ScoutNut

I am not in the CAC, but I am in a neighbouring council. It is nice that you are concerned about CAC and Owasippe. However it is not nice the way you are going about it.

"If you know the facts you will soon see that this council used to be one of the strongest in the nation."

Facts? What facts? You NEVER stated any facts.

"Now through shear ignorance they have so few scouting units that they cannot cover the cost of running this camp."

Ignorance? Ignorance of what? Also, nothing that I could find about this council says anything about the loss of Scouting Units being the reason they are considering closing the camp. What I could find says that the cost of necessary improvements to a 91 year old camp, coupled with the loss of money incurred each year by keeping the cost to the individual Scout affordable, and the decline in the USE of the camp are the reasons behind the decision.

"Only an immediate replacement of this Council President who has ignored recruitment for so many years can save one of the greatest Scout reservations in the nation."

So, according to you, if this man was replaced tomorrow, all problems at Owasippe would vanish? It would become instantly, financialy sound and there would no longer be a need to sell it?

Also, how do you know what this man has done or not done? How can you say what he has ignored? Are you a part of this council? Have you attended any of the council meetings? Do you even know this man that you are badmouthing?

"When you lose Chicago, the end is so very near. 8 Million people and we let it go?????"

Trust me, no one is "losing" Chicago. It is not going anywhere. On a clear day I can see it from my attic window!

"Our Council seems to be very distraught over the possible loss of CAC."

I thought we were talking about the possible sale of a Scout camp, not the disappearance of a council. I seriously doubt that the CAC will close up shop and disappear forever. I have not seen or heard anything, either from you, on the net, in my council, or in the local papers, to support that comment. And even if this event were to occur, Scouting would NOT stop in the city of Chicago. There would still be Packs, Troops, Crews, and scout meetings. They might have a different Council name on their shoulders, but they would still be there!

I have gone thru the loss of a Girl Scout Council. A loss that was, in part, due to financial mis-management. It was not fun, it was not easy. I did not see you there offering either help or threats to the Council staff or Board. I am still a Girl Scout. Scouting never stopped in the communities served by the council. It just changed. We did manage to save our beloved GS camp (without your help, I might add) but, our new Council had to sell one of their older camps just this year. They are not going bankrupt, they did not mis-manage funds, the number of Scouts is up. They just could not justify the cost of the upkeep that was needed. They looked at their needs and cut their losses. That's life.

As far as the loss of Owasippe goes, it is a shame. But, it sounds like what can be done is being done. Personally, I have never been there. However, I notice that you do not seem at all upset by the possible loss of Hoover, the other camp involved. Why is that I wonder? Not old enough to care about? Not important enough to scream and yell about? Well, my son and his BS Troop take the 5th grade Webelos to Hoover each January. They love the place. To me, that would be a much greater loss than that of Owasippe. If we do indeed loose the use of Hoover, it will make us all very sad. But, we will not stop camping. They will just have to find a new place to bring the Webelos each January.

If you are so very concerned, it would seem to me, that rather than spread rumors, insults, and explosive retoric, you could contact Mr. Joe Sener, Chair of the Owasippe Committee, of the Owasippe Staff Association, and offer to help with a contribution to the endowment fund.

I heard at Roundtable, that as of January 1, 2003, if you go on ANY trip outside of your regular meeting place, with the den OR pack, you MUST have a BALOO trained person along. This is NOT just for camping.

We asked questions and did not get a lot of clarification. I will continue to try to get someone to BALOO training (I would go, but my car is dead so I need to drag someone else along who can drive!). But, I will believe this, and other rumors, when I see a piece of paper from National!

Whoops, forgot to mention that we end up with a paper shopping bag FULL of info over and above the Pow Wow Book. Also we get to bring home all of the crafts and projects we have made.

James -

Why are scouts charged and leaders free at your Pow Wow? In our Council this is Cub Scout training for leaders only. If there are any Scouts there, they are usually just a few Boy Scouts who are helping the class presenters or on the midway.

Our Pow Wow is $25 until 2.5 weeks prior to the event. Then it goes up to $30. For that we receive a patch, Pow Wow Book, coffee, sweet rolls, and lunch. It is all day, from 8:30am until 3:15pm. We have a choice of 6 classes out of 26 offered plus a midway of various displays.

IMO it is a GREAT value. A wonderful, hands-on training experience where you can learn something new each year!

Now I understand why, from your first thread about your SM, you said that a Scout was eliminated from the Troop simply by not calling and telling him the camping dates! This group (I don't think I can call it a Troop) scares me. What you have here is a dictator as a SM, an obviously untrained and/or wimpy Committee and ASM's, a Troop Guide who has just crossed over from Webelos himself and NO regular or even publisized meetings. Unless you have some earth shattering reason to inflict this on your family, I would start looking at other Troops TODAY!!

BTW - I would contact your Unit and District Commissioner and let them know what is going on. I does not sound, to me, like your Charter Organization is honoring the terms of their charter!

If you plan on doing any fundraising with food you need to check with your local Health Department first. They usually have strict rules for handling food. We have to have someone present at all times who has been trained in foodservice. If not, we risk large fines and possible lawsuits.

Cubmom - Do I understand correctly, that you are the Treasurer for both your Pack and your Troop, and have only 1 account with the funds for both co-mingled? Whoops! If so, then headache's putting it mildly!

My Hubby & I do popcorn for both our Pack and Troop. We do NOT do CASH incentives. I would NEVER give product sale/fundraising profit to a child in cash.

The Troop allocates all of the profit (30% here) from a boys popcorn sales to that boy. Everything is still in the Troop bank account, but the Treasurer keeps track of how much belongs to each boy. I will give him a spreadsheet at the end of the sale showing how much popcorn each boy sold and the net profit due him. That way he can tell how much each boy owes him for the popcorn and how much he allocates to the boy in profit. This money can be used for Troop fees, event fees, summer camp, scout shop purchases, pretty much anything related to scouts.

The Pack, on the other hand, keeps all of the popcorn profit for Pack operating expenses. We do special incentives for our top sellers. The most popular is the top 10 sellers each get to toss a cream pie (whipped cream on a paper plate) at the Pack Leader of their choice!

The boys in both the Pack and the Troop ALSO receive the Trails-End incentive prizes or Council Scout Bucks for their sales level.

OK - I am confused. What, exactly, is a "founding" SM. If that means that he is simply the first SM this Troop has had, then that doesn't mean a darn thing. Who is your Charter Organization? Is your SM also your Charter Org Representative? Is he the Institutional Head of the Charter Org? Your Charter Org owns your Troop and these last 2 people, COR & IH, are the ones who have final say over the Troop leadership. NOT the SM! If your SM is indeed either the COR or IH, then that is a very bad situation and I would quickly look for a new Troop. If not, I would have a heart to heart talk with your COR about your questions.

Cubmom - No, the Pack is not part of the Troop. A Cub Scout Pack and a Boy Scout Troop are 2 entirely different programs. A Cub Scout Pack can graduate their Webelos into a Boy Scout Troop. Some Packs have 1 Troop that they regularly go to. Some Packs send their Webelos to many different Troops. Cub Scout Packs are for boys in the 1st-5th grades (7-10 years old). Boy Scout Troops are for boys 11-17 years old. The 2 programs (CS Packs & BS Troops), even if chartered by the same organization have different leaders, different Committees, different bank accounts. They MIGHT (not necessarily) share a Charter Organization Rep and a Unit Commissioner but that is it!

So yes, it is very possible (even probable) that the 2 different Committees would decide on 2 different ways to use the popcorn profit.

Why does your Pack create their own prize levels? Trail's End has a very nice prize program that is tiered based on sales. They even offer scholarship opportunities to boys selling $2,000+. If your council does not participate in the prize incentives maybe you could talk to the person in charge of their popcorn program and get them to participate next year.

(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

"The third member of our Committee is the SM's wife who he didn't need to go to training, she was just on the committee to meet the minimum requirements."

First of all, NOBODY should be on a Committee simply to meet the minimum requirements. If they are not there to do the job then you should find someone who will. Surely, out of all of the parents, you can find 1 who is willing to give up, at the very least, 1 evening a month?? If you can not find anyone then this woman should get trained. Having someone on the Committee in name only is doing a bid disservice to your Troop.

Secondly, Woodbadge is wonderful, but it is supplemental training. It does NOT replace NLE or job specific training. If you look at the requirements to wear the "Trained" patch it says you have to have completed the training specific to your position. Also, Cub Scout training does not mean anything in Boy Scouts. Your ASM's need to be trained for the Boy Scout level.

Maybe you could invite your District Commissioner to attend a Committee meeting and talk to them about training!

"We have to be careful though what some call God. Some may worship the dollar, but that is not God."

Alrighty then, if I followed your somewhat flawed logic, it is wrong if you are a Girl Scout to say "Dollar" and mean "God". But if you are a Boy Scout you MUST say "God" even if you mean "Dollar" because by saying "God" instead of "Dollar" it makes it OK. Unless, of course, you plan on doing a "Mind Meld" with everyone in the BSA who says the word "God" to find out what they REALLY mean!

As for me - I believe I will Praise Allah, not God, and bow down to Bast, but rename her God!!

This is getting W-A-A-A-A-Y to silly for me! I think that I shall simply agree to disagree with you.

May the "Great Spirit of Scouting" guide you - OOPS! Sorry, I guess that should have been "God" too!!

NUT

(Who's not nuts enough to continue THIS discussion!)

Our Units receive a profit of 30% from popcorn sales. We collect the total retail cost of the popcorn from our families and at booth (show & sell) sales. This is deposited in the Unit checking account. At the end of the sale, the Unit returns any unsold popcorn to Council along with a Unit check for only the amount due to Council (70%). This way we can start using our popcorn profit right away!

In my area both BSA and GSUSA product sales are like this. The only difference being GSUSA encourages you to use the personal checks you receive for product to pay the Council portion and keep the cash as your profit. This way if a check bounces the GS Council is responsible for collection, not you. Our BSA Council wants only a Unit check. Units are stuck if any checks bounce.

I think I would really resist handing over all of my Unit profit to the Council. The only point I can see in this (other than waiting for the Unit check to clear) is that the Council earns 2-3 months of interest on the money before giving it back to the Unit. Personally I would be HIGHLY tempted to sell minimal popcorn and then do our own fundraiser where we could keep ALL of the money we earn, including interest!! A Unit donation could then be given to FOS at the end of the year.(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

I have used both Eureka and Coleman. Of the 2 I do like the Eureka best. Has anyone tried the Unipen tents from tentonsale.com? They sound interesting and their price looks good.

ASM7 -

As I stated earlier, GSUSA has NOT lowered their standards. They simply choose not to force a girl to say that she will serve God when she does not believe in the Christian God. How would you feel if you were forced to swear to serve Budda, or Allah. This is not lowering of standards. This is common courtesy and religious freedom.

Our Council posts a copy on their website. If your council has a website I would check there. I bet you will find lots of interesting info! Otherwise your best bet is to stop by your Council offices.

TAINTING?? People who believe differently than you are "tainting" the BSA??? All righty then. I guess I must be "tainting" your version of BSA because I sure don't agree with you!

GSUSA has NOT lowered their ideals. Their ideals are the same as they have been since GSUSA was founded in 1912. They just are not the same as yours. Girl Scouting is for every girl, everywhere. NOT JUST those girls that believe the same as I do, or who agree with me, or who I feel are worthy.

Since it is obvious to me that you have NEVER been involved in the Girl Scout program, here is what our ideals are all about:

The Promise and Law provide the framework and ethical code for the Girl Scout program. The values expressed in the Promise and Law serve as the foundation for all activities in the Girl Scout program. Girl Scout membership is extended to all girls who accept the Girl Scout Promise and Law.

GIRL SCOUT PROMISE

On my honor I will try:

To serve God* and my country,

To help people at all times,

And to live by the Girl Scout Law.

GIRL SCOUT LAW

I will do my best to be

honest and fair,

friendly and helpful,

considerate and caring,

courageous and strong,

responsible for what I say and do,

and to

respect myself and others,

respect authority,

use resources wisely,

make the world a better place, and

be a sister to every Girl Scout.

Used thoughtfully and often in your everyday life, the Promise and Law can help you take action when you are faced with a decision. They can help you define or articulate the personal values that will give meaning and direction to your life.

*The word "God" has always been used to represent the spiritual foundation of the Girl Scout movement. Since Girl Scouting is for all girls, girls whose beliefs are expressed by a word or phrase other than "God" may substitute that for the word "God" when they say the Girl Scout Promise. When written, the word "God" is always in the Promise.

THESE are the ideals of GSUSA. I, for one, happen to agree with them!

Nut

Proud to be both a Girl Scout AND a Boy Scout!!

d_seibold :

You stated that GSUSA didn't want a church involved in their program. I do not understand that. My church/school has the most GS Troops of any other school (or church) in my Service Unit. How "involved" did your church want to be? As you mentioned GSUSA does not issue charters. Your church would not be able to "own" its Girl Scout Troops, your local GS council does. This does NOT mean your church can not have GS Troops. All it takes is to have girls who want to join and adults who are willing to be Leaders! If you have both of those things, then you contact your local GS council and tell them you want to start a Troop or Troops. Simple!

The only problem I can see is if your church wanted to restrict the troops membership or did not want to follow GSUSA policy. Otherwise, there are a great many churchs out there with GS Troops!

I have been involved with Girl Scouts for almost 10 years now. They have a fine program. Like BSA, there can be issues with Council/National politics. Also, like BSA, the program is only as good as the volunteers who run it! Most of the girls I know in GS love it. If they don't, they leave. Just as the boys do in BSA. Like BSA, GSUSA has some retention problems with the older youth. BSA created Venturing Crews to help with the problem. This October, GSUSA is unveiling its New Directions program to adress this problem. Both BSA and GSUSA are wonderful programs for our youth. If I didn't believe that I would not be involved in both programs.

Martial Arts have been ok'd for Boy Scouts and Venturing with the proper supervision. They are NOT approved for the Cub Scout level.

BTW - The new belt loops and pins are now in some scout shops. However, the requirements are not in yet.

Sdriddle - I would have a talk to your District Scoutfitter about stocking the correct uniforms! You can order Tiger uniforms from the National Distributor on-line:

http://www.scoutstuff.org/

You might also try local garage sales and putting a note in your local paper asking for donations of gently used uniforms!

Our Tigers have always loved the orange shirt. It makes them feel so special. Then, as the year goes on, they start to look forward to the blue uniform and receiving their Bobcat! When they are in the "Cub Scout Blue" they then have Webelos to look forward to, with all of the new challenges that brings. Once in Webelos, especially 5th grade, many boys go into the tan uniform because they simply can't wait to start looking like a "real Boy Scout"! It's progression, and it's what (hopefully) keeps them coming back!

How about using a percentage of the actual profit each boy earned? You will have to keep track of each boys popcorn sales, but then how much they earn is entirely up to them. If they do not sell any popcorn they get $0, if they sell $1,000 @ 30% profit and you allocate 5% for their Scout Account, then they get $15.

Simple and fair.

To put to rest the Tiger uniform rumors for another year, here is a copy of a post, on a different forum, from a Scouter who just returned from the Philmont Training Center:

"I specifically asked a detailed series of questions of National reps during our Thursday "Fireside Chat" about whether the rumors about Tigers in blue uniforms was myth or reality.

The panelists in question were Bill Steele, Associate National Director of Cub Scouting, Diane Cannon, Program Committee Chairman, National Cub Scout Committee, and Jim Head, Scout Executive for Pee Dee Area Council, South Carolina.

Here is their summarized response:

The rumor about blue shirts for Tigers is just that, a rumor. This was confirmed by contacting the National office. There is no test market for blue shirts, also confirmed by contacting National.

There are no plans to test market blue shirts, also confirmed by contacting National. A few years back, a survey was made of leaders and parents to investigate the possibility of moving to blue shirts for Tigers, and the response was

overwhelmingly against it. At the same time, rumor surfaced about the contract for the manufacture of the orange shirts coming to an end and not being renewed. They seem to think that this is where the whole idea started.

In no uncertain terms, there are no plans or even thoughts of putting Tigers in the blue shirts."

Somehow this rumor gets started every year about this time. I hope this clears things up, for another year at least!!

Nut

National just started a brand new Tiger program last year. This program includes a belt totem (no pocket on t-shirt) with a place on the back for the Tiger rank badge to be displayed. It also includes a Tiger Cub Handbook. Featured prominently throughout this brand new handbook (including on the cover) are pictures of Tiger Cubs in their uniform. Their ORANGE uniform. On page 11 of the brand new Tiger Cub Handbook is a description of the OFFICIAL Tiger Cub uniform. Yup, it says: "The uniform for the Tiger Cub is the official Tiger Cub orange T-shirt with the Tiger Cub emblem on the front. The official Tiger Cub cap and blue web belt with a Tiger Cub buckle are optional." If you look in this years BSA catalog you will also see this listed as the official Tiger Cub uniform. Nowhere does it say that the blue uniform is even optional for Tiger Cubs.

With all of the time and money that National has spent on the new Tiger Cub program and its materials, I can't see them changing it any time soon.

ASM1 -

"Your response, "You first need to realize that unless you represent an organization capable of chartering a troop you cannot start a unit." This is just not true. How could it be true? Our troop is CO'ed by the American Legion, that troop was started without any member of the legion being a member of the troop."

Bob White is perfectly correct. For a unit to be be chartered it is NOT necessary to have members of the CO be members of the unit beyond just a COR. What Bob White is saying is that YOU, personally, can not charter a unit. Units are chartered by an organization of some sort, not by one person. That organization then owns the unit and is responsible for finding volunteers, providing meeting space, etc.

If you know of another another organization that might be interested in chartering a BSA Unit, I would talk to your District Executive. He will be able to get you the information you need.

Girl Scouts, like Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts or Venturers, are only as strong as their leaders and councils. Again, like in all other organizations, training goes a long way towards helping to fix problems.

If girls are not joining your Crew until AFTER they earn their Gold, then it is not necessarily because of lack of a Girl Scout program. Many girls wait until they are in 11th, sometimes 12th grade to finish earning their Gold Award. Girl Scouts, like Boy Scouts, ends when you reach 18 years of age or finish HS. After that, joining a Venture Crew is their only option, as you can be a youth member until you are 21.

GSUSA is now starting to focus on recruiting and holding older girls. BTW, BSA is now also pushing for more active recruiting of older boys who have never been in Scouts!

Here are a few sites that might be helpful:

http://www.netwoods.com/document2/patrol%20bx.htm

http://comp.uark.edu/~rohughes/142box.html

This is a retail site but it has a lot of ideas you might be able to incorporate:

http://www.blueskykitchen.com/

Personally I use those big rubbermaid (or similar) boxes. They hold everything and are a lot lighter .(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)