ScoutMomSD

holy moly - another book?

is this NOT within the advancement stuff?

does anyone have a link - I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about - thanks

thanks so much to the folks who contacted me on and off the board.

It was one of my experiences with the State board of equalization (which in the name gives you a clue) and a sales tax audit that was one of the things which started my question.

Years ago I worked for a for profit hospital chain. It was very common for the corporate office to buy in bulk large items be it furniture to remodel or x-ray equimpent. They would buy from a central location and it would be shipped to each facility.

The PROBLEM is that the vendors were not consistent on their treatment of the tax. Some collected no tax, some collected their states tax, and some were correct and collected California tax (usually only if they had operations in the state).

It is not just SALES tax it is a USE tax. So if the item is purchased in Georgia but used in California, even if you paid sales tax in GA, you STILL owe Use tax in CA. What you have to do is to file for a refund from the State of Georgia and then pay CA (not in that order).

I am also an ebay seller and a member of an eBay sponsored group that assists with development of new ideas and other issues and one issue they are dealing with is the current desire to make sellers not only collect sales tax on all items but remit it to the correct state. This is a nightmare but again it shows that the government is at a point where they are going to look under EVERY rock to find dollars.

Thanks again - As you said John, CA is different - plus we have the Governator who will come and beat us up if we dont do it right!!! I always tell folks who balk at paying sales tax and live here "Arnold wants him money".

just a note - I am sure the folks at the national star outside of work are lovely folks ....BUT

my opinion - they are a taco short of a combo plate.

I have ordered from them TWICE only and both times the orders were wrong.

This last time I ordered a craft item and some uniform items. For the uniform items, they sent only one number (6 or 9) and sent a bunch of them. Then they didnt send the craft but instead sent 2 dozen dark green socks. ?????? And the invoice and packer showed what I ordered not what was shipped.

When I called and explained the situation, the lady said "uh huh" and that was it. So I said can I send them back and they did accept them back AND pay for my return shipping but I was really surprised that the person on the phone didnt really seem shocked or surprised. Maybe she hadnt had her morning grits.

anyway, with 2 out of 2 wrong, my confidence in them is low.

We have been having patches custom made and they are around .75/patch. And they are smaller as those Cub Vests can really fill up.

thanks for all the input and keep it going.

I will post what I have found out from various places - I am surprised that this doesnt come up more often especially with tax season upon us.

1) One website described it as like a franchisee. This concept makes sense to me. To use the logo you have a set of rules to follow but the bottom line is it is YOUR organization.

2) Due to costs, etc our unit will probably never be a group which meets the test for non profit status per IRS guidelines.

3) the BSA tells (a threat?) units that if they (dare?) apply for tax exempt status their charter can be pulled. Obviously there are many groups (again who are separate entities) who have chosen to do so anyway. And I am talking about those who do not have a "ready made" non profit they are attached to (ie church, Elks, etc).

I think the remaining question is that if you are a unit without non profit/tax exempt status AND have funds that carry over what if any annual forms need to be filed?

I guess I have seen a lot of stuff in corporate finance that could curl your hair with regard to audits and I just have a nagging feeling that sometime somewhere the Fed or State is going to want a piece.

I am not sure how individual units get around the whole sales tax and income tax issue if we earn money. If we truly are not a non profit, arent we a for profit? How can popcorn sales NOT be taxable and subject to sales and income tax? Is BSA considering the money they give back a gift? There is something with this whole deal I am missing. If we WOULD have to file, what would we file and how?

Again I know this is a bit detailed but I appreciate the input. Again if I find more out will let you know

its really unusual to me that an organization that seems to have so many strict rules has a hands off approach to things of that nature.

It kind of reminds me of the independent contractor test for 1099 vs w-2 status.

If we are all "independent" units, what is the legal "hold" that the other portions of the regional area have over the individual packs and troops. Hold is probably the incorrect word.

Taxes are not my interest or strong suit. But I have worked in many organizations with a central corporate entity and many subsidiaries. And I have worked with internal and external auditors, state and federal auditors and my fear is that in the current economy, the tax collection entities are going to want to look under every rock, nook and cranny to get any dollars they can. I just dont want good people and volunteers to be penalized for unclean and undefined policies.

I guess you can take the chick out of the CFO's office but you cant take the CFO out of the chick (even 13 years later).

I have a question about Tax Exempt status.

Our pack is "self organized" so is not under a tax exempt organization.

From reading the IRS publications as well as doing a google search on scouting and the exemption, the "theory" varies widely from area to area.

There are some councils who tell units to use theirs if they dont have one. There are others that say absolutely not.

With Girl Scouts its very simple. The council has the number, they give it to all the troops, end of story.

I was wondering if this is in any way associated with the religious nature of the group OR if its just something that folks just do and dont publicize.

It just seems that something very simple is very complex.

Input? On doing a search of non profits on the IRS.gov website there are many what appear to be self chartered units that have filed for tax exempt status - in fact a LOT.

thank you so much in advance. I have a finance/accounting background so I really want to understand the hows and whys of this.

I hate to say it but I agree with the comment:

"many times our councils don't know jacksh*t or are part of the problem we're trying to solve."

I am still not even 2 years into Boy Scouting (with at least 15 years Girl Scouting between myself and my daughter) and I still am mystified with the whole overall communication/leadership/structure thing.

Its not our pack issue, its a global policies issue.

with girl scouts the funds only transfer if the group dissolves and the funds go to the new "troop".

We do not have a Boy Scout troop that is made only of our "graduates" and there is no way in heck with what we do as a pack I would ever propose sending money out. If they move out of state AND to another Cub Scout pack that MAY be a different issue.

As an older parent in the group with a husband who is older than I, I feel like you need to figure out the best way to communicate and with some Den's or groups you may need to do a combo.

I will be blunt (there's a shock) I dont like the "ring and ditch" method of communication. Those of us who have worked in large companies know there are always "CYA" folks who send out memo's that get buried and then come up with "well I emailed you about it" as an excuse.

There is also the concept that folks need to hear things 3 times at least to set in (my teachers used to say 3 times 3 for learning concepts.).

As the CC in training I am really going to work on this as in the past its been kind of a "well the info is here" instead of ongoing emails and reminders.

If you do a newsletter with dates, do you also email the dates? Are you sure all read? if most DONT do leaders discuss all the dates at their den meetings? Who is responsible when folks dont come - does the Den leader call? does the Cub Master ever call?

Personally I dont do messages on my phone. I just dont, period. I dont want to and will not learn - I am not in a job where I need it and am not going to set up just for Scouts. But I am probably almost twice as old of some of the young parents.

I am also always losing my newsletter. I would like to have this emailed or have the dates in an email I can refer back to.

I am not sure if you are a mom or dad or your Den leader is male or female as I believe that makes a difference (and I am a died in the wool Feminazi as Rush would call me).

Last weekend my daughter helped with a Brownie sleepover and their activites were face painting, dress up, freeze dance, crafts and hair braiding. These were kids 7, 8, 9. I think somewhere we expect that boys will always like something different but at this age kids like pretty basic stuff. My son would have loved the freeze dancing.

I think mom's are more comfortable with crafts a lot. Maybe some of the dad's could come up with some things like building (the derby is a good outlet for this), nature walks, knot tying, etc. Based on my experience if you are willing to step up and lead a project especially if you can tie it to the achievements, people will be more than happy to let you.

Our Den is run where we rotate who leads the activity and we all do stuff. I have to say we have been LIGHT on crafts as there are a lot of dad's involved.

Also I know the Home Depot in our area on weekends sometimes does kid stuff like building a bird house. You may be able to go somewhere like this if you cant host it.

good luck. Tigers are a fun age.

packsaddle - I agree.

almost all wars around the world, many of which are still going on, were started due to religious intolerance of other views.

Believe what you want, just dont try to convert me or my kids and dont preach to my kids unless you know I approve. Thats it. Have fun in the sandbox kids.

fun facts - did you know the Muslim faith is one of the fastest growing in the world. Also did you know they now allow soldiers to be buried and claim their faith as Wicca?

the world is moving and changing. if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

Jim-dont go. I know, as Judge Milian says "been there had a cup of coffee and come back"

A friend of mine, a fellow Girl scout mom to a 13 year old, moved here (CA) from Colorado about a year ago. I cut and pasted the OP's beginning thread and her comment "its a shame, its not about the scouts but about the parents".

Jump in or not, what we who disagree need to realize is that these opinions exist and whether or not you hear it, they exist to a greater degree within the local and national Boy Scout leadership. To me its educational and makes me think. There are a few folks (not that many) in our pack who I vehemently disagree with on their opinions and personally I feel weird going to meetings at LDS centers which are supposedly for scout leadership.

What I have learned is that its about the boys and all the other is just carp, respelled. I do it for my son and to heck with the rest. And I am going to do it in the way that works best for me and my den and pack. And our results to date are pretty awesome (as my daughter would say). We are 10 times the size that was started when the current Webelo's were tigers.

Also remember that the most vocal are many times not the most widely held opinions. The presidential elections were a resounding reinforcement of that fact.

from this board I would add the following to intorable behavior:

1) a Democrat

2) any religion other than Christian or LDS (for many faiths RC are NOT Christians)

3) being gay or thinking you are gay or knowing someone who is gay or voting against prop 8

gotta get back to my box of twinkies

this is one of those threads that would have had me po'd before, but now that we won, I find it really humorous.

Thanks for keeping me smiling about the scouts. Really, this is better than the Daily Show.

money is a very sensitive issue these days.

We have a flat annual fee and only charge extra for camping. If there is a financial need, the scout can ask for help.

We sell a lot of popcorn so it covers most of the costs also.

I have a finance/accouting background and any time money is talked about it kind of makes me cringe as some folks just glaze over when talking about it, but its a subject that can quickly become a problem if not dealt with head on.

John 8:

"This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

There is a point at which spouting opinions should be over written by the words that are being taken "in vain".

"Comparing the program for a 7th grade Girl Scout to that of a 2nd grade Cub Scout, is like comparing apples to pineapples. Please do NOT do that. Would you compare the program for Daiseys to that of Cadette Girl Scouts?"

I wasnt doing that - I was comparing the program for Brownies and Juniors for the weekend that my daughter helped CREATE to the programs for Cub scouts who are the same age. In fact I saw a number of girls who are in my son's class that my daughter was working with at the weekend.

I was trying to compare philosophies of training young adults, the primary focus being Cadette age and retention vs Boy Scout age and retention.

with regard to good or bad parenting, I have found its the kinds that have this pounded into them at a young age who are the most likely to rebel at a later age, say teens.

Its funny when I started on these boards folks like packsaddle and beavah used to confound me - now I find them to be the shining voices of moderation and reason.

Guess I'm back.

"I teach my children (7 and 10) about Jesus because as a parent that is my job. Whether or not they choose to believe or make a profession of faith in Christ is theirs."

Thats not your job that is your CHOICE. Its not required to be a parent to teach kids about Jesus. Ask anyone who is Jewish about that. Are they bad parents?

interesting

just returned last evening from a weekend with my daughter's cadette troop at Girl Scout Encampment. I really enjoyed it and as am involved with my 8 yr old's Cub Scout pack was kind of trying to note some of the differences and also take some clues away from this incredibly successful weekend.

On the way home a group of us went to lunch and a discussion arose about religion. Both other parents had husbands who had been boy scouts and I mentioned how my perception was that there was a heavy religious hand in Boy Scouts as opposed to Girl Scouts (although they DO pledge allegiance). We agreed that we were all pretty uncomfortable with this infusion or pressure plus the husbands didnt even remember that part of scouts.

Bottom line is that the biggest difference I can see between Girl and Boy Scouts is that Girl Scouting is very child focused. My daughter's troop planned and executed most of the events for the weekend, with events geared to younger girls at one point and older girls at another. The events were fun and the girls really enjoyed them. The parents really took a back seat to the whole weekend as our focus is what are we doing to help the girls have a good time and learn something.

My perception with Boy Scouts is that it is very PARENT focused. The parents make the decisions and darn it, like it or not the boys will do what we want them to do. Its not that the boys dont have fun also but this isnt the primary goal. The parents and scouting has an agenda (not assigning a right or wrong just what I see) of what the boys should/could be doing. After our last pack campout there were a couple of Dad's who were disappointed because not all the little boys (6, 7, 8 year olds) wanted to take a long hike up a mountain before dinner. And they didnt really care what the kids wanted, it was and I quote "I personally think it is vital not to over-structure the campouts for the kids. They need time to throw rocks (not at each other) drag sticks, run around like chickens and climb trees....We must absolutely and at all times keep them safe, but not insulated. Struggling up hills is good for them (and their parents). Walking under the stars is very good especially if it is scary at first. Falling in the lake is a good thing if you learn something from it. Getting poison oak is good if you need that to remember why you have to identify it. Getting blisters close to camp instead of on your first long hike with the Boy Scouts is a good thing....."

Its just interesting. I just want my child to get outside and into nature. But I dont really care about the whole getting blisters and being manly for goodness sake. This is a kid who still likes to dance and rock out to American Idol and High School musical.

Then adults wonder why boys dont want to continue in scouting. With my girl this weekend she learned leadership, responsibility (because the mom's actually make the kids clean up, just like at home), how to work with young kids and adults and how to organize and structure a day. Great leadership skills for herself and for preparing for high school and college.

She still doesnt like admitting she is a girl scout but she has a blast and its HER decision because since day one, its been about the girls NOT about the parents.

Bottom line is to actively try to eliminate kids from scouting based on their parents is just a crime. I know its a private institution but what you are creating is a group where the larger population is just not welcome. I just dont recall what chapter in the bible this comes from.

We have a great pack and I will take my son to a church to learn about these goals. But our personal beliefs should have nothing to do with the 99% of things they can learn about in scouting.

jmo

I really feel for you. Tough situation.

We have kind of a "rogue" Den that used to be in another pack and had "problems" with that Pack and asked if they could come to us. They go to a different elementary school and really act as a single person.

The really hard thing is you want to do what's best for the kids. And you know that the kids dont care. My experience with boys is that they are mad at someone one day and best friends the next day. I also have a 13 year old girl and trust me, talk about drama and infighting, young girls are HARD.

I would be really really nice. I agree on the cup of coffee and basically saying "what can we do to make sure the boys have a good experience at the Blue and Gold". If one of the adults says no, ask if there is an assistant or alternate parent who can represent the Den.

I would say that the "big stick" you have is the money. This is definately a reinforcement for dues which INCLUDE all these things. If your dues include patches and the B&G you have the ability to say HOW this money is spent.

Good luck - its hard when the adults act more like Cubs than their kids

another note - when I had a real job pre kids one of the ways that you learned your job was to talk to other people in your position.

It just seems like in a large group like Scouts your first line of information would be folks in your job in other packs, NOT necessarily the district. They should be able to tell you what really happens and real world answers.

My perception is that this is not routine and I dont really understand it. - Does anyone else do this - We are in an area with 11 districts (in San Diego County) and I assume that this translates to a minimum of probably 50 to 60 packs?

It just seems like each pack has to re-invent the wheel on an ongoing basis.

it was a roundtable not a district committee meeting.

Also I am trained - have been through the CC and the leader training and the online training also. But since no one really goes "by the book" to the letter I was just looking for some real life examples.

thanks again

W O W!!!!

call me impressed - you all put a lot of thought into this.

W O W!!!!

call me impressed - you all put a lot of thought into this.

now my stress level is really up.

Most of the positions that would be "job description" type do not attend commitee meetings regularly, ie advancement, treasurer, or other. Is there a list of suggested positions?

I will be blunt - I went to our District commitee meeting and just wasnt that impressed. Basically it is pretty much controlled by one HUGE boy scout troop in that area which really isnt demographically similar to our pack. But it is huge and has been there forever.

I need to check into the job descriptions. The way I would phrase it is that basically in the past anything that no one else did or didnt want to do or never did, the CC filled in the blanks.

If you have a pack our size and could tell what positions exist and if they routinely come to commitee meetings it would be great.

I am kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. The current CC is so well liked and knows everyone and also again basically does it all. Kind of the Pack Mom. I am more than 100% sure I cannot do all she has done but I just dont want to fall on my face.

Thanks for you input.