ScoutParent

jcfraz: another point of view for you to consider follows-------

John McCain explains the Pledge of Allegiance

By Sen. John S. McCain, a Vietnam era Navy Captain and POW

WASHINGTON, DC -- As you may know, I spent five and one half years as a prisoner of war during the Vietnam War. In the early years of our imprisonment, the NVA kept us in solitary confinement or two or three to a cell. In 1971 the NVA moved us from these conditions of isolation into large rooms with as many as 30 to 40 men to a room. This was, as you can imagine, a wonderful change and was a direct result of the efforts of millions of Americans on behalf of a few hundred POWs 10,000 miles from home.

One of the men who moved into my room was a young man named Mike Christian. Mike came from a small town near Selma, Alabama. He didn't wear a pair of shoes until he was 13 years old. At 17, he enlisted in the US Navy. He later earned a commission by going to Officer Training School. Then he became a Naval Flight Officer and was shot down and captured in 1967. Mike had a keen and deep appreciation of the opportunities this country, and our military, provide for people who want to work and want to succeed. As part of the change in treatment, the Vietnamese allowed some prisoners to receive packages from home. In some of these packages were handkerchiefs, scarves and other items of clothing. Mike got himself a bamboo needle.

Over a period of a couple of months, he created an American flag and sewed it on the inside of his shirt. Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike's shirt on the wall of the cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance. I know the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important part of our day now, but I can assure you that in that stark cell, it was indeed the most important and meaningful event .

One day the Vietnamese searched our cell, as they did periodically, and discovered Mike's shirt with the flag sewn inside, and removed it. That evening they returned, opened the door of the cell, and for the benefit of all us, beat Mike Christian severely for the next couple of hours.

Then, they opened the door of the cell and threw him in. We cleaned him up as well as we could. The cell in which we lived had a concrete slab in the middle on which we slept. Four naked light bulbs hung in each corner of the room. As said, we tried to clean up Mike as well as we could. After the excitement died down, I looked in the corner of the room, and sitting there beneath that dim light bulb with a piece of red cloth, another shirt and his bamboo needle, was my friend, Mike Christian. He was sitting there with his eyes almost shut from the beating he had received, making another American flag.

He was not making the flag because it made Mike Christian feel better. He was making that flag because he knew how important it was to us to be able to pledge our allegiance to our flag and country.

So the next time you say the Pledge of Allegiance, you must never forget the sacrifice and courage that thousands of Americans have made to build our nation and promote freedom around the world. You must remember our duty, our honor, and our country.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

In this particular troop the individual scout accounts could be used for anything pertaining to scouting. For instance our son has paid for his entire uniform, every summer camp, almost every camp out, two major trips, and his books. This gives the scouts a sense of accomplishment and pride when they see how to earn their own way. When any scout transferred they transferred the account to the new troop. When a scout left scouting, the troop waited until the scout turned 18 (in case he had a change of heart and wished to return) and then the money became part of the general troop treasury. The troop treasurer kept a database of each individual account and no interest was awarded to each scout. It is simply a means to afford scouts the opportunity to earn their own way in scouting. For big trips it was required that the scout earn at least 60% themselves.

Just to clarify--we aren't "taking" our son anywhere. The decision to transfer was his and we didn't disagree with it. He has been in scouts since 1st grade and been a member of one cub pack, and now this is his second troop. He has always loved scouting and takes it very seriously. If the troop was no longer suiting his needs I see no reason to hold him back from going to one that will.

Our son stayed for 2 years after the current leadership took over out of loyalty to the troop he started scouting with. He tried his best and when he had had enough he decided to transfer; never expecting a problem transferring his money. So while it wasn't planned it also wasn't a quick or easy decision on his part. While we haven't said or done anything to hurt this troop, we are still pursuing getting the money either: A. transferred or B. for him to be able to use it at the council store.

and your responses sound quite humorous to me

Sorry folks, no policy you haven't been told about; no loose ends to justify this leadership's actions.

As far as the purpose of these fundraisers...they were billed by the leadership of the troop as being entirely for the individual scout accounts. So, yes, the purpose in participating in these was to fatten his individual scout account. That is not to say that he hasn't participated faithfully every year in the Troop fundraiser. And every year it was made clear to each and every person that there is only ONE TROOP FUNDRAISER per year...all others benefit the individual scout account to be used for scouting needs (ie uniforms, camping, summer camp, gear, big trips, etc). It is offensive that you intimate that our son is only involved in areas for personal gain. Scouting is not the only service related organization he belongs to and in fact has spent a large portion of his short life improving the quality of life for others WITHOUT personal gain.

Transferring was not a forecasted move... it was a move that was determined by the fact that the troop was no longer following the boy scout methods. The committee has essentially reduced the boy leaders to puppets and gophers and our son tried to work with them to change it and hit brick walls repeatedly. Advancement procedures were not used in accordance with BSA policies...scoutmaster conferences were turned from a 10-20 minute chat with boys about goals etc into 3 meeting grilling sessions going over every item in the book--an insult to the boy's character and abilities. The planning session an spl and sm hold with the pl's was run by the sm's wife instead of the spl...the parameters of what they could plan were determined by the sm and committee. Patrols were not allowed to cook their own meals as the younger scouts "might hurt themselves on the camp stoves". Uniforms are being worn any way they please--untucked, tucked, with dog collars, with colored tshirts sticking out the sleeves, you name it...formations look like mass chaos...our son was ashamed to be seen with this group any longer and the adults were unwilling to support the boy leaders in affecting changes. Parents volunteered their skills and time and were never called on. Scouts planned meetings and activities and the sm changed them at the last minute--not due to safety or inappropriate content. Prizes were given to every boy at summer camp regardless of performance. The troop stopped receiving awards from summer camp as they had in the past.

Since our son has transferred, we have not said or done anything unprofessional to reflect poorly on this troop out of respect for the boys who continue on in it yet our good name has been put into question by the sm and his wife in an effort to justify their actions. So if anything has been left out, it is how far this troop has gone from Boy Scouting ideals and how many times our son worked to affect changes before he decided to transfer. Since the current leadership took over it has gone from being the best troop in town to the weakest.

We tried this and the first screen turned out ok but the second one was great! We used the inkjet printer with transparencies. We found that setting it on the densenst setting and printing two was the best way for us. Then we stapled the transparencies together in the middle of the paper strip.

The kit we purchased was one made by Speedball available at Arts & Crafts stores. It contained the screen, photo sensitizer, emulsion liquid, screen filler, drawing fluid, squeegee and textile ink. It was about $ 50.00.

Thanks again for the help, Mike!

Mike,

Thanks very much. I'll try it and let you know how it goes.

No experience in making the screen. Would like to use the photo emulsion method. Have a design with black and white. My question is which part will print--the part that is black or the part that is white (so we get it right before we do all that work to the screen)

Has anyone done screenprinting at home/camp? What method did you use to prepare screen--tips hints, etc.

Our pack picked a theme for each blue and gold banquet. One year it was Knights of the Round Table, another year it was Under the Big Top and another it was Native Americans. The kids made table decorations, costumes and skits based on the theme. Personally, I didn't like this approach as much as a traditional blue and gold but was outvoted. The year that we had Under the Big Top, we had sawdust on the floor, a brown paper big top, we had a caterer that brought hot dog machines, cotton candy, popcorn, etc. My den made lion candy dishes for the tables, we had inflatables for the centerpieces that each boy and his sibilings took home. The year it was Native Americans, a Tepee was at the door opening into the banquet. We had a turkey dinner (again catered) My den made vests out of brown paper grocery bags, scrunched up, wet and dried--they looked alot like leather and then they added beads, crayon markings, etc. (they were tiger cubs) and they made canoes and tepees out of brown paper for candy dishes--a diorama of long houses for the centerpieces. From start to finish, with dinner, skits, and awards our blue and golds were only 2 1/2-3 hours long. Cleanup was about 45-60 minutes extra which dens were assigned to ahead of time.

Our pack had awards that were given at the monthly pack meeting. One was for the den with the most parents (% wise) in attendance. For the parent's attendance to count they had to be seated at the table with the scouts. The award was a bear with a cub scout uniform on that was rotated to the winning den each month. The other award was for the den that had the most spirit with their den yell. It too was a rotating award. It was alot of fun and the kids really worked towards having the award for the month. Of course then it's important to have the award present at every den meeting to reinforce it. You can also take a moment at the beginning of a pack meeting to explain "sign's up" and the need to be respectful during the meeting.

Probably one of the most important ideas to impart on your son is that no matter what anyone tells him you and your husband are adults and can protect yourselves and him so if anyone ever threatens your safety in exchange for his silence to come IMMEDIATELY to you and let you know because it is wrong. Pedophiles would have a much smaller chance to intimidate children if parents let them know this one important fact.

I think it's important to teach your son to do what his conscience tells him is the right thing. There is no way you can insulate him from all possible repercussions but throughout life there are tough calls to make and the right ones are sometimes the hardest. I guess we also have to put a certain amount of trust in the leadership to be professional and keep the names of scouts that do speak out confidential when situations like this occur. It's important too, to let your son know that you are always there to support him and to come and talk to you about any situations that make him uncomfortable or that he has questions on. It could actually help someone like the older scout in the example that was used too. There may be a reason why he is speaking to younger scouts about inappropriate subjects (ie someone older may have broached him in a likewise inappropriate manner and he may be acting out)

Doesn't seem like there would be much of a downside of having reference material readily available to leaders and parents alike.

I cut and pasted Bob. I did not infere that there were no other parts to the conversation but rather copied the parts that were relevant to what we were discussing.

Now on to the team analogy--where are the refs in the BSA?

How about a well planned survey given to scouts and parents addressing specific topics; filled out anonymously and returned to the local district where they can be tallied and areas needing more training or improvement can be targeted?

"Keep in mind as I mentioned in my first post the Chater Org. has all the control of finances, if the committee and the Charter rep say no, then it's no."

"A national policy already exists. It says that money earned by the troop belongs to the troop"

"As you are aware the CO owns the unit and its assets. Your advice will only frustrate the family more without changing the outcome."

"The law says the money belongs to the chartering organization"

These are direct quotes from you, Bob. You mentioned the national policy.

I guess I wasn't clear on the idea that people that differ in opinion from you are not necessarily twisting the program. I'm not saying concentrate on what the program may be in the future, I'm saying that dissent from popularly held opinions can affect change. All change is not bad. Changes in policy that would clarify issues would be good. To include specific examples of "traditions" that would now be considered hazing would be a good thing. It would help make it more clear for all to understand.

A dictionary defining words like hazing would be a good thing. A National Policy guiding troop committees in specific ways of handling money would be a good thing. If it doesn't exist already then it's not necessary is not a good idea. I appreciate your support and your answers but I don't necessarily agree with all of them.

I respectfully disagree, Bob. Your interpretation of the unit finance policies and mine are different. Did I refuse to believe what I read or not read it? Certainly not, I just came to a different conclusion then you did. It says "It is important that the unit committee understands its responsiblity in guiding the finances of the unit. It promotes the proper use of the unit budget plan, both as a sound method of securing unit funds and also as a means of training boys in thrift, in paying their own way, and in the planning and wise administration of the unit funds" It also says "The unit committee is the custodian of all unit funds". Your interpretation is that the unit owns the money--period--final--that's it. My interpretation is that they are to take care of the money and distribute it fairly and wisely.

Your definition of discipline was one that differed from mine. In my opinion your definition more closely fit the definition of self control or self discipline than of discipline.

I applaud a deep committment to the ideals of scouting but then shouldn't we follow the basics of respect and courtesy when addressing one another? You have a wealth of knowledge and resources available to you; certainly of value to the rest of us. You have to give the new leaders some credit too and realize that they will have the ability to discern the difference between good advice and not so good advice.

Just like changes have already been made in the scouting program, changes will continue to be made. Someone with an opinion that differs from yours does not necessarily mean they are "twisting" the program. Maybe they are part of a force that will, in the future, affect a change.

Personally, I believe in a 100% boy led troop utilizing the patrol method. Does this always happen--a resounding no! Should we continue to strive towards the betterment of all our troops programs--definitely. How can we best do this--through mature and considerate behavior towards one another, through dialogue, through example, through citing scout resources. It is easy to get carried away with these topics and get angry, believe me I know that but alot of the problems occur because the terms are vague and oblique. How much easier it would be if specific "traditions" were addressed when changes in policy are made. Do I personally belive that it will harm most boys to sing a song in front of the group when they lose an item--no but obviously many people do and they changed the policy to try to exclude this so why not address it specifically. While it may not be possible to address every single issue, many of these "traditions" are widespread and well known and could easily be listed as unacceptable. Maybe a Scout dictionary is something to consider.

"I agree, you will never get everyone to read off the same page. Not becaause the same page doesn't exist, but because there will always be people who don't believe what they read or choose not to read."

How about different people read the same words and come to different understandings? I believe it is this attitude that makes people angry with you, Bob and not actually what you have to say. Why is it so hard to see that people with different backgrounds, educational levels and abilities volunteer in scouting and that to have open dialogue is the best way to come together on important issues. Deprecating attitudes and comments do not add to the dialogue. I would say it is why there are scholars in every avenue of life from law to theology, from architecture to botany, from cancer research to psychology--we can all learn from one another if we open our minds and hearts to differing opinions.

"All forms of hazing, initiations, ridicule, or inappropriate teasing are prohibited and should not be allowed."

Singing for a lost item, does not, in my opinion, violate this policy. Ridicule is a strong word and must include dissaprobation in it's usage. Singing for an item does not constitute disapprobation. Nor do I think it follows under the veil of hazing after looking that word up in the dictionary. While I don't necessarily endorse this practice, if we asked the scouts, they would probably have less problem with this practice then any of the parents posting on this board. I also think it is important to note that the policy says all forms of "INAPPROPRIATE TEASING ARE PROHIBITED". It does not say teasing is prohibited. Ridicule and teasing are very different. Singing for one's lost items is more closely akin to teasing than to ridicule.

If they were told repeatedly to settle and would not after lights out could you have given them a task to perform? Prepare something for the next day's activities? Then the next morning when they are tired from not sleeping as long as was available, reinforce the importance of following the lights out rule of quiet behavior? Not in a demeaning way, but in a way designed to show that actions have consequences and not directed directly at the boys that comitted the infraction but in general.

As far as the part of where does encouragement end and harassment begin, I think if the boy knew that it was his patrol's turn to do the flag ceremony and he was told in advance that he would be taking part, he should be expected to do it. Just explain that every boy has taken part at one time or another and that while it may be hard at first, it will become easier with practice. It, like so much of scouting is a learning and growing experience that he will appreciate later.

There will never be 100% agreement on policies as long as there are people from different areas and backgrounds coming together with their own interpretations of these policies. Every time a legislative body of our governments make a new ordinance, law or statute, they try to eliminate the gray areas and still you have lawyers arguing cases based on their interpetations of these ordinances, laws and statutes. It's part of being members of a free society and thinking independently. The great thing is we have a forum to discuss our opinions and hopefully we can use it to come to fuller understandings by exchanging our ideas and to the betterment of scouting.

"The BSA does not permit the use of corporal punishment by unit leaders when disciplining youth members."

It is obvious by this statement that you may not use corporal punishment while disciplining youth members but what does disciplining mean? When I looked it up in the dictionary, I found the following:

tr.v. disciplined, disciplining, disciplines

To train by instruction and practice, especially to teach self-control to.

To teach to obey rules or accept authority. See Synonyms at teach.

To punish in order to gain control or enforce obedience. See Synonyms at punish.

To impose order on: needed to discipline their study habits.

As you can see you may use punishments while in the act of disciplining. You also may impose order in the act of disciplining. Time out & loss of privileges are two ways to accomplish this. Other methods that I would prefer to see used include POSITIVE reinforcement such as awards or perks for good behavior. I don't think it is an eagerness to punish scouts but rather an eagerness to understand the expectations of the BSA that is driving this discussion.

To blithely answer that there is no contract or that the money belongs to the charter organization indicates that you haven't understood the situation. Let's start out again--when our son joined the troop there was a different set of leadership in place. We were told then and repeatedly throughout his tenure with the troop that the money he earned on each fund raiser, except one specific one per year, was to placed in an account for his scouting needs. At no time was it indicated that these needs would only be honored as long as they were with the troop in question. Since that time any boy that has transferred to another troop has transferred their money as well. We were never given a set of written rules and certainly never any rule changes. It was repeated over and over and over again that these fund raisers were for the individual scout to earn money for uniforms, camping, trips, etc. Then our son decides to transfer and suddenly they are making a policy that he can not transfer his money. If you find this acceptable then I ask you to look into your own hearts and ask yourselves what is the purpose of scouting and what are you hoping to teach boys through scouting.

This money represents hours in the cold selling items, waking in the middle of the night to take a shift at another fund raiser, cold calling door to door for others, this is hours and hours of work and was on the basic premise that he would be able to use it for his scouting needs. What good purpose would the Charter organization or the troop have for withholding this from a boy that wishes to continue in scouting. Please don't respond with the pat answer of "because they can" It certainly doesn't portray Scout leadership in a positive light. I would like to know what good intentions a troop or committee or charter organization would have to with hold this money from a scout who simply feels a different troop would address his scouting needs more effectively.

FScouter,

Of course the scenario you describe would not be right but that is not the situation. Time and time again we were told there was only ONE TROOP FUNDRAISER per year--all the rest were for the scouts to raise money for their accounts to fund their uniforms, camp outs, trips, etc. At no time did they say for activities sponsored by this troop. At no time did they give us a set of rules that indicated that was the case. We would not ask for the portion of the troop treasury that he contributed but that is NOT the situation. So yes, each boy worked hard on these particular fund raisers to benefit themselves! On the troop fundraiser each boy worked hard to benefit the troop!