ScoutNut

How would you get the cake or bread out of the mason jar? Seems like you would have to just spoon it out in lumps.

Actually you could recruit from the Cadette level also for your Crew. Cadettes can be as old as 14 years or in 9th grade. Many girls stay a Cadette in 9th grade so that they can finish up their Silver Award (2nd highest award, also very difficult with many pre-reqs, much service, much leadership, and a 30 hour project).

Please don't judge the Girl Scout program based on your knowledge of the Boy Scout program only. They are 2 entirely different programs. And I would caution you against sharing your comparisions with your prospective GS recruits. You might get more than you bargained for, but not the recruits!

From what you have said this is not the only boy to garner the SM's wrath by dropping out. It also sounds like you will be having at LEAST 1 more boy "drop out" because he was never really in. It sounds to me like this SM was planning his own vacation from the very first and using the boys in the Crew to get it. Shame on him!

Yes, you have a mess alright. The mess is the SM! Talk to him immediately and let him know that unless he stops verbaly abusing this scout (and any others who decide not to go on his vacation) that you will report him to your Council Scout Executive per the procedures laid down in BSA Youth Protection.

After you get him muzzled, have a meeting with the remaining boys and their parents and get in writing a commitment to go on the trek. You might be down to just the 4 adults and 1 or 2 boys at this point. Now, however, you should have an idea of how many boys you need to recruit for the trip. Put out flyers at council. Visit roundtables for all districts. Provide fundraising opportunities for any boy interested.

If after all of this you can not fill the needed slots, then the Crew should eat the difference in cost. The boy with the divorced parents who dropped out should get a complete refund because he and his parents neither gave permission for, or had any idea that the money was being deducted from his account.

What this SM did with this trip is horrible! If he was so desperate to get to Philmont he could have gone on his own! Scouters take their entire families there every year. Granted it's not for a high adventure backcountry trek, but it sure sounds like this SM could benefit from some of the training courses offered there!

Wow, that school sure is pretty full of itself. Our Catholic Church/School also has it's own Pack, Troop and Girl Scout Troops. The Pack and Girl Scouts tend to be 99% (we do have some homeschooled and "publics") from the grammer school just because it's easier for the parents, but our Webelos Scouts are encouraged to check out all of the surrounding Boy Scout Troops. Boy, if we ever told them that if they went to the school they had to be in our Troop we would get laughed out of town!

I just don't see why the parents didn't just say no. What did the school say they would do to them? Kick them out of the school? Out of the church? Out of Scouts? Good grief! Did they make them pay another $10 registration fee? Sounds like a scam to me!

Linda - I have never heard of that kind of salute and can't find it in any of the literature we have around here. Course, the stuff I could find is not all that old either. Your best bet might be to contact the National Scouting Museum:

National Scouting Museum

Boy Scouts of America, S505

1329 West Walnut Hill Lane

Irving, TX 75038

800-303-3047

972-580-2100

e-mail: nsmuseum@netbsa.org

They have a historical collection and might be able to find a reference for you.

Let us know what you find!

How can you not know if the boys are officially transfered? Did they fill out transfer paperwork, or did they just disappear from your troop and reappear in the other troop? If there is a question of which troop they are actually registered with you should contact your Council Registrar.

As for the money, officialy, any money earned by the troop belongs to your Charter Organization. Also everything owned by the troop is actually owned by your CO. Your council will not get involved. Because your unit bylaws state that if a scout leaves the troop, they forfit all money in their scout account, I would not just go cutting a check, and I would most certainly NOT cut a check to the boys themselves. You need to get your COR and your Treasurer together and decide what you are going to do. Do not do anything without your COR's (or IH) approval (in writting hopefully). Let the CC at the new troop know that you have to go thru channels and they will just have to wait. Also let him know that if a fundraising permit of yours is canceled by him you will be forced to contact council. Threats, even veiled, are totally unacceptable!

Twocubdad is right, I would cancel the campout. Then I would explain exactly WHY it was cancled to the girls. Do some cooporative, team building games with your group. Let them know that if things don't improve they will not be doing a whole lot of activities.

A code of conduct, put together by the girls, is a good idea. I would also have the parents sign and return a copy to you so you know they read and understand them. If the girls are not doing much towards running the troop that could be a problem too. 6th graders are able to take on more responsibility for their own troop. Make sure they do.

Finally, your biggest problem could be mostly hormonal. 6th grade is a time of change for girls. Some get EXTREMELY weird and confrontational! You need to hang in there and make sure rules are enforced. This should pass, eventually. Just think how proud you will be in 3 or 4 years when they are in high school and all of the leadership and confidence starts to shine thru!

All of your achievement beads can be given out at den meetings. That is why they are called instant recognitions. If you are in a permanent time crunch you could also give out any participation patches in the dens. I would award belt loops and pins at the pack meeting along with the ranks and any special awards.

If you award all recognitions at pack, I don't see how any boy could go months on end without receiving anything unless the dens are not meeting or they are just sitting around a table for an hour! If you decide to hand out awards in the dens, I would make sure to bring each den up in front at pack and let everyone know what they have been doing/earning.

We do our recognitions during the pack meeting. They take up the first part of the meeting. Then comes our major meeting event with any announcements bringing up the end during snack time. We usually average, for a normal meeting, 1-1.5hr meetings. The biggies like Pinewood and when there is a meal involved can be longer, but they are always on a weekend night. Actually Pinewood Derby day is the only pack meeting with no awards except those for the Pinewood.

Are your current scouts still holding den meetings? If so, forget the roundup for them. Have their den leaders take applications to the den meetings with them and have the parents sign their sons up when they come to collect them after the meeting (or do it before the meeting gets started, but sometimes it's harder to get the parents to actually come in when they are dropping off the boys).

Another roundup is a good idea. Or even a roundup for each school. For next year make sure you have someone at every school registration day. If the school will not let you set up inside, try for a booth outside by the front door.

You mentioned 2 things that puzzled me:

1)"our current families really don't know what Cubs is."

How can this be? Families were in Cub Scouting for at least 1 full year and still have no idea what it is??? Didn't the boys have handbooks? The handbooks do a real good job of describing Cub Scouts. Did they earn their rank? If the families do not have a clue what Cub Scouts is all about, what about the boys? How can you bridge Webelos to Scouts if they don't know what the organization they belong to is about??? I'm confused!

2)"Last year the pack meetings didn't feature the Cubs at all."

Confused again! What the heck did your pack meetings feature?? Weren't the boys given any recognition in front of their peers? Were your pack meetings just announcement/fundraising sessions? This could be the BIG reason no one wants to come back this year!

At any new roundups, and anytime you talk to current scouts, I would highly stress the positive changes you have made to your Cub Scout program. Also, make sure that your roundups are FUN! Search your fingers to the bone on the internet and find the absolutly SILLIEST songs, games and activities. The sillier the better. It sure sounds like you guys have a rep as a boring, bad program pack. You need to turn that image around FAST!

OK Pro : Only 1 meeting per month

Con : Since the odds of each committee member having a child in each unit are extremely remote, you have people running units who have no real vested interest in them other than that they are scouting. Not that this is always a bad thing, but you need to let the people in the unit work with the unit. Involvement of the families is key in any scouting program. You can't have that if you only have 1 master group running everything.

Anne - I am simply saying that you should make yourself clear. People are replying to you assuming you are asking in your capacity as a Scoutmaster. You might receive different advise if people were clear on what you are trying to do.

I am not bashing large, multi-age, Girl Scout Groups. I think they can work quite well given the proper leadership and enough adult help. I also see nothing wrong with small Girl Scout Troops, wheather multi-age or single age. Once again, these can work well also, given the proper leadership.

It seems that you are a big fan of the patrol method. That is fine, It can work very well for the girls. Unfortunately it also seems that you are running down any other type of government in a Girl Scsout Troop. My girls tried patrols, but always preferred the "Town Hall" type of government. They have done quite well with this also. They have all developed into confident, caring, strong, independent young women who are leaders in their schools and community. They have earned their Program Aid, various leadership awards , the GS Silver and are currently finishing their GS Gold (which is the highest award a GS can earn, similar to the BS Eagle). The patrol method is not a magic bullet for all that is wrong with Girl Scouting. There are many Boy Scout Troops out there who use the patrol method and still are not boy run. Again, it all comes down to proper leadership, no matter what scouting program you are in.

I wish you and your Group well. Inner city Troops can be a challenge.

Oh - BTW, being a member of BSA, I never considered myself one of the "Dark Side" before.

Anne -

I think that you should make it clear that while everyone else is talking Boy Scout Troops you are talking Girl Scout Troop.

Actually Girl Scout Group from 4th thru 7th grade. Girl Scouts are very different from Boy Scouts and you can not really run a Girl Scout Troop/Group like you would a Boy Scout Troop. Even if you do form them into patrols. The dynamics are very different and the number and jobs of adults affiliated is very different.

Have you asked your girls how they would like their Troop set up? Patrols is not the only form of Troop government available to them. A Boy Scout Troop pretty much has no choice. The patrol method IS the BSA way. In Girl Scouts, especially when you get to the Cadette age, you need to let the girls decide how they want to run their Troop and not make the decisions for them.

"Leaders are proscribed from having direct involvement with the Religious Award programs in their Leader capacity."

Not necessarily true. Leaders can and should tell their girls about the religious awards program. They should also help their girls find information if they are interested. But the religious awards programs are NOT Scout programs. They are organized and run by the individual religious organizations to encourage spiritual growth in their youth members. BSA and GSUSA recognizes these programs, but they do NOT run them or teach them.

Most of the programs should be mentored by either a member of the religion or a member of the girls family. In most cases the GS Troop Leader is not qualified to mentor the various programs. The most they can do is to make the information available to the girls and their families. I know I wouldn't feel either qualified or comfortable trying to mentor a Buddhist religious award!

Hi There! We have other boys here too! Tell us about Scouting by you!(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

Officially, a GS Gold Award Project should touch the community beyond Girl Scouting. From GSUSA national: "The whole idea of the Girl Scout Gold Award is that you do something to benefit your community and learn those skills that make you a citizen of your community and the world."

Unfortunatly, some GS councils, like some BS councils, allow some questionable projects to be done.

Jamie, yours sounds interesting. How are you going to be putting this together, a booklet, video, website, etc? Who, & how, will you be distributing this to. If you do some searches online you will find tons of stuff on various scouting and camping sites!

" Factor two were the sites themselves, most of them were very rocky -- many large rocks. Everybody had to be pretty careful not to get hurt."

And you keep going back there? No wonder you don't get the younger kids or moms. When you are planning a Cub Scout Family Camp you have to plan for the whole family. Not just for the dad and Cub. If you make the location and the activities unappealing for the younger sibs then guess who has to stay home with them next time. If you guessed dad I bet in about 90% of the cases you would be wrong! This does not mean that mom or little kids don't want to go. It means that the family doesn't think that the campout is really appropriate for the whole family (even if the Pack is billing it as such).

You have to keep in mind that most Cub families haver never camped before. Some of the parents might have camped a little as a youth and some of the families might be avid campers, but the majority are novices. And pretty nervous about the whole thing too! What we did was pick a place that had a cabin with bunks, but also had room for tents. This way we could cook both inside and out, had flush toilets, and basically made it comfortable for everyone, no matter what their taste.

This past July was the first time my Pack has camped in quite a few years. We had a small turnout and there are things I will adjust for next time, but all in all, everyone who came said they had a great time and are looking forward to the next one! What also helped was that we were only about 30-45 min away and very flexible. Families felt comfortable in just dropping by for the day, coming and going, or only staying for 1 night (we did Fri & Sat night). As we do more camping the families will get more comfortable with it and more will attend. But I will keep in mind that there will always be a portion of the families (Tigers) who are new to camping and some who might not like it very much, but are trying their best for their Cub's sake. So I doubt if we will ever go to all tent or completely roughing it. I want to keep those families camping!

Check your local phone book for Boy Scouts of America. Then call or visit your local Scout office. They will be able to give you lots of info and tell you where you can find Cub Scout Packs in your area.

Or you can use the local council finder on the national website and just enter your zip code:

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=lc

You might also keep an eye out for young men in uniform selling Trail's End popcorn! Great popcorn and you can ask the boy questions on scouts!

Tigers are awesome!!

Nut

Permanent Tiger Leader

Popcorn Kernal

Laurie -

Even though you say both you and the Troop are chartered thru your church, is it possible that you are chartered thru 2 different organizations IN your church? Say for instance St. Fred Youth Outreach and St Fred Men's Club? That might explain the different numbers and the different COR's.

Don't forget Charter, Charter Organization, Charter Organization Rep, Rank, and Lord Baden Powell!

Our Roman Catholic church has been the CO for our Pack for over 50 years and our Troop for over 75 years. We also have a Girl Scout Troop in every grade from K thru 8. Not all of our CS, BS or GS's are members of the church or school. We have a meeting room specifically for Scouting and room to store all of our various Troops and Dens stuff. Our church, and all of its various organizations, have been very supportive of Scouting. None of the volunteers in any of the parish organizations or the school have ever been asked to be fingerprinted or had background checks. Nor have we been asked to do youth protection training. School started this week and scout meetings are also starting and still no one has been asked to submit to background checks. I can't think where the parish would find the money to pay for fingerprinting and complete background checks of every adult.

As for the public schools charging for meeting space, this is happening all over the country. It seems to be strictly a school district decision. I know that to use any of our local schools facilites on weekends costs about $200. This covers electric, heat, janitors & security. As a result, many of our GS troops meet in homes. Luckly, if needed, I can work with our parish secretary to find free time in our school/parish hall for Scouting stuff.(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

SCTMOM - Just what I was going to suggest!! On-line Fast Start has a great intro to every position in a Pack and the pdf document is a great additional help. After that try to get them to training as soon as possible. It sounds like you are not happy with your councils training. Try nearby councils, although New Leader Essentials does have some council specific info you may be happier with how the training is run. I have taken just about every Leader Specific course and I have found them overall to be pretty good. You should be able to get some good question and answer time with a leader who has been there and done that. Of course, like everything else, a lot depends on the Trainer!

I wouldn't be to quick to push two 30-35 page books on a new leader. That would make one heck of a thud on the table also and I know that it would kind of turn me off! Encourage new leaders to use the resourses that are already out there and offer yourself, or another seasoned leader, to be available for any and all questions. Perhaps you can invite the new leaders (different night per level) over to your house for a coffee and idea session! MUCH nicer than a 30-35 page novel! I just did that with our leaders for the 4th grade Webelos. I dug thru all of my old BSA, Pow Wow, internet, and even Girl Scout stuff I have and gave them copies of lots of things that were Webelos related. We talked about the differences between Cubs and Webelos and the Webelos program in general. We chatted, snacked, and had a great meeting!

MaineScouter, I might be missing something, but if your husband is the assistant committee chair in charge of Board of Reviews, why don't you just go to him with your concerns? I realize he can't be on the BOR for your son, but wouldn't he be the logical place to start changing the way your Troop does BOR's. Especially if he is the reason they started to re-test in the first place!

Just a thought.

BTW - I understand how it is in a "good 'ole boy" Troop. I've got one myself. Yours does at least let you work with the boys. My SM would rather cut his own throat, and considering how he is losing boys, maybe he has!

Personaly, I've been a co-leader for my dd's troop for going on 12 years now & I have loved every minute of it. I have seen my girls grow up and shared some great times with them.

You want our recruiting efforts more focused. Are you prepared to tell your dd or any other girl that they will not have a troop this year because council/SU has decided that you should not lead their level? In our SU we would throw a party if we could get enough people to volunteer for ANY level! We have girls on waiting lists for a troop in my council because they can't find an adult who will volunteer to lead.

I will worry about what level leaders funtion best at when we have at LEAST enough leaders to go around!

BTW - My Co & I have never limited the opportunity of ANY girl to join our troop. Also, between school, work, scouts, and silver, gold and religious awards our girls are not lacking in adult interaction!

Your SU should be holding registration soon. Why don't you wait until you have your new Juniors? It is very hard to have a patrol with only 3 girls.

Our girls tried different forms of troop government, but they always prefered to simply discuss, vote, & do things as a group.

You mention contacting local scouts in your area. Are you a registered member of a Cub Scout Pack? Who was your son's Den Leader last year for Tiger Cubs? Cub Scouts is best NOT done as a Lone Scout if at all possible. If you are not a member of a Cub Scout Pack you should call your local Boy Scout Council (they are in the phone book) and ask about nearby Cub Packs.