitary individual's opinion stated in the heat of an argument betwen two people. Period! To try to make it sound like this is the opinion of the majority of BSA Scouters against atheists is absurd and dishonest.(This message has been edited by kwc57)

This page

http://members.doubleknot.com/Pack4567/about/ScoutingOnSubase/scoutingonsubase.html

clearly states "Cub Scouts: Sponsored by the CO of Subase, Capt. Baker"

and

"Boy Scouts: Sponsored by the PACNORWEST MWR David Della-Rovere"

Red,

It means "in my humble opinion".

A quick note! My example was extreme and most people would find it difficult to respect a belief in sex with children....myself included. The example was to make a point that respecting someone's personal convictions is seperate from letting them be included in your membership when that belief is in opposition to your organizations beliefs.

acco40,

Respecting someone else's beliefs and denying them membership based on specific qualifications are two different things.

Denying membership is not being unfaithful to the part of the oath respecting others beliefs. Someone has the right to believe that it is OK to have sex with children and may be a card carrying member of the Man Boy Love Association (this is a real organization), but while we can respect his heartfelt belief in the practice, we are not going to let him be a Scouter because it is contrary to our values.

acco40,

And just what would an atheist's belief be? Not in God. Their "belief" is denying the existence of God. Since Scouting requires a belief in God and an Atheist does not believe in God, it is kind of difficult for an atheist to be a Scout according to the rules. That does not mean that a Scout can not respect the athiest's right to a lack of belief, it just means the athiest can not be a Scout.

You'll have better luck with this url

http://www.tetonmusic.com/Scout.htm

Being a lowly Cub Scouter at this time, let me ask the obvious question for those not in the know. If Scouts don't work on merit badges at their meetings (I realize that much of the work must be done outside the meeting), what do they do in the meetings?