ScoutMomSD

have 2 paid for cars. My present to myself is to have my 1995 volvo painted this fall.

Havent purchased a new car in close to 20 years.

you are right - most folks buy/lease at $400 to $600/mo

the decrease in my net worth still scares me though

okay lets talk about the "gay" value - Canada has openly gay scouts:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/070300-02.htm

and her is a GOP San Diego politician AND Scout Dad who marched in the Gay Pride parade here:

"Nearly every San Diego city councilmember marched in this years parade. Participating for the first time were GOP council members Kevin Faulconer, who represents District 2, and District 7 second-term councilman Jim Madaffer.

Faulconer, according to his web site, has two children aged four and two. Madaffer has twin sons in Boy Scouting and is currently active in Scouts, according to a spokeswoman from his office. During his first term, Madaffer fought to keep the Scouts in Balboa Park, consistently siding with them in council votes. In 2001, he referred to the local homosexual community as a vocal minority. Now, however, he appears to be siding with them."

This was from a catholic website so its a bit biased to one side.

I have no issues with the above - input?????

Dont get me started on Halloween costumes. My daughter goes to a public middle school but its new and has a lot of neighborhoods where in my opinion people have more money than common sense or time for their kids.

The costume I saw the most last year was one I call the "slutty rag doll" which is a long yarn wig with a dolls dress that came close to their "hoo haw". My daughter said that most of them hiked the dresses up (and down in front) when teachers werent around.

I also saw a girl in a sexy french maid costume Seriously.

I am into logic and reason more than rules.I dont care if an adult (even 18 and older) wears an outfit like this to a party or even a frat party but NOT to middle school, or even high school. Who are these kids parents?

I think that is why I have a laissez faire attitude regarding the uniform. When kids AND there parents are dressing like Brittany Spears and worse, to have kids with clean clothes that cover the critical parts and looks nice is enough for me at my age.

believe it or not this happened to me.

My daughter has hermit crabs in a tank with sand in their upstairs bathroom. It is between two sinks. The sand from the crabs was rinsed into one side and my son left the water on. I work at home and went into my living room and the water was like you said, cascading through the light fixture onto our living room floor. This was about 90 minutes after the kids left so there was about an inch in this bathroom and quite a bit in the hall as well as two rooms surrounding it.

We have a carpet cleaner we use regularly who also does flood damage so basically I did a 911 call to them. here is what they do:

they brought their equipment that sucks water up for the excess water - then they pulled back the carpet and brought in I believe 4 large fans which were there I think 4 days. NOTE we are in an area that has basically NO humidity so it dried pretty quick.

If we hadnt done this we would probably have lost our ceiling as the drywall was bulged - you can still see the seams downstairs even now.

note - it cost around $700 I believe - luckily I am in a barter network and only a portion was in cash.

check into carpet cleaning/flood management services. If you are in areas that routinely flood (I noticed it is southeast) there should be plenty of these.

I am spinning this of from the thread begun on the bank run thread.

So no deal on finances, congress gone til Thursday, no one can agree. What next?

What are the solutions? I agree with how we got here: too much debt, living past their means, getting low payments and relying on the future home price increases, overvalued markets, yadda yadda.

But you cant keep punishing folks for what was done a year ago. I know, a lot of them deserve scorn BUT we cant just be ostriches and put our heads in the sand.

There is a slow domino effect here and I truly believe that not all have fallen yet.

Look are our parents (probably for some of you grandparents). They were depression kids. And that is the way we are heading.

BUT here are the differences:

housing as a percent of wages was much lower then.

credit was not as prevalent and easily available.

People didn't lease cars and later if they did it was for tax reasons, not because they couldnt really afford the car they drove.

Monthly expenses did not include cable tv, cell phones, internet service, etc.

Utility bills were not approaching $500/month.

Property taxes/home fees did not include Mello Roos fees, HOA fees, etc.

School sports were a part of SCHOOL, not extra. If you have your kids in 2 sports per year, you are probably spending another $300/year minimum that used to be included in school costs.

some other sobering stats:

50 years ago:

avg salary was $5000, avg house cost around $2500, avg car around $2000

Today:

avg salary is around $49,000 But for many families it takes 2 incomes to do that.Avg home costs are around $225,000 and an average car is around $28,000

And in our little corner of the world, even with home prices down, the average is around $430,000 down from the high of $574,000 in 2006.

And the stop gap for families when finances have gotten tight is, you guessed it, credit.

Point is what can we do about it and for those who say that in the "good old days" folks didnt have debt, etc, they didnt have the expenses either.

We need a plan for the reality of living in 2008. And we need it fast.

I admit I am scared ...less. At our age, we have figured we could retire in 10 or so years.

Our home is worth 24% less than at the height of the market, luckily we still have a lot of equity as we purchased new about 10 years ago.

We have always been savers. We have always contributed the maximum to whatever plans we each had. Now it seems like the mattress would have been a better option. I am too depressed to even check our funds, but I would hazard a guess that our net worth is about half what it was two years ago.

My daughter will be starting college in 6 years.

What is going to have to give?

so the message we are sending to our sons is that if your dad oggles chicks in cut off scout uniforms its GOOD, but if your mom wears a scout shirt with too many buttons open its wrong.

the more I am on these boards the more I worry that scouting is about the "appearance" of good, vs actually doing good.

Adam you are the man.

to have the you know whats to appear in your uniform on TV is great.

To see the folks on this board who are the same ones who go on and on ad nausea about the religious basis of scouts and then to tell someone that they are too big for the uniform, that whatever is in the wrong spot and then to make comments about the girls in the uniforms, give me a break.

I have actually READ the bible though I dont feel the need to bring up this point to make myself look or feel better than others. I do know the story of Mary Madelene - he who is without sin can cast the first stone. A lot of stones have been cast at this scout master.

now I know what i can be for Halloween - the uniform police.

And if I wear my scout shirt with a low cut tank under it to show my cleavage, I am sure that all on this board would approve as you all approved of the Brittany Spear's esque Deal or no deal outfits. Maybe my motto can be "female scouts: bringing sexy back".

But seriously this is much less funny. Its pretty sad. Adam, ignore them. They are jealous of the attention and the money you got. You go guy!

in California there is a kids theme plate where you can use symbols also -

Akela with a childs hand would be super cute out here.

I am 99% sure that in CA you couldnt have 4life or suckr due to the political and other overtones.

wow, thats a good size pack.

I would be really uncomfortable with that amount of control in one person. I have been worried about our pack with its growth. As with business, an organization can be very different from one year to the next and leadership needs to take this into account.

If the other leadership committee members feel as you do, could you band together and tell this person you would be happy to have him stay on as as a committee member and DL but due to the size of the pack, you really need to have one person dedicated to only the CC position. I feel that there are conflicts with the involvement in three layers of the organization.

I think people are always willing to step up if you give them some ideas. I know our Den is kind of a co-leader situation with multiple co leaders.

I would bet money at some point this person will just give up one job with no fallback. And I would put my money on the highest level being the keeper.

One of the hardest things is confronting folks in your group about this. Confronting is the wrong term. I have a good friend who was a Human Resources for years and now leads a non profit group in her area. I have told her she should give seminars about leadership in non profit groups as from what I can tell its a critical cog missing in lots of scout groups.

wow - interesting thread.

Is this on the books that Palin said "so if I asked you about taking a book out of the library what would you say?"

First, I never believe what critics say, book or movie. Most critics panned the last Indian Jones movie and I loved it. Also many books, movies, paintings, etc are considered trash or bad initially and works of art later - does the name Van Gogh ring a bell?

I went to a religious based elementary school and the librarian took the Nancy Drew books out of the library because they werent "true literature". So what was the favorite present of girls that year for their birthday, Nancy Drew books.

I did quite a bit of research on this whole controversy and to agree with some of the above posts, the point of the books is more against ORGANIZED religion and not a specific religion. It really is along the lines that as long as human beings are in charge of things and they are inherently flawed, there will be people who abuse power in business or in the Church. Ted Haggerty and Larry Craig come to mind. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, no matter who has the power.

Do all catholic priests or for that matter scout leaders molest - of COURSE not but when folks are put in power with no checks and balances, they feel they are entitled and in the worse case scenario, above reproach due to their position.

Another point is to think that at a certain age you are controlling what kids are reading (for that matter doing) is just silly. Pretty much 5th grade and on, they are starting on books with more mature themes. My daughter has read Stephen King books which are primarily thrillers but do have some off color themes. And I read Catch 22 at her age. As well as the Exorcist. Did my mom buy them? of course not.

I WANT my kids to read things that elicit questions and discussions. I believe there is a quote about giving your child not only roots but wings.

we went through a unique situation with our GS troop. They were really active til 4th grade but half the scouts were a year older, as was the daughter of the leader. When the older girls went to middle school in 6th grade, the troop fizzled to only doing about one activity every other month. Then last year when my daughter started 6th, we just stopped getting emails. Another mom said she was putting her daughter in a new troop, but it seems in middle school, the troops were by age only.

We just started a new troop and its a great fit for my daughter. Kids all REALLY want to be there. But my daughter missed a whole year AND missed the bridging ceremony. Many kids in CA bridge over the golden gate and she missed that entire experience.

Maybe you can check out some other Boy Scout groups and see if you can combine the ones interested in it - it will make for a more fun time. Also I recently learned about Venturing which sounds really fun - as they said "and we include girls".

Good luck!

"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."

Harold R. McAlindon

"Leadership: The art of getting someone else to do something you want done because he wants to do it."

Dwight D. Eisenhower

"There go the people. I must follow them for I am their leader". Alexandre Ledru-Rollin

Only truly great leaders care if they are doing a good job or not - many assume they are because they have the title. I have always said if you are concerned whether or not you are a good parent, you ARE a good parent because you are ahead of the majority of folks who assume because they can give birth they can parent.

Keep up the good work.

I am pretty new to the forums and have been a bit tentative about posting here as I know there are others in my pack who post here, but do not know their online names.

I am in my second year with our pack and have a fabulous Den. My son has made GREAT friends and I have also made friends with the other moms in our Den. It works because it has ended up that the moms in our Den have similar opinions and interests.

I really like our pack. The pack is not that old but has done a really incredible job of growing. We are now what I would call a mid to large size pack. The DM is super and has taken on a challenging job with enthusiasm and a great amount of care for the boys and families.

My vote is out on our district which is why I dont want to give any more details about the specific area. My feeling is that they are out of touch with current issues and are into the "well we have always done it that way" philosophy.

I truly enjoy scouts and at my age (we became parents later in life) I am pretty unwilling to put up with things which dont benefit myself and my family. The pack and scouts provides a lot of unique and challenging opportunities for my son and husband as well as myself.

I am a native californian, am a liberal and have a lot of unique views about some of the basics of scouting. But this world would be boring if we all had the same opinion, right?

Thanks for the opportunity to share info!

my son is so skinny the shirt continually comes untucked. Even with the belt, which doesnt cinch in enough, it always comes out. I spent a ton of time at popcorn site sales tucking the shirt in. Of course then he and a friend took the belts off and played Indiana Jones with them so I had to take the belts away. I would rather see untucked than someone's eyes poked out.

further, I have seriously never seen a woman in a scout uniform who looked good with the shirt tucked in. Unless you have no boobage and no hips the outfits rise and crunch in the wrong places, and are just not comfortable. I am still struggling with this one.

Thats another difference with Girl Scouts - basically after Brownies the girls usually just wear the pin and the vest or sash. And the leaders wear t shirts that say "Girl Scout Leader " or just Girl Scouts

Hi - I am pretty new to these boards too.

First, what age is your son? There is unfortunately an age at which scouting is no longer "cool". Is he in 5th grade or above?

My son is in 2nd and its still fun for him. However my daughter is in 7th and just rejoined GS's as her old troop broke up. But she would rather have her eyes poked out with a stick than admit this to her friends and folks in school not in scouting. Luckily with girls, they have really cool shirts at this age, but she wont even wear those unless she is around only her troop.

My personal feeling is that its the energy and involvement of the pack parents that make or break the group. Are the leaders good? Are they doing things the boys like? are the parents positive or negative? Are they open to suggestions/change?

If your son likes the boys I would try to band together with his friends parents and make it work, and make sure to do things that meet requirements AND the boys like. I ended up with some good friends when we as a Den banded together to do whatever it took to make it work.

This is why I think family involvement is important. I want to make sure that whatever is being discussed and taught to my boy is something I know about and agree with. If I dont agree with it, I will freely give my kids my opinions on it.

We all do our best to teach our kids. Also I feel that there are many aspects of scouting that are subject to interpretation. And as to ethics, that is also a personal/family issue. Things I consider ethical you may not, and things I consider unethical you may consider ethical.

I think its unethical/immoral that Brittany Spears mom wrote a book about parenting and considers herself a good religious person. I consider it unethical that a neighbor of mine considers it not important for her numerous kids to go to college, but critical they go to church numerous times per week. I consider it unethical immoral to go to church and hear the words, but in action not apply these concepts.

And my kids pretty much know all of these opinions. Especially my middle schooler.

I am really sorry.

I dont know if reading these boards will make you feel better or worse.

When we joined the pack, we ended up in what I would call the "leftover" Den. I admit that I was not happy about the situation. But what ended up happening is that the mom's (and pretty much for all but one child it was the mom who took the son to the meetings) banded together and did what it took to make our Den not only successful but really FUN and successful and now we have a Den that is great and I have some very good friends who are more like me than the other Den. And I have gotten involved in the committee meetings and sincerely enjoy the folks there and the pack overall.

Are there people I have had issues with, yes. Are there folks with opinions that are 180 degrees from mine, absolutely. But I have to say that I really really love our pack and it actually took me a while to get to that place. We have had difficulties but it seems that the difficulties have bonded us more and put us on the same side.

Communication is a HUGE issue. In scouting you are dealing with a group of people from different backgrounds and expectations. Women who have never worked, men who have high powered careers, divorced moms and dads, and everything in between, and to think everyone will come together and get along is crazy.

Gauge whether the positives outweigh the negatives. Does your son like the kids he is with? Do you? if not is it a personality thing or is it your or your son's personality. My son is very active and outgoing and the kind of kid that pretty much gets along with everyone, my daughter has a harder time making friends and tends to keep a few really good friends.

I had kids later in life and choose the people and events I spend my time with carefully as life is short. If you hate it get out, if you think you can help save it, help and try to make it work.

Nancy, I feel for you. Having not been in your shoes, my take on it would be to ask the dad to meet with the Den Leader and CC. I think its the old "we dont care what you do in your personal life away from scouts but you need to keep it out of the scouting arena" making it clear its not a value judgement, but about the boys.

There was a different issue with a couple in our pack and I have to say to the credit of the dad, he acted in a very mature and professional way. Of course he is a very intelligent professional in his personal life. It did not bleed over into the scouts.

I will be blunt, kidding or not, many of the above comments are offensive. It reminds me of the oft stated quote of my kids who say "it was an accident" - my comment is always, accident or not, joke or not, its still inappropriate. And will be dealt with as if it was done on purpose. Its like using the N word, then saying "just kidding" or the B word to a woman, and stating "just kidding".

I have an issue with this statement from Mr Boyce "Kick me for saying this all you like, but there's a strong part of me that wants to say, "this kind of stuff is what you get when you start bringing more women into the program." OK, kick away. Interesting to recall, was in 79?, the number of pregnancies that happened on board a Navy ship on a long Mediterranean tour a few years back. Not that many pregnancies in WW II duty, I'll bet!"

So I assume that Hillary and Sarah Palin arent the right folks to bring "into the (political) program", right? And I would bet that despite the change in the armed forces mix, the percent of men with STD's hasnt changed - in fact werent a lot of the STD's we have now in the US originally from the wars?

I would be fine TODAY backing out of scouts and having my hubbie do all. BUT he cant make all the meetings and events, isnt the one keeping the schedule of all the events, doesnt buy or sew on the patches or uniform, read the handbook, and doesnt have time to go to the leadership meetings. Our pack was started primarily by 2 women also. So this week I wash and pack the clothes and supplies for my hubbie and son's weekend. I think I speak for myself as well as the other mom's in our Den and pack - GO FOR IT, take it ALL away from me!

the comment from ndlsscout "gwd-scouter,I take it your a Obama fan, your choice, though I feel bad for you."

do we have to as parents act this way? would you let your child say this of another child? I wouldnt.

NJ scouter - good points. Good discussion of issues.

If we want our kids to "play nice" cant we rationally discuss issues? I can as easily as the next degrade into name calling but does that move us forward?

what is interesting is that from what I observe the boys with the most manly men as fathers seem to have the least manly sons, which is interesting.

I dont think using the term boys will be boys to justify bad behavior is good. Lets be honest with statistics the way they are, it is just a given that probably at least one in 10 or less boys you know or who are in scouting will end up being gay. And so what.

At the beginning of this year my son said that a certain boy was gay. (this is a 7 year old) I asked why he said this and he said another boy said it because this boy hugged another boy. I went through what gay really means (nothing sexual) and just like when kids get "the talk" the next question was whats for dinner.

Its not abour making your kids what you want them to be, its about nurturing their talents. Whether they want to be a motocross driver or a fashion designer, we need to be there to encourage them along the way and expose them to great fun and challenges, which scouting will help with.

VolScouter -

I appreciate that you are not name calling and that you can speak without bringing the old rhetoric. You and I should fly to DC and figure this thing out!

I agree the partisanship is wrong. I freely admit that the Dems in congress have not been as aggressive and I think that they are coming across as wishy washy.

Thanks

GREAT thread - lots of fun!!! I love politics.

1) Beavah - whats with the redneck nascar talk? I am sorry, I have seen this a lot and just have to call it out. I dont get it - are you proving your lack of education - seriously - if this is about scouting and being a good role model, I prefer those who can speak and spell. JMO.

2) I am sick of BOTH sides quoting old white guys who mean nothing to today's economy. Hoover, FDR, Reagan, and now McCain is talking about Teddy Roosevelt? Those under 20 are probably thinking "wow a president was named after a stuffed bear" - thats a joke ps. Today's economy works in lightning speed, including investments, cash management, etc. Quote Buffet, Gates or someone who actually has some current knowledge.

3) I have at least 5 core issues that I consider to be essential to my life and my children's future and because those are issues that the Democratic party holds dear, that is how I will vote. Yes I like Obama and think he has the ability to speak well and motivate people AND agrees with my issues, he is my choice. I am a values voter - if you support my values, you have my vote.

4) The same folks that are offended at questions about McCain's houses are the same folks who stood in line to "cast the first stone" at Kerry regarding his marriage and "stuff" with Theresa Heinz. They both married rich chicks, can we move past that? So they are both the Anna Nicole Smith's of their parties, so what?

I want both candidates to tell us more about the economy, how their stated plans will be affected by the economy and to be more specific.

sorry, I get riled up with politics.

well I have seen a lot of debates - having kids later in life, I remember when many of the debates were held and those key moments, such as the "you're no Jack Kennedy" one by Benson.

At least my kids know a lot (more than they would like) about politics. We tape the AM sunday morning shows, watch the daily show pretty much daily, watch a lot of CNN, etc. I even took my daughter out of school to stand in line to meet Hillary Clinton when she came to San Diego to sign her book, WAY before her political intentions were out. I wanted her to see the first lady AND to see the side show which was a real eye opener.

And I am very happy that in my 13 year olds history class this year they are learning about the middle eastern cultures, so hopefully their generation will understand the roots of those areas and not base decisions about what they can see from their house. But I digress.

Despite my leanings, I agree I would like to have seen more direct answers about the current economic situation from both. The problem is that with the speed that media moves these days, every statement is taken in snippets and thrown back at you with lightning spped so their handlers on both sides have them so trained to stay away from promising anything that is really boils down to digging info out of them.

I was super disappointed in Jim Lehrer - he acted more like a parent.

Why cant we have a debate moderated with John Stewart and Newt Gingrich. Both are strong on their side but not overly radical (like say Bill Mahrer and Sean Hannity)

my opinion is that McCain didnt look at him because if he had we would have lost it and they are trying to keep that from happening (the handlers)

I have a daughter who is just getting back into GS's after her troop dissoved between Elementary and Middle School.

My mom was a leader, I was a GS for years and I helped with the troop my daughter was in.

As my daughter is older (my son is a wolf) I will point out what I perceive to be the differences:

1) I have brought up GS a few time at BS leader meetings and from one person specifically there was a comment to paraphrase "for girls its just about being stronger, for boys its about turning them into men" - again not the exact quote but the concept. My feeling - barf, give me a break.

2) in both it comes down to leadership and top down management. We are now in a different council than we were before and this council is definately more in touch with what girls want to do. Its a whole different vibe and one that both my daughter and I like better especially for a 7th grader. And to be blunt its in a younger more economically advantaged area. Coincidentally our Cub scout pack is in the geographic area of our old GS council and I see that as a disadvantage to the ability to be modern, current and focus on activities that relate to what the boys really want to do.

3) NOTE this is a broad brush generalization - Girls are more dramatic and more socially a problem than boys in general. With girls a lot of the issues are internal with boys, they somehow work out stuff between each other much easier than the girls do. For girls you really have to find a troop where the girls are interested in the same stuff or have really close friends in it, or it wont work.

4) From my past experiences and from reading posts, NEITHER BSA or the GS's are like it was 30 plus years ago when I was a GS.

5) Plus for BSA - starting our second year as Cub Scouts, I really like the family inclusion aspect of the group and that the families are more involved. I do like the number of ages and the fact that the pack goes on, where in troops, it basically is only as strong and as long as the girls are interested.

6) Plus for girl scouts - with smaller groups, you can do a lot more. There is less red tape and layers of crap to go through before doing something. A lot of the things are literally "hey this weekend there is a seminar on music want to go? Sure, who is driving" - its a quick thing. Also the girls at this age have a huge amount of input as if they dont want to do it, its not going to be done.

7) Cookies vs Popcorn - the girls have a time tested product everyone in the world knows, I didnt even know about the popcorn until around 2 years ago. As a store manager told us when we had a store front conflict problem "the girl scouts really have it together with this kind of stuff" compared to Cub Scouts. With cookies there is a process, procedure from the top down to the individual girl. I see with Cub scouts a lot of reinventing of the wheel and burning out folks who volunteer (re popcorn).

8) The "chick/dude" thing - Its rare you see a male GS leader (and lets be honest, who wouldnt question that right?) but women in Boy Scouting are pretty common. A lot of this comes from that we have schedules, the vans, the station wagons and are the family gatekeepers of the schedules but I think the dynamics of the Dens and Pack are interesting with this thrown in. I personally have to say I really got into scouting so my husband could spend some more quality time with our son as he works a ton, but what I have noticed in a number of situations is its the mom's that seem to carry a lot of the work of the pack forward, or at least 50% of it. I think this makes for a challenge when it comes to leadership (and trust me I am a dyed in the wool feminist).

The bottom line is that BOTH should be providing a fun and educational experience for the kids, and if they arent, they arent doing their job.