ScoutNut

No one (boys or adults) wears their scout uniform to our Troop's PLC's. They are held at the SM's house. Uniforms are also not worn to committee meetings (Pack or Troop).

We drill thru the boards and make a larger hold on the bottom to countersink the knot. The kids just stand on the boards and hold the ropes (knoted at various places for hand grips for different height kids). We do NOT do toe holds of any kind, too dangerous. This way if a kid falls off it is only that kid and you don't have the whole board flipping up, dumping and smacking kids as it goes. It works just fine with no toe holds. There has to be maybe a tad more coordination and teamwork involved but that is the point after all!

"One dad (the winnerlast 3 years running) videotaped races to dispute unfavorable race results. (I think he cheated and paid someone to build a car for him -way too professional for kid work -recommendations accepted here on what too look for in terms of cheaters)"

Can we talk obsessed here! The first thing to look for is dad's who videotape finish lines! It sounds to me like you need to get away from "fastest finish times" and back to "having fun".

We don't have any fancy laser gates, finish line timers, pc interfaces or computer software. Our timers are quite simple, sometimes possibly incorrect, and we would not change them if we were offered the most expensive, high tech stuff out there. Our timers are 2 Assistant Scoutmasters from our Boy Scout Troop! They get down on their hands & knees (with the boys who are racing right down there with them) and they call 1st, 2nd & 3rd for each race. This is one of the ONLY times our Cubs get to interact with adults from the BS Troop. The boys love to see them and the ASM's love to do it. We have never, ever, had a parent or boy contest a decision made by an ASM!

This might be the last year for our track as well. It is wood, 3-lane, built, I believe, as an Eagle project many, many, many years ago! It is starting to show it's age and we usually have to repair it each year before we can use it. We have had a dad offer to build us a new one and we just might take him up on it. The new one will probably be wood also but we would really like something that takes less space to store than our present one!

We stopped double elimination about 6 years ago and will never go that route again. It creates to many bad feelings, sad kids, and boys with nothing to do but go home (or run around) because they have been eliminated from the race. We found a program on the web (I can't remember where but I think it has been mentioned on this forum before) that once you input your lanes, number of racers, and time, it will gererate a spreadsheet showing who races who so that every boy races every other boy and on each lane. It might take a little longer because we race ALL of the boys each heat. But the boys stay involved and HAVE FUN! Sure they want to win. We keep track and the final race is between the 3 cars with the most wins. But we want them to have fun and not focus on how fast their car is.

I believe that refers to uniforms only. Not to obsolete patches that have been recreated and passed off as current and official. If you happen to still have an old uniform around (like the collarless one pictured in this months Scouting mag) and wish to wear it you would still be considered to be in official uniform, old patches and all. But if you decided that you liked the look better with no collar so you went out and had your own shirt made the way you wanted it, you could call it a reproduction but it would NOT be official.

The "once official uniform, always official uniform" policy is mainly for those times when the uniform changes. This enables the scouts and scouters to still be considered in official uniform without having to run out to the nearest scout shop and purchase a brand new uniform or uniform part.

We are getting some snow here outside of Chicago. OK, OK, it's really kind of like few and far between snow drizzle. But it is white and solid! Looks like a green Christmas this year!

Happy Holidays to all!!

"*Red City and State arches (shown on the uniform sheet above the council patch)"

What uniform sheet are you refering to? I have never seen these on any uniform sheet. Here is a link to an excerpt from the Insignia Guide for Boy Scout Insigna:

http://ftp.ev1.net/~mwatson/unit/files/insignia/insignia_bs.pdf

This is the Boy Scout uniform inspection sheet from the BSA National website:

http://www.scoutstuff.org/misc/isheets/34283.pdf

These show what BSA offically allows on the Boy Scout uniform. Any other patches, including city/state patches, are unofficial and should be worn as temporary insignia or worn on a patch jacket/blanket/etc, and not on the uniform.

The silver knot on purple background can be worn by any youth OR adult who has earned the religious award of their faith AS A YOUTH. The BSA does not specify program, only that it must have been earned while a youth. This also goes for adult Scouters, weather they are male OR female.

The purple knot on silver background is worn by an adult who earned his religious award as an adult.

Check your current issue of the BSA Insignia Guide.

The easiest way to find a record of changes within a council's jurisdiction would be to call the council and ask them. The easiest way to find out about councils nationwide would be to contact GSUSA National. They have contact info on their website.

SCMOM-

My point was that easy or not, according to your take on not adding to requirements, picture taking should not be allowed either.

Personaly I do NOT feel it is adding to requirements to have the boys tell you, in some form or another, how they completed the things they want you to give them credit for. My Webelos parents were great and I would have had no problem believing them. But I felt it was necessary for the BOY to be able to tell what he did. The "journal" did not have to be a 10 page research paper or even a 5 paragraph essay. It could have been a few notes jotted down on a piece of paper or even right in his Webelos book. If you have a boy in 4th or 5th grade who can not write then you have a special needs child who should be dealt with as such. If my boys could remember well enough without any notes, then I let them just tell me about what they did. Pictures, visual aids, whatever the boys brought in worked for me. It is important for the boys to know what they did to earn an award. It makes them very proud of themselves to know all of the things they accomplished to earn it.

I never had tons of activity badges earned independently, but we did have a few. One boy worked on one of the outdoor badges during the summer between 4th and 5th grade. He got a big kick out of telling the den all about it in the Fall. I had 1 or 2 others who did some work on their own also.

Sctmom - Then the same reasoning would apply to having someone take a picture of them doing things. You are adding a requirement. The same would apply to them telling you what they have done. If it does not say "tell" or "show" in the requirement then you cannot "add" that to the requirements.

How then do you approve things that your boys have done on their own? Do you just take their word for it? Or the word of their parents? Or do you not allow them to do any independent activities other than the ones that SPECIFICALLY say they must be done with their families?

How about talking to one of your Bear parents about B & G? As ADL you should know them pretty well by now. Let them know that they will not be on their own and they can put the arm on any other parents they want to help!

Talk to your other den leaders and find out if any of their parents seem like good prospects. Announcing at a Pack meeting that you need volunteers for such & such rarely works. People assume that someone else will volunteer so they do not bother. It works much better to ask an individual. Don't give them a choice of positions either. Ask them to help with 1 specific thing. I have found that if you can get them hooked for 1 thing they are usually hooked for good!

One other thing, look for people who already volunteer in some other aspect of their childs life. Once that hand starts going up it is often hard to sit on it again! Just look at you!! LOL!!

For activity ideas -

Check out local Nature Centers and State and County park systems. Many have programs for scouts or are willing to put together a customized program for your scouts if you give them the requirements. Local museums also might have programs for scouts or youths. Colleges and High Schools are another place to check out for help or programs. Home improvement stores like Home Depot have woodworking classes for youths. Craft stores also have classes your boys can take.

But first of all, you should find out what skills your parents have that they can share with the boys. Parents who either are in a profession or just have an interest/expertise in certain areas can be wonderful advisors.

Having the boys write up what they did is not adding to the requirements any more than having them take a picture of what they are doing is. If you are going to allow the boys to work on requirements on their own you have to have some means of verifing what they did. I have found that writing it down keeps it fresh in their minds. Then they are able to show their leader without a lot of "Gee I'm not sure what I did but I know I did it because my dad signed it off for me" stuff.

The boys notes and any things he has made for the requirements can then be displayed at the Pack meeting. His notes can also be kept in a scrapbook of his Webelos years if he has one.

What we did in Webelos (and also with our Girl Scouts) was that for any badges/requirements that were completed at home or on their own, the scout had to write up what was done, how it was done and where it was done. They then brought in their journal, and anything else related, to the next meeting (or the meeting designated for "homework"). The leader then went over what was done and either signed off on it or returned it with suggestions. This works well, especially if you have 1 leader who is JUST checking off "homework" and 1 who is working with the scouts on current stuff.

The boys should be starting to work independantly, but the leader has the final approval. Maybe you should consider having a parents meeting and laying out the new rules to both the boys and their parents. Webelos is a big change from what they have been used to!

OK, first off, the Tiger Totem is EXTREAMLY easy to earn. It is made that way on purpose. The Tiger only has to know 3 things, 1)the Tiger motto, 2)the Cub Scout Sign and 3)the Cub Scout Salute. This can be done in ONE meeting!! I would have a talk to your Tiger Leader and make sure they are on top of what the boys are doing.

I just got a brand new Tiger at my last meeting, on Saturday. On Tuesday, at our Pack meeting, he and his parents were up on stage to receive his Totem and be welcomed into the Pack. You should have seen this little guy up there proudly stating the Tiger motto and showing the Pack the Sign and Salute. This is after being a Tiger for a total of 4 days! I know that my Tigers and their folks are G-R-R-R-R-E-A-T but remember, this is not rocket science. Unless your Pack meeting was the first time this boy had attended ANY scout function, including den meetings, there is no reason why he was not ready.

As for dues - We have all run into these people a time or two in our Scouting career. If your Pack can not afford to waive their dues then I would suggest that you let them know that they will be on the "pay as you go" plan. Be polite but firm. With a brand new Pack you can not afford to cover missing dues. Let them know that if they can not pay dues they will be expected to either do some alternative fundraising or pay out of pocket for the things the dues would cover. I would bet they come up with at least a portion of the dues!

Bonnie - Nut

Been there, done that with ALL kinds of parents!

From all of the replies it looks like the problem can be caused by BOTH Packs and Troops! And I believe that National's concept of keeping Cub Scouts and Boy Scout events totally separate has not helped. I know that they are trying to create a aura of mystery and anticipation around Boy Scouting for the Cubs. But what has happened is that your average Cub Scout has no clue about Boy Scouts and does not feel any connection to them!!

In my area, the Troops do not seem to be in regular contact with the Packs. They seem to have the we're here if you want us mentality. Likewise the Packs do not regularly contact the Troops, aside from Webelos, either. I am sure that both might feel unwelcomed by the other when the real problem might just be communication!

In my Pack, we have ASM's judge our PWD every year. We also invite all of our Troop's leadership to B&G each year. Usually they do not come. Our SM seems to want as little to do with Cubs as possible. For the last 3 years he has not even shown up at the crossover ceremony! The year before last no one from the Troop showed up at all. Our Unit Commissioner was nice enough to welcome the boys into the Troop. Last year one of the ASM's was there. The Cubs usually only see the Boys at Thanksgiving mass and at Scout Sunday.

Den Chiefs. From what I've seen, our SM MIGHT ask the Troop at the first meeting if anyone is interested. It all depends on if one of the boys has expressed intrest first. He definately does NOT push it. The Pack leaders, as a rule, do not know about Den Chiefs. As was stated, this is a TROOP position and is usually only mentioned in passing in Cub Scout literature and at Cub Scout training. My Pack has 2 Den Chiefs only because I noticed the training listed on our Council website. I asked my son if he would be interested and he proceded to pay for the training himself! He then convinced his classmate, who was helping his mom with his little brother's den anyway, to take the training also. The Cubs love them!

So, I feel that there is enough "blame" for not retaining Webelos to go around to everybody! Get the Cubs and the Troops together more often for more stuff. All levels. Part of the Boys leadership can be running Cub events! The Cubs need to see the Boys. The Cubs need to get to know the Boys. The Cubs need to want to BE the Boys!! You notice I have been saying Cubs NOT JUST Webelos. This needs to be an ongoing process. Not something that only starts in 4th or 5th grade!

Just my $.02!

Sctmom is correct - in order to take your GS troop camping you are required to have at least 1 leader who has gone thru camping training to your level and a separate leader who is first aid trained.

The GS camping training comes in various levels. You have basic to lodge to tent. With various levels in between depending what your council requires. GS does progression in camping just like they do in everything else. Daisies (K) are not allowed to stay overnight at all. Younger Brownies (1-3 grd) are allowed to overnight in lodges only. As they get older and more expierenced they eventually go to tent camping and on to high adventure. Likewise the leaders should go thru all levels of outdoor training.

I have found, during my 10 years as a leader, that the training in my councils has been very good. Remember, your training is only as good as your trainer. Also, since there only has to be 1 leader outdoor trained, there will be leaders there who are not outdoor trained at all. And, as Sctmom said, there will always be some leaders who think the rules are not for them.

I think the key is not MORE training but perhaps BETTER training and better supervision of those that are un-trained.

"The Cub Masters son has his Bobcat, Wolf, Bear and Webelo patch all inside a huge diamond shaped plastic sleeve hanging from his pocket button instead of sewn on."

Actually The patch holders are very handy for people who don't like or don't know how to sew. There are also square and round temporary patch holders. They are sold by the BSA in your local Scout Shop. We have always given our boys wearing these passing grades on uniform inspection.

How about a Snowball relay? You need a bag of cotton balls and a plastic serving spoon (or go smaller to make it harder or last longer) per group. The cotton balls are dumped on the floor in front of each group. The first person (involve parents and siblings too!) "shovels" up a spoonfull of "snowballs", runs over to a bucket, dumps his snow and runs back. If they drop the snow on the way they have to stop and pick it up. The group who finishes shoveling first wins!

I would hazard to guess that these moms are a pain to the leaders of their girl's scout troop also! People with this kind of attitude tend to spread it around good!

If their girls are younger than the boys that could put them from Kindergarten to 5th grade. Big difference in responsibilites in that group. If the girls are Brownies (1-3rd grd) they are more adult led. The girls should be given a voice in their troop but the final decision is the leaders. When they get into Juniors (4-5th grd) they should be getting more independent, making more of their own decisions, and learning more leadership skills. The troops are still mainly adult led but the girls should be making more and more of the troop decisions.

If the girls are older than the boys that would put them from 7 th to 12 th grade. Cadettes (7-8th grade) are offically considered part of the "older girl" group. They should be working pretty much independently by now. At this point the leaders should be starting to hand over total control of the troop to the girls. By the time girls reach high school they should be running their own troop. They make all decisions about what they do and work on things both independently and as a group. Their leaders are there as advisors and to help make what the girls want happen.

That all said, a Girl Scout Troop is not set up like a Boy Scout Troop. As a rule a troop is only 1 level, grade or age. There are multi level/age groups, but I do not think they are the majority. You would probably be closer to the mark to think of a GS troop like a patrol. Most GS troops do not have troop equipment. They borrow from their council or use their own individual equipment. They also do not necessarialy use a patrol type of government. That is an option, but unless the troop is large enough to be split into at least 2 patrols it is usually easier to use some other form of government. The type my troop has always favored is the "town hall" type. Decisions are made as a group. With various different options and possibilites discussed. They then either come to a general agreement or they take a vote.

As you can see - Same but diffferent. Also girls yelling at one another is NOT condoned. There are better ways to get your point across, and part of our job as leaders is to teach them what those are. Girl Scouts are taught, amoung other things, to "be a sister to every scout", to "leave a place (thing) better than you found it", and to "be responsible for everything you say and do". This also means that a girl, if given a wet, muddy tent to clean, would be expected to bring back that tent dry and, if possible, cleaner than it was when it started the trip! And to those moms who gave their sons permission to hit anyone who yelled at them, that also would NOT be condoned in Girl Scouts!

Your mom's need to "get a life". Your Scouts need to shape up and start to act like scouts. And, finally, your Patrol Leader needs some more training!

My council does not charge insurance fees either.

I feel the increase to $10 isn't a bad deal considering it has held the same for so long. I found out about the increase in late Spring or early Summer. My council had a notice on their website and I did read about it on a Scouting forum. My council also included notification and a spreadsheet for pro-rating the new cost in our August unit start-up packets.

In my Pack and Troop the ones to be hit with the increase will be the brand new members next year and our Charter Org. Our Charter Organization pays for all re-charter expenses. Adult and boy members only need to pay the national registration fee once in their scouting career. Our Charter Org picks it up after that, so we really have no cause to complain at all!

P.S. For those of you with ties to GSUSA, they are voting this month, at their National Convention, on weather or not to increase their national registration fee to $10 a year also!

Not knowing exactly what event, activity, etc, they are comparing to Girl Scouts it is hard to compare and contrast.

Girl Scouts, Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, while all scouting programs, are definately NOT alike. There are many similarities but also many differences in their approach to building a better person thru scouting. I have often told new GS & CS leaders (both men & women) who have had experience with the opposite program not to look at one program from the point of view of the other. Looking thru GS, CS or BS colored glasses can drive you NUTS when trying to comprehend one of the other programs.

Bottom line - When the folks complain that that's not the way that Girl Scouts does it, just respond with - that's right, because this is Boy Scouts NOT Girl Scouts! They are 2 DIFFFERENT programs!

Maybe you could suggest they take Boy Scout training so that they can learn how the BSA programs work!

Nut

GS Leader for 10 years

CS/BS Leader for 8 years

How old are your girls? How long and how far away is the trip? Are any parents going?

I have never used contracts but I have heard of troops that did. Mostly they were for younger girls. They spelled out what the expected behavior was and the consequences for not following the rules. Both parents and scout signed the contract.

Nut

My Pack presented the cords to their 2 Den Chiefs in a nice ceremony during the Pack meeting nearest the date each boy started working with the Pack. I believe that their SM presented them with the position patch at a COA. This year the Pack will present both boys their Den Chief Service Award cord at the Blue & Gold dinner.

The boys paid for their Den Chief training. The Pack has paid for the cords and the Troop paid for the position patches.

ASM1 -

Re-reading the posts I did not find one that said you were "Nosey" or told you to "mind your own business." What I did find were people, involved in their OWN scouting communities, who simply asked what the heck you thought THEY could do that would influence a council that was, in many instances, across the country from them! You responded in the following manner :

"This forum has lost my respect."

"If you ignore this, you do not deserve to be in Scouting."

"I am sorry for you."

"You folks are a joke."

Wonderful responses. How scout-like, insightful and above all HELPFUL!

The ONLY course of action that you have recomended is the following:

"Only an immediate replacement of this Council President who has ignored recruitment for so many years can save one of the greatest Scout reservations in the nation. This man has got to go." "Please write letters asking for his removal to save this reservation."

This we are supposed to do why? Because YOU said to? Because you were a Scout and Scouter in CAC? Because you will write mean things about us if we don't? I do NOT think so!

You have offered no VERIFIABLE facts to back up this request. I am NOT about to put my name on any document asking for a person to be fired from his job when I know ZIPPO about the situation. Hearsay does NOT count!

You asked me the following :

"And ScoutNut, tell me, why do you think contributing money to Owasippe will fix the problem if there are no scouts to attend?"

Actually the little I read about the plan sounds interesting. Joe Sener, Owasipp Committee Chair states :

"In my conversation with the Executive Board, I proposed that we, the Chicago Area Council, raise funds for an endowment to cover the annual loss from operations as well as the infrastructure improvement costs and that we develop an off-season use plan that utilizes Owasippe far more than the current six-week season. This off-season use will generate additional revenue and provide an outdoor education experience for the youth of Western Michigan."

He realizes that the camp will probably continue to lose money and that it needs extensive repairs. This is what the endowment is ment to cover. He also seems to realize that the endowment alone will not be enough. That is why he is proposing the camp be utilized year-round and opened to all of the youth of Michigan. If they can increase "customers" to the camp, possibly at increased prices, this will do a lot to offset the deficit caused by offering a low cost camping experience to Scouts. I wish him well. This effort will take a lot of work on his part.

Unfortunatly, I doubt it will save the other camp in question. Hoover Outdoor Eduction Center is the camp that concerns Eagle90 (waving wildly to fellow VT Scouter!) and myself. We actually USE this camp and I wish that there was a way for us to help keep it open. Unfortunatly I do not know of any.

If you have anything CONCRETE to tell us about this situation, we would like to hear it. If you have any PRACTICAL ideas of ways we might help, we are all ears. But please, stop all of the jumping up and down and shouting at us. It does no one any good.

BTW - the REAL scouting movement is NOT the Chicago Area Council. It is in the heart of every boy (or girl) who puts on a orange, blue, tan or green shirt. Or who wishes they could. No matter where they live. THAT movement NONE of us are ignoring!!