SM406

I agree with Overtrained. The embers from this campfire have long grown cold. I will take my marshmallow stick, head for the sack and pray...

SM406

I can not help but think of a friend of mine who banned his children from MTV several years ago and would get upset when he would catch them watching it, when he was a big Elvis fan at their age. Elvis, was supposed to be the end of that generation. But he forgot about that. Then again we as adults see things from an "adult" persective which is totally different from the view of a 12-14 year old.

I think we all desire for the boys to slow down and smell the roses or its the journey not the destination. But I am still not in the camp for tenure yet. In response to the Scout that leaves for camp and comes back first class, I am assuming you meant he came back with all of the requirements for FC, because somewhere in the process should be Scout Spirit and a SMC for three ranks. Our Council Summer Camp offers a Trail to First Class course which is offered for any Scout not FC yet. It is possible to come away with exposure to almost all of the requirements. However our Camp also stresses that they are not testifying that the Scout has successfully passed that skill, they leave that up to the leadership of the Scouts unit to evaluate and sign off.

Thinking about this some more. Our Summer Camp has patrol cooking, so that if the SM attends Camp theoretically a Scout could come home a FC Scout. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I think it depends on the boy.

SM406

Sure learning takes time. Everyone learns at their own pace. To add tenure as a requirement to slow down advancement through first class in my mind penalizes the Scouts that satisfy all the other requirements before tenure is up. What is really being accomplished by adding tenure? I recognize there are pushy parents and advance at any cost leaders out there, however ideally if a Scout is truly learning the skills and his troops program is giving him he opportunity to advance quickly, is it fair to hold him back because of tenure? My understanding of the purpose for tenure for the Star and Life ranks is to provide the opportunity to have time in a leadership position so that the Scout can develop his leadership skills in preparation for the requirements for the rank of Eagle. In these ranks tenure has a clear purpose. For the lower ranks, I do not see how tenure would help a Scout learn how to tie two half-hitches or identify poison ivy.

SM406

I really enjoy the discussions that occur in this forum. Therefore I would like to throw this out to go around the campfire. I know how I feel about the following, but I was wondering how the rest of you feel and is there any national policy covering it.

This past Wednesday was the kickoff parade for the locale firemans carnival that is the principal fund raiser for the fire department. Because the parade is in the middle of the summer and the middle of the week it is very well attended by spectators as wells as participants in the parade. A fairly nice size affair. Every year the local Boy Scout troop has been invited to participate. A good thing. This year the troop was second, behind the National Guard Color Guard. The troop has always paraded with the troop flag and the US flag. However, this year they added mock rifles to the troops Flag color guard. I was taken by surprise by this. The troop does not have a formal Color Guard and I was concerned by them finding it necessary to carry guns even if they were fake. I think I know where the adult leadership was going with this, but is it proper?

Please do not take me wrong on this. I own firearms and shoot trap and skeet and hunt and all that. I was just wondering if I am a little paranoid about the image it portrayed.

I look forward to everyones thoughts.

SM406

Camping and other outdoor activities are a vital and integral part of the Scouting program. Therefore I have always viewed the Tenderfoot through First Class requirements not necessarily as advancement but more in the line of a skill set the Scouts need to safely and efficiently enjoy the outdoors. By coming up to speed with these skills the Scouts become independent and confident in themselves. Thus, the troop as a whole functions better on outings. The newer Scouts become lower maintenance as they progress in their skills and the older Scouts begin to enjoy their experience by becoming less hands on with the younger guys. When the first aid skills are presented to new Scouts, I have jokingly told the boys they need to really pay attention to the 5 signs of a heart attack, because their adult leadership is probably the first place they will ever use this skill (but in my heart I believe this is the case ha ha ha). I do not believe that a time frame between ranks is important as much as making sure the Scouts really learn these skills in order to have a safe fun outdoor program.

SM406

evmori,

We will be at Fort Multrie. Weather wise this week looks great. Hoping it holds for next week when we go. Even a wet week at camp is better than no camp at all!

SM406

Mark,

We camp at Liberty, but I will make time to visit your troop. I hope you have a good round and I wish I could join you. However I have final preps for camp. I have heard that with all of the rain lately the lake is really full. The first week of camp, the scouts had to wait until Thursday to get in the water. Look forward to meeting your son and your troop.

Ray Frear

Scoutmaster Troop 406

Beaver, PA.

Wow it is really cool to see so many heading to Heritage. My troop leaves for there on July 20. Although a week on the Bay sounds pretty awesome too.

I don't know what the green fees are at the "woods". But the course does look enticing. There is a new sporting goods store there now. Built by the same guy that owns 84 lumber and Nemocolin. It is modeled after the Cabelas stores. Stuffed animals and all. I have not been there yet, but I plan on checking it out on the way to camp.

fog,

You are posting to a open forum. Therefore, your post are anybody's business that cares to reply. Having made that statement and from your reply to the above posts speaks to your lack of Scout Spirit, I no longer care about or feel that you have anything of value to contribute to these forums.

SM406

Hey, FOG

Tone it down a bit; I and others have noticed you have a chip on your shoulder in dealing with BW. From my perspective it has been totally unwarranted. There is room for all experienced scouters in this forum. I have never experienced the arrogance you speak of and have found the advice of BW, OGE, DS and others as very helpful. On the other hand your posts have not impressed me much. Using the Scout Law as a guide for posting on this forum would go a long way.

SM406

Mark,

From your posts it appears you are in a tenuous situation with this boy and his parents. So I would proceed carefully from this point on. I agree there is a lot of time to pass before his BOR. If you meet with the boy, again take your self out of the situation and just talk to him about other Eagle projects, his thoughts on them, and then ask him his thoughts about his. I think if I was in your situation I would avoid any discussion about not following procedure and his parental involvement. He probably is already aware of all of it and may already be embarrassed by it all. The last thing he wants right now is any hint of being condemned for it. Possibly couch your discussion as a post project review in preparation for his BOR in a couple of months. Again if you can get him to honestly evaluate his efforts, he may surprise you. See if he will admit he is deserving of the Eagle rank. After all, we want this Scout to succeed (in spite of his parents). Hopefully he has the character we all desire in Eagle Scouts.

SM406

This truly is a mess. Here are my thoughts. Surely we all want Eagle projects to reflect the stature of the Eagle rank but in reality they vary greatly. To me it is not so much the project; as does the project give the Scout ample opportunity to use his leadership skills? The project is the vehicle for continued leadership development of the Scout. Maybe this project is weak or lame, but compared to what?

I agree the DAC should be informed as to the circumstances to this particular project. However the way that this DAC handles approvals of Eagle projects lends itself for problems such as these. Our DAC or his appointee will only sign off on the project after meeting with the Scout in person and discussing the project. I do not think the District has any recourse at this time. The Scout has all of his approvals and the project is complete. This process has been highly unusual.

The final recourse is the BOR. Hopefully, somebody from the District will be on the BOR. In our District, the DAC or his appointee runs the Eagle BORs. Your District representative should have the full story on the project prior to the BOR so that an appropriate line of questioning for the Scout can be developed. The questions should be developed so that the Scout reflects on his project and the Scout should determine if he has fulfilled the spirit of the Eagle project. Let him decide if he should be granted the Eagle award. He may surprise you. If he says he doesnt deserve it, you have a fine young man there. Asked what he thinks can be done to make the project worthy. And go from there. If he says he fulfilled everything to his satisfaction then the BOR can deny him. But be prepared to tell him in writing what he has to do and it what time frame to pass. Or finally based on his answers to the other questions, the BOR can pass him. I really believe if the boy is given the chance to evaluated himself, he will not feel worthy of the Eagle rank. Then there should not be any finger pointing.

For our Troop the money earned goes to the boys split evenly by the number of boys present, no matter how many parents are present. It seems like the same parents show up anyway time after time. If the troop is planning a major trip then the adults have a separate fund raiser.

SM406

BSA does not specify which form of religion its members belong, as long as they recognize a higher being. This obviously means it excludes atheists. The Supreme Court has upheld an organizations right to choose its members. Therefore, the BSA has the right to exclude atheists.

I for one do not mind if the government (local or federal) no longer funds the BSA. I would prefer that it did not, so we would not be bound by purse strings to abide by its policies. With the recent Supreme Court ruling the government is getting out of trying to impose values and morals on its people in favor of individuals rights.

In earlier threads we discussed the source of funding at the unit level. What I saw as a general consensus was that the source of funding should be in harmony with the CO values as well as those of the BSA. My feelings are what is good for the goose should be for the gander.

When it becomes apparent (by what ever means, active or passive) that a source of funding at the Council or National level is not in harmony with the values of Scouting then the funds should be politely and respectfully refused. Even if they are government funds. To accept funds from these sources would be a comprise of values.

SM406

dsteele,

Do you in your understanding of morally straight truly believe that this young lady is a good role model for 11 and 12 year old Boy Scouts? In her current state of pregency, it would be a constant visual reminder that sex outside of marriage is okay. Is that the message you as a professional want to send? Based on the previous post, she sounds like a truly great person, however currently she is not the proper role model.

SM406

Nicely stated BW, I agree with you completely.

Just a side thought. I find it interesting that if you disagree with the homosexual movement you are intolerant.

SM406

Raise money by selling more Popcorn (snicker, snicker). The way to replace the money may not be apparent now, but good ol American ingenuity would find a way. Maybe the BSA has become comfortable and secure in its current sources of funding. Maybe if forced to evaluate the traditional, new imaginative sources would become available. We probably will not find out until forced to. This issue of where funding comes from and from what sources in concert with BSA values has been discussed in other threads. Mostly dealing at the Unit and CO level.

Concerning the Jamboree; the finding of a new location maybe forced on the BSA sooner than we would like. However is that such a bad thing? Having the Jamboree on the east coast has put additional expenses on those contingents from the west for years. Giving those contingents near the Jamboree site an economic advantage. The Jamboree moved around the country in the past, to do that again would not be such a bad thing in my view.

SM406

He gets on mine also at times but he really makes me examine my beliefs at times. The topic came up in last 15 or 20 minutes of his show.

SM406

Ed

I was listening to 101.5 WORD fm and the Marty Minto Show 3:00 - 6:00 pm

SM406

I heard an interesting thought on a Christian radio talk show yesterday. The discussion was concerning BSAs moral stance and how the BSA should be commended for its stance and not battered (no argument here). The interesting thought came from a caller to the show. Maybe it has been presented in this forum before and I may have missed it. If it has I apologize. The callers point was; if funding is being withheld from the BSA for its moral stance, then maybe the BSA should be more selective from where it receives its funding. The BSA should refuse to receive funding from individuals, groups or even government agencys that do not have values in line with BSAs. I fully believe this source of funding would not be missed.

SM406

I agree with BW and have experienced this failure first hand. At my former Troops summer camp last year, the Scoutmaster decided to have a rotating SPL. Three Scouts had just returned fresh from a Council sponsored week long JLT course. So he decided to have each one of these Scouts be the SPL for a 48 hour period to demonstrate their new found Leadership skills. The troop gave each new SPL a terrible time; one Scout was reduced to tears because the Troop constantly just blew him off and ignored his request. On top of all of this the Scoutmaster did not step in and support his boy leadership. He possibly has ruined these boys for future Scout leadership. This incident coupled with others prompted my family and me to find a different Troop. It has been a very vivid lesson for me, the troop, or patrols will always elect their leadership no matter how temporary.

Thanks Mark. I too have struggled with the very same issues you are. Just whose beliefs are right or wrong? I too wanted to know the right answers and if I was right. And for years I professed to be a Christian, but a little part of me held out, just by chance I had it all wrong.

Since I have been in Scouting, I found Scouting to be an organization that was wholesome, fun and originally based on a set of morals, similar to those found in the Bible, worthy of teaching young lads. Recently society has started to change and a new set of morals are being developed by society that are clearly not Biblically based and are being shoved down everyones throat. Scouting so far has resisted this shift and this has caused me to do a little soul searching. I finally decided that Scouting is worth defending and rather than waffling about whose right or wrong, fully BELIEVE Scouting is right. I also BELIEVE the Bible is the word of God. Sure I do not really know, but I believe. I respect others beliefs even atheist and frog worshippers, I just no longer believe they possibly may be right.

SM406

Society in general may collectively decide what it believes to be moral. But what is this morality based on? If it is based on a collection of popular beliefs, then it can change with the tides. It can change to fit the morals of which ever group is the most persistent and vocal (i.e. the homosexual community). However if morality is faith based, with direct ties to the Old and New Testaments then it will never change. Societys morality can change but that change could still be immoral in Gods view (homosexuality, infidelity and adultery are still immoral). I am viewed as old fashioned and intolerant in Societies opinion, but I am not here to please Society, I am here to please my God.

It does not matter to me how nice they are or how well they relate to the boys. A pregnant unmarried 18 year old girl is not any more a proper role model for 11 to 17 year old Boy Scouts as an avowed homosexual is. However, once the homosexual renounces his preferences and goes straight and once the girl marries and has the child, and they are repentant and seek forgiveness from God, then and only then would they be welcome in my Troop.

At the risk of being sexist, I believe (first) that Boy Scout Camporees would be a wonderful way for a Dad and his Cub Scout son(s) to spend an afternoon observing the activities the Boy Scouts are involved with. What a great bonding opportunity. (Secondly) Understanding there are tons of single parents it would also be a great opportunity for a Mom and her son(s). Cubs should not camp or visit as a den in Camporees. Camporees are not age appropriate for Cubs.