SM406

Congratulations!!!

I use to be an eagle ......

SM406

Is it a national policy that requires Councils to approve unit fund raisers? Or does it vary from Council to Council whither they require approval? Some very knowledgeable people in my Council say that Units do not need our Council approval for Unit fund raising.

SM406

Me, being an uncomplicated fellow and always trying to keep things simple, follow the path of a Scout is Honest. Trying to keep secrets from one set of parents let alone dozens of sets of parents would become totally unmanageable for me. Somehow somewhere I would let the cat out of the bag and ruin my credibility with both the boy and the parents. Bottom line there is too much to manage and too much at risk to spend time keeping secrets. Following the honest vein, if a parent asks I tell, if they do not ask and it impacts a boys health and safety I tell. Otherwise, if the issue requires no other response from me or the boy, we move on.

SM406

BW,

I have a small troop, 12 boys registered, 7 - 10 that attend regularly. The regulars are Tenderfoot to First Class. I have one older boy about to turn 18 (in August) who is my SPL. I recently inherited this troop and the previous SM is a great guy and super Scouter (had the troop for 15 years). However, because of the low numbers, he did not have the boys in any formally structured patrol (no name, no flag, no yell, etc.). The SPL just ran things at our regular meetings. Believing in the Patrol method as you have outlined, I wanted to bring some form of a Patrol to the Unit. At one meeting, I had the boys elect a Patrol leader and he then chose his assistant. When the SPL does not attend a Unit meeting or function, the PL and his APL, run things. The boys are having a good time and I do not want to spoil it by changing things; however I have been toying with the idea of asking the boys if they want to split this patrol into two patrols. This obviously would mean going from a large patrol (which is functioning fine) to two smaller patrols (big unknown). The boys are all friends of each other and thus how would the boys decide who was in which patrol? I anticipate the solution is to let the boys decide (great idea, no problem); my concern is what are some of the ramifications of doing this or not doing this? Thanks for your thoughts.

SM406

How would you respond if the Scout had difficulty with the knots or any of the lower rank requirements? Would you deny him? Are not the Eagle SMC and the Eagle rank about leadership and the boys demonstration of those skills? If a scout is not in an environment where he is asked to use the skills taught in the Tenderfoot through First Class ranks, is it fair to expect him to know those skills? I still believe that the Eagle SMC is not the time or place to weed out Scouts because of their skill level, which should be done at the appropriate SMC for that rank. Again check the Scout Handbook for the requirements for Eagle, nothing said about knots or compass or any other lower rank requirement is found there. Any review of such and then not signing off on the SMC until it is met, is in fact adding to the requirements, - which is not allowed.

Thanks BW, with those references you sited and the knowledge that this is done regularly; I do not need anything else. Your guidance as to your requirements for the Patrol outing will help tremendously. Thanks again.

SM406

WOW. I am sitting here just blown away Bob White, you, Old Grey Eagle and others have taught me so much about some of the finer concepts of Scouting. I am deeply appreciative of the knowledge you so freely share. It is taking me a while to get my arms around the concept in this thread. The idea of Patrols without adults is really powerful, but in these modern times I just can not visualize National supporting it from the liability standpoint. As a Scoutmaster, I have always encouraged Patrols to meet outside of the Troop gathering but with registered adults tagging along. If I could have some assurance that National would back me if God Forbid something should happen to any of the boys on a Patrol outing without registered adults, it might take me a little bit to become comfortable with the idea, but I would try it. When I was a lad, taking off on my bike or camping in the woods without any adults was natural. However, under the auspices of the BSA it appears to become a whole different ball game.

SM406

All great responses. I just experienced something similar with my middle son and his Scoutmaster for his Eagle scoutmaster conference. This scoutmaster wanted my son to tie various knots as a test. (The testing issue) However in the Boy Scout Handbook on the page listing the requirements for Eagle rank it says nothing about being able to tie knots. He was adding to the requirements, which according to the handbook of requirements for ranks and merit badges says you are not allowed to add to and delete from the requirements. I do not think anybody would debate that it would ideal for the boys to know everything they learned since joining Scouts, the fact remains, the only thing required for Eagle are those listed on the appropriate page in the Boy Scout handbook. The SM conference should be a time for reflection on the boy's journey in Scouting and where he is going in the future. Not a test. When the Eagle candidate has made it to this point it is a little late to worry about Tenderfoot and Second class requirements. If there are issues with a Boy at this point, then the leaders need to review the troop program and how boys are advancing and make the necessary adjustments to the program so that similar instances do not occur in the future.

David,

It seems to me you already know the answer to your question. Scouting's program has for the most part stood the test of time. If you feel your unit would benefit from being more by the "book" - go for it. I do not see any reason the adult leaders would not support you for the change. Personally, I think it's great you want to take your unit in that direction. One word of caution do not lose the fun part.

Hey nldscout

You raise good points. Maybe the Jamboree should close it's gates to all those that don't pay the "fee". Keep out all those Scouts from Washington DC, Richmond, and Baltimore and other areas in the surrounding region that come over for a day or two because they don't have the resources or opportunities of other Units. Let's keep out other Scouts and Scouters that do follow the rules of the Jamboree (such as my wife and son), so those that pay the "fee" can have the total experience.

There will always be those who try to beat the system unfortunately, even in Scouting (those people have to look themselves in mirror) and there will be those that do not know the rules. However, to imply that those who do not pay the "fee" should not attend because they some how diminish the experience of those that do, borders on elitism.

Speaking as one of the adult staff that volunteered - strike that - I paid to volunteer to Staff the Jamboree, I feel there is more than enough Jamboree to go around. The Jamboree is a celebration of Scouting and if a boy becomes fired up over Scouting because of the Jamboree whether he attends one day or the full week, then the Jamboree was a success. If a boy leaves the Jamboree with negative memories because an adult Scouter did not follow the rules or because another adult Scouter displayed elitist attitudes, then shame on us as adults.

Sure paying the "fee" or volunteering as Staff is still the best way to experience the Jamboree (I had two sons who paid the fees). But if that is not possible, attending as a visitor (by the rules) is still the next best thing.

The Jamboree is an awesome experience. Two of my sons went this last time as part of the Council contingent and I went as Region Staff. My wife and our youngest son attended as visitors and had a tremendous experience. At the motel they were staying at nearby the Jambo site, was a troop that was "visiting" and they also were having a great time. There are numerous campimg oportunities in the surrounding area, however they fill up fast with visitng units. I agree, the Jambo is geared towards those that are participants, however visitors can still have a memorable experience. I would recommend trying to go as participants, if that is not possible going as a visitor beats staying home. It is my understanding, the Jamboree was not quite fully staffed with adult leaders this last time, this is a wonderful way as an adult to experience it all. However you can get there, GO! I can hardly wait for 2005.

The previous posts all gave Skerns123 great advice. Let the boy try, go through the proper channels to resolve the issue, etc. However, if the comments attributed to the Troops's adult leaders are correct, shame on those leaders. They have lost sight of the program. Rather than loose a boy because his self esteem has been damaged, because of the thoughtless comments, I would walk, ney run from this troop. There are better opportunities for this young lad to have a positive Scouting experience. I know, for I have been there.