skeptic

Following are three letters that appeared in the DESERT TRAIL, a community paper in 29 Palms, Ca., home of the largest Marine base we have. The troop is from the town it appears, but they likely have Marine dependents involved; and the town is very supportive of the base mission. What impressed me most are the responses by the SM and SPL, published publicly. Boy led, adult mentored. Your view: Scouts' behavior disappoints reader Published: Wednesday, June 9, 2010 6:21 PM CDT Melodie Chambers; Twentynine Palms (Community member) Dear editor, I, like many Americans, enjoyed the recent Memorial holiday. Living in a military town, our local Memorial Day celebration at the cemetery is a huge affair. I live close by and can see the cemetery from my home. On this Monday morning, a day for celebration, I was very upset to look out and see our local Boy Scouts, our future leaders, running through the cemetery throwing things at each other and running across the graves. As I stood in the window I was more enraged to realize that their leader was standing there and not doing anything about the situation. Parents, and now leaders, set the bar so low that kids have no respect and no idea of what is expected of them! This was the perfect time to instill in these young men the cost these young men and women have paid for our country; the country that allows them to run in the cemetery and over the tops of these brave soldiers graves. It amazes me how spoiled the youth of tomorrow are. I understand that we want them to have more than we had as youth but dont forget the most important part, teaching them morals and values. I feel that our scoutmaster has failed to teach the youth a valuable lesson not only about the sacrifice these men and women have made but on respect of others and themselves. Your view: What was not seen on Memorial Day Published: Thursday, June 17, 2010 10:11 AM CDT B.W. White-Findeisen; Twentynine Palms (Scoutmaster) Dear editor, Im thankful for citizens like Melodie Chambers, who feel strongly about properly honoring those who have served their country. Im the Scoutmaster and the Scouts of Troop 229 are the Boy Scouts she wrote about in the letter that appeared in the paper last week. What Mrs. Chambers apparently did not witness was my pulling the Senior Patrol Leader, who is 12 years old, aside and asking him to tell the Scouts that their behavior should be more circumspect, befitting the occasion. She would have seen the change in the Scouts behavior. Im wondering if Mrs. Chambers witnessed those same Scouts placing flags at veterans grave sites on the Saturday morning preceding those ceremonies? Many of the Scouts in Troop 229 have parents who have served or are currently serving in the armed forces of our country. I retired from 20 years of active military service that included service in two military engagements/wars. The Scouts of Troop 229 know what it means to serve and have themselves done much service in our community, earning official proclamation as the citys own because of their service work in our community. The goal of scouting is to teach character, fitness and citizenship. Among the methods of scouting is leadership training and the patrol method. We expect Scouts to lead Scouts. That is why those Scouts parents and I observed the behavior and, upon seeing that it wasnt being addressed by the Scouts or Scout leaders, addressed the senior Patrol leader. It might have been a more poignant lesson if Mrs. Chambers would have walked over to the cemetery and addressed her observations to the Scouts or me. I receive many compliments concerning the Scouts behavior and I relay those compliments to the Scouts. In like manner, I e-mailed her editorial to all the Scouts of Troop 229. I also invite Mrs. Chambers to make a presentation on citizenship to the Scouts. We meet at 6 p.m. Wednesday evenings at the community hall of Little Church of the Desert. She can call me to make arrangements for her presentation. Your view: Scouts did get a bit rambunctious Published: Thursday, June 17, 2010 10:11 AM CDT Vincent Thomas; Twentynine Palms (Senior Patrol Leader; only 12 it appears) Dear editor, In reply to Melodie Chambers letter last week, as senior patrol leader of Boy Scout Troop 229, Ive spoken to my fellow scouts about the occurrence at the Memorial Day Service. Yes, we did get a little rambunctious and were throwing juniper berries at each other. We were not, however, running across the graves. It was our duty at the service to pass out programs to the attendees. At the time of Mrs. Chambers' observation, it was prior to the actual service and Scouts at the entrance to the cemetery were getting programs to the arrivals. Those of us posted inside the cemetery found that many had already gotten their programs. Plain and simple, we got bored. Unfortunately our choice of activity was not the best one. The Scoutmaster wants the troop to be Scout led; he does provide direction to us when we˙re not getting the big picture. Obviously we werent on that Monday morning, so he asked me to speak to my fellow scouts and the rambunctious behavior stopped. Please dont let this be your total impression of Troop 229. It is our pleasure and duty to participate regularly in community activities as one of the youth organizations here in Twentynine Palms. Respectfully yours in Scouting. (This message has been edited by skeptic)

Be in trading post B, serving or doing something with food. Only know where I will be, not the exact job. Tried to get in something to do with scouting history or literature, or even displays; but at least I have a place.

For a while we had a separate ribbon displayer that was carried like a patrol flag might be. But it proved to be too cumbersome. Now, other than honor unit items, they are strung across our meeting room on wires. Of course with excess of 50 years of stuff, it was way too cluttered, and they kept falling off. Even the 15-20 on the troop pole now are becoming a bit much.

Lot of "Chicken Little's" it appears. Much ado about nothing if you are already doing the basics. But, just like when they finally came out and asked for drivers' licenses and SSN's for long time "carry over" charter names, many simply refused or ignored, and they were dropped. Our charter lost at least 6, and a couple complained very loudly, but did it anyway. So, now, we will likely lose one or two more who either will not care to make the effort, or feel put upon for some reason. Take a deep breath, and get on with the important things as soon as you can.

If you are the SM, you do what needs to be done. If you do not have the strength to do so, then perhaps you are not in the right position. Part of the job is counseling the boy; and that includes making them accountable. JMHO

Gern: Jeal never once proved anything in his book; he only made very broad suggestions that few find particularly accurate. His allegations are based on poor psychological interpretations and judgments of a late 19th century English life style using late 20th century ideas. He was the only serious biographer of B.P. who came to these conclusions, and even he used the term "repressed homosexual".

Bando; While there are occasional religion specific prayers or devotional comments in group settings, most of the time they are pretty generic. My experience at large scout gatherings of obviously multi-denominations and religions is that an effort is made to be very careful in the invocation and so on. On the other hand, people that are secure in their personal beliefs are really not threatened or upset when another belief makes public statements meant with good intent. But, still, if it is a constant occurrence in your experience, perhaps a polite discussion with those in charge would be helpful. JMHO

Calico: As I see it, this has nothing to do with adding requirements. It has to do with living up to the Scout Oath, and the definition of Spirit. Not maintaining at least average grades, if one does not have special issues, is simply not "doing their best", as I noted earlier. And that IS my responsibility as a SM. I have yet to have a parent complain; matter of fact, they have agreed with me in the few instances this has come up. What we consider important in interpreting our role as counselor when doing conferences is very subjective. But I personally expect more perhaps than some might, especially at the higher levels of advancement. I suspect that no matter what I say, many will consider me to be out of line. But when we say "A Scout Is .....", we are putting forth the expectation that they will actually adhere, "the best they can", to the Law, and as an extension, the Oath. JMHO

Again, too many people beying at shadows and grinding axes. While there may be a bit of tilt towards LDS pressure, there does not seem to be that much in our area, or the ones in which I was involved earlier. They are still held to the same requirements on district and council levels, other than accommodating their camping schedules. Just like Scientology, Catholicism, or other examples, there are people who have issues with them; and you will not convince them of anything positive, no matter what you say. They already have their minds set. Sort of like one of our favorite "debaters" here on this forum. As always, just my own views and observations.

So, while not knowing from the material presented, I would not be surprised if this assignment piggy backed on other material already completed, and perhaps only required finding additional pieces and putting it together. There is a chance that there had even been a preliminary mention of its coming. I know that in the middle schools in which I have subbed, there often have been a final assignment noted related to a longer term set of related material. Also, it is very common for kids to "waste" considerable class time that could be used for prep for these things. I would wager that the overall "research" time would be 2 hours or less at that grade level, and then a couple more hours of putting it together. So, since it was due on a Tuesday, there was even adequate time with an outing. It would have simply required better time management, as has been noted, and perhaps a dedication to focusing on it immediately on returning home. Whatever the case, this will hopefully be a good learning experience. Engineer, I sincerely hope that your son will realize the error of his way sooner, than later. Just for a note, and I realize that some will say I am adding requirements, but I expect my scouts going for the 3 higher ranks, to be at least "C" students, and not be flunking anything, unless they can prove to me that they have made sincere effort, but just cannot get it. That does happen; but they usually do not have issues with other things at the same time. Obviously, this would not apply to kids with "special" problems. To me, Scout Spirit includes getting at least average grades or better, and "doing their best" in school, not just scouts.

Once again, some individuals are fuming unnecessarily. The Museum has a very nice web site which can be reviewed along with the materials which might be sent via mail. This is not a difficult requirement with which to deal. Personally, I would have hoped to see a bit stronger requirement for the BSA history time line and so on; but it is overall very well done. As with any merit badge, we would hope that the counselor might set some basic expectations for a boy that chooses to do the badge. Most likely I will end up a counselor, and certainly will have my personal interpretations on a couple of them. Have to get a pamphlet to review first, though.

Possibly this would be a lesser concern if the other CO's actually bothered to vote. In my experience, almost nobody votes in reality, except the actual executive board members. Unless someone gets out there and pushes the COR's to actually do their jobs, that will not change, unfortunately. This does on rare occasion happen, but usually only when someone gets peeved enough to wrangle the voters to respond.

Scoutnut: Where are you getting your info'? Did I miss something? Went back and reviewed, and there is no mention of grade, ADHD, or additional details in that regard. So, your comments do not make any sense to me. If I missed something, please point it out. Otherwise, you are completely off track here.

Yep; God, family, school all come first if a conflict happens and can not be solved. Employment too would fit here if the young man had a job, though he hopefully would work with the boss in that regard. JMHO

Very good point that "some" units are not well run; this applies to the whole sphere, not just LDS. In our area,there tends to be a bit of contention at times, but it has softened over the years. Most importantly, as I see, is that the LDS here has made it a point to "attend roundtable", have "trained" people whenever possible, and participate as much as practical in the council and district activities. Problems most common are in record keeping, and the movement from unit to unit, as it confuses tracking advancement, especially when verifying Eagle. Because of the separate unit issue, they tend to be much smaller overall as well. I also see a bit of an issue with the leadership model most common for them; it tends to change too often, and so there is a lot of lost stability that comes with people in place for longer periods. Realistically, troops with leaders of 3 or more years tend to be more stable, as long as they are trained and have "enough" leaders to take the pressure off the SM and CC. These are just my observations. But over the years, I have seen a number of very strong LDS units. Talking to the leader(s), I have found that they specifically asked "to stay in place", and were allowed to. Still, most LDS scouters in our area are very dedicated. And many work independently of their stake assignment on our district and council level; though they still are technically under the church's broader dictum related to scouting.

My experience has been that most of the time it is counter productive. But, every parent approaches things differently, and each scout responds differently. That said, most of the "I finished it, now I'm done" Eagles were likely coerced to start with. While the skills of the required badges are apparent, the less visible element is the development of "personal initiative" and "character". The more self motivated, the more these things are apparent and will serve them going forward. JMHO

Duhhh! Another indicator that I am still living in the 60's. I still have a college footlocker, and it is way too large for practical shipping. Thanks for unmuddling my head. Now know what to look for.

Have tried to get an answer regarding the notes on the jamboree site in the staff section that we need to have a footlocker. This is not something that is simple, or inexpensive to ship. Is this something actually needed, or just a suggestion; or do they furnish them? I lived out of duffles in the past two I attended. Thanks

Please; enough. Must we rehash this whole thing "again". Close it out.

Guess I should read more carefully. The service work would satisfy the 1 hour service requirement. But the work for compass, and so on, are not normally counted towards other related requirements, especially merit badges. They MAY work on requirements for all three lower ranks concurrently though, just not generally use the same work for multiple requirements. Now for swimming for 2nd and 1st; the 50 yard requirement can be part of the 100 yard requirement. But that work normally would have nothing to do with the swimming portion of the merit badge, other than to meet the prelim requirement to have completed those elements of rank prior to, or concurrently with the "start" of the badge and the "swim check". Anyway, that is the way we normally apply these things. Others may have slightly different thoughts, but they likely are very similar.

Yes, it should.

Congratulations to Justin for his positive outcome after a difficult ordeal. And kudos to "Mom" for sticking with it and encouraging him to persevere. But, as Huzzar said; time to put this one to bed for good.

Thank you Beavah for the link to the article. I agree, it weighs the issue very evenly, and makes a number of very important points regarding the broader consequences.

As far as trading at Jambo is concerned, he should simply remember that he no longer is supposed to trade with youth. In reality, there will be no shortage of adults with whom he can trade; so that should not hinder his fun and possible improvement of his field of interest. Jamboree guidelines are very specific. And he needs to adhere to them. Since he is 18, and going to Jambo, what is his position? Is he going as part of the Arrow Corps at Jamboree? He would then be part of a large group of "tweeners", 18-21 year old scouts. Again, a fertile ground for trading. Good luck to him.

Yes!! Common sense still does survive. Great comments Eamonn. Like the part about taking the fun out. Had Camporee this past weekend, and minor issue in that realm. Have two brand new cross over boys on the outing. Saturday, one of the event staff is walking through; her job is safety among others. These two have crawled up a large oak branch to a fork and are just having a good time; maybe 8 feet from the ground at best on a branch that is over a foot thick. She tells me that they cannot climb the tree; and of course I pretty much tell her they are boys, and that is what they do. Later we cleared the air of any misunderstanding, but we cannot take away every possible danger. Sure, they could have fallen; but it was unlikely. Plus it happened that both of their dads were there. She was simply "following the rules" established with the ever present fear of litigation. "Common Sense", and "preserving a modicum of natural instinctive fun".