shortridge

All the definitions of pack camping, family camping and ratios, are in the G2SS. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspx

Gary_Miller wrote: Of course not. Do you really think the LDS are that insensitive to others beliefs. I don't think anything - I'm simply trying to understand how the LDS program works. Your earlier posts referenced Jesus Christ, and there are some COs that restrict membership, so that's a natural question to ask. Gary also wrote: How the leader of the group is selected has little if anything to do with wither or not the program is Youth-ran/lead. Do you really believe that? Under that line of thinking, America could be a monarchy but it would be OK to call ourselves a republic - because how the leader is selected doesn't have anything to do with how the country operates. As long as individual states (patrols) can make small decisions, it doesn't matter that the SPL (hereditary monarch) wasn't chosen by the people. I'm not trying to be argumentative or critical. I'm simply trying to understand how the youth leadership selection process you describe can in any way be called an "election," when it strikes me more as a rubber-stamping of an adult decision. How many young men are going to stand up and publicly disagree with their bishop? I just find it difficult to understand how National - whose Aims & Methods explicitly describe elections as part of the patrol method - OKs that type of arrangement.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Thanks very much. The words "Gospel" and "doctrine" were a bit confusing. As a hypothetical - could a Jewish Scout serve as SPL or PL in a LDS troop? Is one of the requirements to be "called" a belief in the divinity of Jesus? I'm still trying to wrap my head around how a troop can hold an election if there's only one candidate; the candidate is pre-selected and approved by the CO; and there are no alternatives. That doesn't seem like an election or a youth-run program to me. The quorum is a term for LDS Church members, correct? Do only quorum members have a vote to "sustain"? That's what's implied by the handbook and your answer. Do Scouts who are not members of the LDS Church have a vote? As a general question to anyone out there who may know, are there any other COs that require pre-approval of PL and SPL candidates by the IH?(This message has been edited by shortridge)

This year, my council offered Wood Badge twice - once in the spring, once in the fall, both using the two-weekend format. Next year, it's only being offered once, in September. Is it standard to only run a Wood Badge course once a year?

"The current uniform is called the Centennial uniform for a reason..... Is that not about the money????" No, it's not. Centennial simply refers to the 100th anniversary. There has been moaning and groaning for years that the ODL uniform wasn't suited for hard outdoor wear. National finally listened. (Whether they listened closely enough and made the right choices ... that's a matter of opinion.) But to say that the uniform change was prompted because National wanted more money from everyone who'd have to switch - especially considering that the "old" uniforms are perfectly fine to wear - is naive at best.

Scoutfish, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take offense from ... I was aiming for extreme sarcasm, my point being that if you go outdoors, there are going to be sticks. Unless your kids are encased in bubble wrap, they're going to pick up said sticks and play with them. It's human nature for boys and girls alike (not to mention some non-uptight adults, even! ).

All right, here's another question, following up on Gary_Miller's reply on the second page of this thread regarding the selection of the SPL. jhankins initially wrote: "Yes, the COR appoints the SPL with guidance from the Scoutmaster, but currently in my LDS units the patrol leaders are chosen by the boys after the list is approved by the Bishop, and the SPLs are nominated for by the boys then interviewed by the Young Men's Presidency and Bishop. and: Our Bishop tends to go over the Standards to reinforce conduct with the protential SPLs, too. Gary_Miller explained that conduct in this case refers to Gospel teachings and Doctrine in which members of the LDS Church strive to live by. Which includes the Scout Oath and Law. My question is what exactly does this discussion between the bishop and prospective SPL involve as it touches on doctrine and teachings? How can a non-LDS Church member knowledgeably discuss, let alone agree to follow, teachings of the LDS church? I'm also confused about just how youth leaders are selected in a troop chartered to an LDS church, and am hoping some knowledgeable folks can help me out. The handbook published at http://www.lds-scouts.org/Resources/Sct_Hndbk.pdf states that all units' main youth leaders are nominated by the bishopric and sustained by the quorum members, which for Scouting purposes constitutes election." (Note: I know this is an older version, as it refers to Explorer posts, but it's all I could find online.) It also seems to suggest (if I'm reading it correctly) that patrol leaders are not elected, but rather the deacons and teachers quorum presidents hold those roles automatically. How does all that mesh with the part of the Scouting program that says patrol leaders and the SPL are elected?

Stick privileges? Don't forget your fresh air-breathing, trail-hiking, animal-watching and mud puddle-stomping privileges, too. Two solutions that work hand-in-hand: Parents should watch and control their kids. The pack and den leadership should offer good program that keeps the kids from getting bored. Adding those two together gets you minimal stick-whacking. Simple.

- Start working now with the Webelos Den Leaders and the pack leadership to make sure the transition is smooth - that what the WDLs are telling them they're going to do once in Boy Scouts matches with your troop and patrol programs. Ditto for parent relationships. Make sure parents understand the difference and the roles they can play. Don't leave the latter up to the WDLs - the SM and SPL should meet with them personally, and let the SPL take the lead. - Do you want the WDLs to come over with their boys, taking on new roles as ASMs or TC members? If so, I'd advise against putting the WDLs as the ASM mentors to the NSPs. Put experienced ASMs into those roles and train your former WDLs gradually in the ways of the Force. - With the PLC, develop a two/three-year program plan - not a specific month-by-month calendar, but rather a general outline of where they want the troop to be and things they want to do. A plan for the new Scouts is essential, but so is one by and for the older Scouts, so they're not forgotten and just shunted into roles of helping the youngers. They need adventure, too.

jhankins wrote: "The little green book states that an 11 year old may have 3 campouts PER YEAR until he turns 12. So that's six campouts during his age span, not 3." All right, color me really confused! An 11-year-old boy is only 11 for one year. He is only allowed to go on three campouts during that year. How do you turn three into six? "The First Class requirement to cook breakfast, lunch and dinner he planned, that can happen on an all day outing. We've taken our boys on an all day hike/skills camp without camping overnight. They got up early in the morning, set up camp, did skills, went on a hike, prepared their meals, and had a blast, all without using one of our precious nights of camping." If that's the way your troop is doing it, then you're detracting from the requirements. It clearly states it has to be done on a campout, and that the boy serve as the patrol cook - not just cook an individual meal with a group of other Scouts also cooking their individual meals on a day hike. First Class 4e states: "On one campout, serve as your patrol's cook. Supervise your assistant(s) in using a stove or building a cooking fire. Prepare the breakfast, lunch, and dinner planned in requirement 4a. Lead your patrol in saying grace at the meals and supervise cleanup." Three campouts seems an arbitrary number to me, and I'm really curious as to the actual reason why. Not trying to pick or poke or criticize, but just curious.

As long as his new troop and the pack leadership are fine with it, your son can do whatever he wants. The "old" leadership of the troop has no say in the matter. I would watch out, however, for the "old" leadership trying to put pressure on the pack. But since your son has a good track record with his den, and established a relationship with the boys and the DL, I would hope the pack would withstand that. A den chief term can be however long the pack and troop want it to be. There's no set length - six months, a year, whatever. I was den chief for two dens over a period of several years.

gotta run - That's what happens when you have a national program with thousands upon thousands of volunteers who aren't always properly trained. Just because such-and-such Wolf den did something that clearly goes against the written rules and got away with it doesn't mean it's OK! Yeah, it's aggravating. Yeah, the rules could be a lot more clearly written. But in this case, it's pretty clear. Other than Webelos, dens can't camp on their own. Pretty simple to me.

You need three, clearly. But there are other requirements that go along with camping. By just allowing three campouts, the program does limit the number of boys that can earn First Class to six. Requirement 4(e) says that a Scout must cook breakfast, lunch and dinner that he planned. If you just spend six days camping, then only six boys can complete that requirement (and that's assuming the patrol camps for two full days).

There is one significant program difference that hasn't been mentioned yet. My understanding - and please correct me if I'm wrong! - is that the 11-year-old Scout patrol is only allowed to go camping three times a year, and that each campout can only be for a single night.

Here's an idea ... put this moneybags DL in charge of pack fundraising. An interest survey isn't going to help a bad DL improve. All the bad DL will do for a den that wants to learn more about knots is read from the book about knots.

I think a significant part of the disconnect may be the additional level of jargon. Why are "boys" or "Scouts" called "YMs," for example? (No, seriously, that's a real question. I'm curious.) Ditto "wards" and "stakes." It can be confusing terminology to someone who doesn't live in an area with a substantial LDS population. jhankins wrote:

Financial pressures over a patch? Give me a break. Trained patches and shoulder loops are not how National makes most of its money. They wanted to change colors. That's fine. The screwups and miscommunication have taken place because of someone's utter incompetence, not because Irving wants to rake in a couple more million.

My council puts on a Cub Family Weekend twice a year - spring and fall. I've volunteered there several times, teaching knots and firebuilding. It's a great experience and lots of fun. The most recent was two weekends ago. There were about 320-340 people there (folks kept signing up right until the last minute on Friday night). Webelos were allowed to show up Friday evening and camp the whole weekend, doing special Webelos stuff; everyone else came in Saturday morning and stayed until Sunday. For the Cubs and families, especially new ones, it's a great introduction to both the Cub program and the council camps. For the parents, it's a way to expose them to camping and the outdoors, as well as expose them to the opportunities their kids may have at resident camp. From a staff perspective, it's just fun to see the excitement and the parents and kids working together. At the Cub resident camps I've staffed, there's not always a 1:1 parent-child ratio, but it's pretty close at these weekend events since families are responsible for bringing their own tents. I got a big kick out of several kids who did firebuilding in the morning and then dragged their moms and dads back in the afternoon to do it again. It was an open-ended program - no timeslots or schedules; program simply operated from 10-noon and 1-5 p.m., and you could do whatever you wanted whenever you wanted. Most traveled with their packs or dens, though there were a few parent-child floaters who wanted to do their own thing. From a logistical standpoint, the key thing is having lots of activities spread out across the camp, so you don't have a couple hundred people clustered in one or two areas. We had BB, archery, inflatables (moon bounce, etc.), Showmanship-type theatrical activities, a nature hike, knot-tying, firebuilding, parachute games and arts & crafts. We probably could have used some more - smaller "stations" such as flags, Kim's Game, etc. - because we occasionally ended up with two groups arriving at the same time. Trying to accommodate 40 people around a firebuilding platform isn't easy. You mentioned Webelos activities. This year, we had the Webelos who spent the night Friday team up with an experienced staff member (a former summer camp program director) who helped them cook breakfast on their own on Saturday morning and then do special activity badge-oriented programs with them during the day - he did some Outdoorsman, Naturalist and Readyman-type stuff, talking up the camp's Boy Scout programs as he went. That might be one option for you. It's a huge testament to your council's staff and volunteers that they were able to handle the extra numbers with little sweat. That sounds like a good team.

The problem mostly boils down to the emphasis that parents and leaders place on activity levels - not just fitness. If your pack meets inside a church hall to do arts & crafts, and your troop just goes car camping, your boys are going to get used to a very low level of physical activity. As a Cub, my den met outside for the majority of the year. My parents were den leaders, and we had a two-acre property on which my dad had set up what amounted to a homemade playground for me, my brother and our friends. We had monkey bars, a swing set, a climbing rope, a swinging rope, tires for high-stepping, a plastic tunnel to crawl through, multiple wooden spools for jumping and climbing and a low balance beam. So the den had all that stuff to play on. We aced all those fitness achievements, even the kids who weren't the most athletic to begin with, because we practiced and had fun. And putting all that stuff together probably cost less than $500, because my dad scrounged and scavenged and welded and hammered it all together on his own. There wasn't any worry about lawsuits should some kid fall off the monkey bars and break his arm. It really was a different time. When we got into Boy Scouts, that fun mostly stopped. We met inside the American Legion hall and later a church room. We went car camping, tied to the umbilical cord of the trailer and those damned propane tanks. (But that's another rant for another time.) It wasn't until I got older, joined the OA and started working on camp staff that I discovered the real practical importance of good general fitness. Hauling tent platforms, 4x4s, outriggers, canvas, poles, picnic tables and loaded chuck boxes is challenging work if you're not somewhat aerobically conditioned and have at least a little muscle. We CITs and younger staffers also had some big, strapping men to look up to - college guys and teachers who weren't bodybuilders, but still could toss stuff around like it was styrofoam. Lesson? To get and keep the younger kids fit, activity levels need to be (a) constant and (b) fun. The same for older kids, though it there are two added elements: © there needs to be a practical reason for it, and (d) your leaders need to model the same behavior. If your troop only does the Tenderfoot tests without a regularly active program, and your leaders and parents have bellies that they can balance a soda can on while walking, your boys probably aren't going to be able to do pull-ups.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

... aren't good at coaching boys on da proper ways to exercise for improvement? After all, that's not in any of the BSA training. No, but there's plenty of stuff in the Handbook and in the Physical Fitness MB about how Scouts can exercise. There's lots of stuff that's "not in any of the BSA training" that we're expected to either learn about or locate the proper resources for. Training can't cover everything ... but it's a simple matter to call up a high school gym teacher or coach and ask if they can help out for an hour's session.

A few notes of clarification. He said to let my committee chairperson know because if he is to be removed from the pack it has to come from the Committee. I can't do it myself as Cubmaster. Additionally I do know this -- I need to be careful with this one because I don't want to have a lawsuit slapped on me... Your DE is wrong. The CO can remove the CC, not the committee. And even if you unilaterally tried to remove the CC, you wouldn't get slapped with a lawsuit. Volunteer Scouting isn't like a paid job. We're a small pack and troop so we are set up a little different. We don't have a parents' committee.. Our unit commissioner is 85 years old and it is difficult for him to get things done sometimes... There's no such thing in Scouting as a parent committee. There is such a thing as a pack committee. The unit commissioner is supposed to be a resource and sounding board for units, not a member of the pack leadership.

it's already been placed on the agenda by the secretary as this is how we work.. He's been spoken to multiple times but to no avail. If your troop committee is so rule-ridden and legalistic as to actually have a formal agenda, then it's a simple matter to take it off. Under standard procedure, the agenda must be approved at the beginning of the meeting, right after the call to order and before the approval of the minutes of the last meeting. Simply make a motion that this particular agenda item be stricken, get a second and take a vote to remove it. You started the boulder rolling downhill, and you can stop it. On the flipside - if you're presenting (what sure sounds like) a laundry list of complaints about an SM who has served the troop for a quarter-century, without having first taken the courteous step of speaking to the SM one-on-one, then be prepared for that same SM to become incredibly insulted (as would I), rip off his patch, toss it on the table and walk out. Then be prepared for the committee to turn to you to step in to that role and clean up the mess.

and was told that they were doing a "cook off." Which is not fulfilling any requirements... so my question is this - if the boys are overweight and need to work on this requirement as well as others why is the scoutmaster dictating these types of things? Yes - the cook off was done because HE wanted to do it. One bit of friendly advice - drop the point of view that every activity has to fulfill a requirement or meet an advancement item. This isn't Cubs, where almost every activity can and does fulfill a requirement. Lots of things are just for fun! And honing one's cooking skills - while perhaps not done during a formal "class" - certainly do help a Scout expand his abilities in the outdoors, and perhaps accomplish something for Cooking MB. Second - just because the troop isn't doing a fitness activity doesn't mean your son can't. There's nothing barring him, or any other Scout, from working on this stuff at home, or at school, or with his patrol at a patrol meeting. Don't blame the SM's interest in cooking for a Scout's inability to do a pull-up. That's like the pizzas - a totally separate issue. Other than that, I echo Beavah's good counsel. Edited to add: cp, you wrote in your first post: "If they are not going to be able to advance then why would I feed the troop?" Please take a look at that sentence again, and think about it in light of your Scouting training. You don't "feed the troop." The Cubs coming from your pack choose which troops to join. Similarly, take yourself out of the equation with this troop and try to look at the situation from an outsider's perspective. Take some deep breaths. And talk to the SM first.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

Additionally ... Now my other leaders are telling me that they don't want to head up any activity because they are feeling badly about not being able to give him the one on one attention that he requires. It's not the responsibility of your other leaders to give this boy one-on-one attention. As a Tiger, that's the responsibility of his adult partner. Also, after re-reading the original post: Why was the mother not in the swimming pool with her son to provide that "knee"? My Committee Chairperson is also unwilling to step up right now - so I'll be bringing this to the committee meeting this week... IMHO, this isn't a committee issue. This parent doesn't seem to understand the purpose and methods of the Scouting program, let alone her role in it. This can be handled between you, the Tiger DL and the mother, explaining (and probably re-explaining) how Tigers works AND the basic behavioral expectations of the den and the pack.

For the latter approach, break the event up into its component parts. You need someone to reserve a campground, someone to coordinate food, someone to plan activities, someone to track registrations, etc. Write those duties out, with an estimate of how much time each would take and a blank space beside each one for someone to put their name and contact info, and distribute them to all your parents. Explain that you need people to fill these roles, or the pack can't go on the overnight. Ask for volunteers to write down their info and pass the forms forward. You or the BALOO-trained person for the pack can be the coordinator, but coordinating is all you should have to do.