ScoutParent

Your post was too sketchy to get a clear poicture...How many troops is this scout registered in? If he hasn't completed paperwork then he is still a member of your troop until the charter expires. Do you have written rules concerning monies from fundraising? What do the rules pertaining to these circumstances read? Why would you want to prevent him from receiving financial assistance if he is entitled to it? What behavioral problems is he causing if he isn't active in the troop? What position in the troop did his parent's hold?

All the information you requested can be found at the following site:

www.usma.edu/USCC/DCA/Clubs/scou/frequent.htm#when

From the Guide to Safe Scouting:

"The unit should inform the Scout executive about all incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member."

It is clear by this that the BSA recognizes the difference between a case of sexual misconduct by an adult against a youth member and two boys of the same approximate age acting inappropriately. Since it has been alleged that sexual misconduct occurred, it is your responsibility to report it to the scout executive. It is likely that no actual crime was committed but if it is actions that make a scout uncomfortable then action should be taken to alleviate this type of behavior in the future.

Should he be thrown out of scouting? What is his record in the troop? Has he engaged in inappropriate behaviors before this? Did he understand that he had made a mistake and how has he acted since this incident? Generally when young children of either gender act this way it has more to do with them being victimized at some time than it does with them showing signs of being a predator themselves. Has anyone spoken to the parents and recommended counseling to see if that possibility exists?

From an employer matrix on JobWeb.com:

A Professional Scouting Position

Most entry-level positions are that of district executive. The district executive manages the overall growth, extension, quality, program enhancement, and supervision of the Scouting program within a specified geographical area. The Scouter oversees a corps of adult volunteers who in turn support, train, and motivate the adult volunteer leaders delivering the Scouting program. Though most of the work deals with human relations, fund-raising administration and public relations are vital additional duties of the district executive.

Congratulations, Mike! Hope you have as much happiness and joy in rearing your daughter as our son has brought to our lives!

Bob, first of all I am not angry at you at all; I was merely explaining what I felt was offensive about your responses. I referred to specific incidences when I felt you had been offensive one to me and one to another individual. These were not the only instances but rather the two that most easily came to mind. Since you felt the need to defend your positions at all cost I will rebut your answer: On page 13 Boy Scout Handbook Eleventh Edition copyright 1998 it states " For outdoor activities, Scouts may wear troop or camp T-Shirts with the Scout pants or shorts". The fact that it was also in the SPL Handbook which came out later was immaterial. It has been in the Boy Scout Handbook all along. Secondly, I did not attempt to stack the deck in favor of our position in any way whatsoever when seeking information about the rules, regulations or policies of the BSA concerning finances and I certainly did follow the suggestions you gave whether you choose to believe that or not. What made you decide that I hadn't is anyone's guess. That is all well and good but is not the topic that I was answering rather examples to exemplify why your style of posting on this forum may be offensive to some people. Does this mean that people do not value some of what you have to add? Certainly not. Does this mean that you are above reproach and always correct? Again, certainly not. When a person who leads or trains shows disdain towards those he professes to lead or train, something is lost. Since you seem dedicated to Scouts and to providing others with training maybe you could work on this part of your leadership skills a little.

# 1. On many topics Bob White has correctly referenced policies and regulations and on many he has incorrectly referenced policies and regulations. In far too many instances Bob White jumps to conclusions about the poster's character and administration of the "program" with very little information to base his opinions on. Bob White was offensive to me when I referred to the district finance committee in one post and he told me that the postman would have been just as helpful. A statement that suprised me since the people at the (council) scout office were directing me but I took it as true since Bob said it. Upon further research I found that actually it was the right committee to deal with the type of concerns I had. He has made several disparaging comments to people with just as little information as he had in the circumstance. In another thread where uniforms were being discussed, Bob again incorrectly stated facts and when corrected instead of accepting it gracefully and learning a little more himself, he made an excuse that the information was in the SPL book and he hadn't gotten that when the original post was made; looking in the boy scout handbook, I see the same information on that particular topic in there. Just accept it when you are wrong and learn, Bob, like you espouse that you want everyone else to. As all of us are human, there is room for all to improve and learn always. Sometimes it seems Bob's interpretations of the rules and regulations are slightly askew and I question his understanding of some of them.

# 2. Why I directly asked Bob a question when I became a forum member was because he seemed to thoroughly research the answers he gave and base them on policies and regulations he could quote. It seemed he had the information available to him that I was seeking and as the regulations are hard to find in one place on the internet, I was hoping he would have access to them.

While real ADD&ADHD exist, the cases are much more rare than the instances in which kids are put on Ritalin are. One thing that most of the students involved in school shootings had in common was that they were all taking Ritalin. Causing migraines, loss of appetite, sleeplessness, etc, the medicine should be only by those few rare kids who have ADD. While many believe that only subjective monitoring by a teacher, parent or doctor can be used to diagnose these conditions, it is actually true that a CATSCAN will reveal abnormal brain patterns in an individual with this condition at least 65% of the time. With all of this said, how many of the doctors that diagnosed ADD in your children tried any type of behavior modification program before prescribing this medication? Diet modifications? How many of you have had your children's IQ tested?

Now for the school system---The whole idea is to appeal to the masses. Anything that can not be applied to the group as a whole is unpopular in today's public schools. Individual excellence is not held in esteem as it once was; instead it's bring the lowest kids to the middle and the highest kids to the middle. NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND--a nice theory but the way to achieve it is to LOWER STANDARDS. All states have mandates requiring children with disabilities to be taught differently but very few have similiar mandates for gifted children. Gifted children's needs are as real and as important as any other's. Many times gifted children are perceived as "smart alecks" because they will see things differently and express themselves in a manner inconsistent with others of their age level.

SCTMOM it seems with the things you've shared about your son he very well may be gifted. Many gifted children will be extremely high in some areas and will not perform as well in others. His interest in all things mechanical and his engineering abilities may in fact indicate a very high math ability. His verbal or english skills not being as high could make him qualify as learning disabled--a condition not many people realize exists or understand at all (including veteran teachers) It is worth it to have their IQ's tested and then advocate for your child to get the best education possible.

sst3rd,

Invite all the 2nd year webelos in your area on a troop camp out or other troop function. It doesn't have to be just the webelos from the troop that your co sponsors. Explain the recruiter strip to the current scouts and challenge them to each bring a friend to the next troop outing.

Does the new patrol have a troop guide working with them?

He might just be feeling alot of pressure right now--so many things to adjust to in middle school alone let alone going from oldest in pack to youngest in troop. Try to let him take a break for a week or two. Let him know that you think it is important for him to have a little time off to think about it and relax. Keep attending the meetings yourself and then after a couple weeks see if he doesn't grab his book and get ready to go.

Our cub scout pack bought gifts for the local children's home. In our den we set up with a department store to have a table to gift wrap customer's purchases (for donations only). After we were done wrapping gifts for the day, the boys packed up the tables, etc and we went shopping together for our gifts for the children's home and then we wrapped them at the next den meeting. A representative from the children's home came to the pack meeting and you never saw more proud boys taking gifts.

Let's share some service project ideas. Recently a group our family is involved in sponsored a project providing Backpacks filled with school supplies to students whose family's might not be able to afford it otherwise. Okay, now your turn--some different service projects that you have done.

Keeping our kids safe is such an awesome responsibility--easy to feel overwhelmed by all the negative material we see. I think it is imperative to talk with our kids from an early age; explain to them that sometimes people do things that aren't nice; let them know that they can tell you anything; give them some scenarios of how an adult might try to trick them into going with them or doing things with them that aren't healthy for them and what to do if that occurs. Don't be afraid to be considered a little paranoid. Remember that it is better to be too safe than not safe enough. Buddy system is great--even for older boys. Have them tell you where they will be and when they will be home. Have access to their email accounts and know how to use the computer as well as your children do. It is our responsibilty to supervise our children's activities--don't buy into the popular belief that it denotes a lack of trust-- it doesn't.

Sctmom, take a trip to the scout store or troop library with your son and have him pick out a merit badge book he is interested in completing. Get the list of counselors and have him call and schedule a meeting. Then he can begin working on something that he is directly interested in. Get him going on his advancements (help practice at home). While you can't sign off on the requirements, you can certainly work together as much as you like and it sounds like he enjoys that time with you doing those things together and is missing that. Talk with him about scout meetings and get him thinking of what he would like to see happening in meetins. Have him call his patrol leader with some suggestions of things he would like to see incorporated into meetings. There will be high and low points of interest level for each scout. If there is a particular activity he has been waiting to try or a rank he's been interested in attaining; remind him of those during the low points to help him through those times. Sometimes the best thing to do is sort of stand back and let the boy get through it--use your mother's intuition. It's usually right. Good Luck.

How many of you have participated in this program and received this award?

Eagle90, I believe the point that was being made was that 18+ wouldn't be aged out if you had a venture program. They could continue to be active members until 21 as well as serve as leadership to the younger boys. Also that if you have that many leaders and not quite as many boys, wouldn't it be better serve the boy's interests to plan more outings and take advantage of all the individuals willing to participate as leaders?

Bob, sorry if I offended you in some way, it certainly wasn't my intention. We've come to depend on you as somewhat of an authority on rules and regulations so when you post something concerning policies many take it as 100% correct, sorry just goes with the territory. I felt it necessary to make the correction so no misunderstandings occur.

It's important for leaders to take turns going on outings for another reason---to limit burnout. I've seen lots of good people try to attend every outing and eventually they burn out. Taking turns keeps this from happening and gives the kids a chance to experience camp outs without any parents. To me this is an essential rite of passage. Not to mention a weekend without kids can be fun for the parents too.

Bob White writes:

"Read the rules for backcountry and the minimum increases to four."

Safety rule of four:

No fewer than four individuals (always with the minimum of two adults) go on any backcountry expedition or campout. If an accident occurs, one person stays with the injured, and two go for help. Additional adult leadership requirements must reflect an awareness of such factors as size and skill level of the group, anticipated environmental conditions, and overall degree of challenge.

Bob, are you purposely being misleading or did you not understand that was 2 adults; 2 scouts cited in that rule? Note also that the amount of leadership present is a direct reflection of the skill levels of the scouts involved.

He (BW) further writes:

"Saying "no you can't come" is denying access."

Bob, where did you get that quote? It wasn't in any of scoutperson's posts....

"If they can visit anytime, then why not let them stay anytime? It's like telling a parent they can't come to a little league game to watch their kid play. The parents don't play the game, and they don't send a message to their children that they don't trust their baseball ability because they came to watch."

"Too many parents settle for "being aware of where their boys are" rather than being there with them."

I have to question why you would feel such a pressing need to be at every camp out. Maybe you should try some family camping--then when it's time for the boys to go on Boy Scout camp outs, you will find it easier to let go a little. A major part of parenting is knowing the difference between being supportive and being obsessive. To let a young man go on a camping trip with his troop without being omnipresent is not settling; it's letting your child grow. Your analogy to watching a Little League game and BSA camp outs is without merit.

In all the BSA literature I researched on this topic, family camping was a separate and distinct outing from regular camp outs. On regular camp outs it is viewed as positive to have trained, screened leadership available to the boys.

Now the question I leave you with is how often do boys in any of your troops get an opportunity to go on patrol activities with no adult leadership?

Two-deep leadership:

Two registered adult leaders, or one registered adult and a parent of a participating Scout, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA.

No secret organizations. The Boy Scouts of America does not recognize any secret organizations as part of its program. All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders.

Discouraging large amounts of parents from attending at any one given time is not in violation of the Youth Safety Guide. To unequivocally deny them access or keep activites on campouts secret would be. However we as parents are always fully aware of where our boys are at all times and can always drop in to observe. Most of the problems with adults that you have discussed could be avoided if the parents were willing to let their sons go on the camp outs with the troop and become independent young men. Look at it from the scout's perspective on one hand you are telling them to use their skills and judgement and on the other hand you are showing them that they can't be trusted without your presence on every outing. Actions speak louder than words. Letting the troop function as it was designed builds self confidence and skills that last a lifetime.

I ran into a SM like ScoutPerson who made it clear they didn't need or want parents around, either as leaders or volunteers. My son hated that troop, since it turned out that the bigger boys delighted in torturing the younger, and we left for greener pastures where the adults don't confuse reasonable and necessary observation with interference.

It's appalling that you can make that kind of statement without ever having met the man. The implication you make about my son and the other older scouts is ridiculous. Shame on you!!!

What Scoutperson is doing in restricting adults is risky, not needed and very likely a violation of youth protection.

Bob, I'm quite suprised you added this paragraph--I could find nothing to indicate it was a violation of youth protection.

What I did find was the need to be extremely selective about the leaders recruited, the importance of screening and of training. I rest more easily knowing there are not all sorts of parents that have not had background checks running around my son's camp while he's sleeping at night. There is a reason that these safeguards are in place--let's not undermine them.

Zippy's example occurred within a cub scout camping trip. Had that happened within the Boy Scout Troop that scoutperson leads, the boys have been trained and would know how to react in an emergency situation. Our son has been under his leadership as a young scout and is once again under his leadership as an older scout. The boys enjoy the outings and are able to grow in scouting the way it is intended.

I guess it totally depends on your outlook on life. For me, marriage is a Holy Sacrament and part of that is having children. For me to purposely place myself in a position to damage the health of those children, irrevocably, is definitely an affront to God. As far as a health risk to myself, that never entered into the equation as the waiver only waived the rights of children I would bear. As a soldier, you expect there to be risks to yourself; just by the very nature of the job.

I have a valid example of when duty to God conflicted with duty to country. While serving in the United States Army, Military Police Corps, I was asked to sign a health waiver and guard a physical security site. The physical security site contained materials that could be harmful to any children I could have (even in the future). I said no to signing the waiver and when asked why I explained that it was against my religious beliefs and that it wasn't what God expected from me. My commander didn't understand then and I would guess he still wouldn't. I think that in that instance I prioritized 1) God, 2)Family and then 3)Country.

It sounds like you set it up to tell them and then to remind them at least once which is good. Some of the initiative has to come from the individuals being told. Troop websites and a troop newletter are both good ways to post information once and can be referred to if memories are dim.

As far as pulling their son out of trips at the last minute, that would certainly be annoying. Did you make it clear to the 2nd father that sign ups for the canoeing trip were on a particular date and that only those signed up by that date could participate. Was a swimmer testing offered? Were the parents and scouts notified in advance?

Having been a cub scout leader from tigers through 2nd year Webelos, I understand how frustrating it is for you when parents don't take the time to read materials you've spent your time preparing. Most of the time I found that they would rely on the leader to remind them if the leader was willing to do that. An instance like you explained where they are not able to participate is probably one of the best ways to get their attention. Now they will probably be sure to read everything! Sometimes it's hard to know who is learning more from scouting...the scouts or the scout's parents! Personally, I believe we all grow through the experience, Leaders, parents, and scouts alike.