Rooster7

Uncleguinea, Where do you live? Let me know, I'd like to move to a community that has those kind of ethics. In the D.C. area, unless he/she is a minor, the accused (forget about formal charges or a conviction) is always noted by name.

Jason, Here are my thoughts and observations: 1) As a 20 year-old, with no experience in Scouting (except Cub Scouting for a couple of years), I volunteered to be a Webelos leader. The local pack welcomed me with open arms. 2) If youre concerned that your intentions will be misconstrued, be upfront about it. Tell them Look, if I was in your shoes, Id be questioning why a 27 year-old without any sons is interested in doing this. Then explain exactly why you are interested. 3) Emphasize that you will always follow two-deep leadership (which should be expected). This too should help you gain the trust of the troop. 4) If you volunteer to be a SM, be sure you have the energy and drive to see it throughat least for a couple of years. If you cant complete a two year commitment, you wouldnt be doing them any favors. 5) Before accepting a position as SM, be sure the committee members understand how you intend to approach the troop. This will help ensure that you have their blessings and avoid conflicts over style. 6) I would not enter the Girl Scout program. As a born again Christian, I think you will find their philosophy concerning a variety of matters to be contrary to yours. As a general rule, many Girl Scout troops preach a worldview that is very much in sync with the times. 7) If one troop does not want you, then try another down the street. If you say youre saved, then I believe you. But let me tell you - if you think youre worthless, or if you feel compelled to ask us, do you guys and gals think I would be able to offer the scouts anything then you need to find some strong believers and have a talk. Theres no way God is going to let you believe that not for very long. In fact, he may well be asking you to join Scouts to help some boys that have the same kind of background as yours. If youre pulling yourself together, who better to sympathize and offer advice to a boy who feels left behind or unloved? As for college, its never too late. I spent many years in night school. Even without college, if youre willing to work hard and be open with your managers theres usually many opportunities for upward movement (and the pay that goes with it). Six months ago I was thrown into a new position which has me dealing with a lot of project managers and upper level management. I wasnt sure I was right for the job. But I told myself the H*ll with this and started asking a lot of questions probably dumb questions to some. Today, Im getting a lot of kudos at work. Im recognized as someone who understands the process and knows how to deal with the customer. Not because I have a college degree, or because Im naturally brilliant But because I was willing to ask dumb questions and not care what others might say about me. Its your life. You can sit back and let people define you OR, you can trust God and define yourself. His opinion is truly the only one that matters. Of course, having said this, if things don't work out the way you thought they would...continue to trust the Lord and accept what comes your way with grace and humility. In Him.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

Respect - to express deference, honor, or esteem towards. Do you honor the beliefs of others, even when some of those beliefs defile your own beliefs about God? As I said, I respect one's right to chose his own beliefs - BUT I do not necessarily respect the belief itself. As to whether or not some wanna-be-lawyer could have me disqualified as a leader, I'm not too concerned about it. I know who I am and what I'm about, as do those who know me. If the BSA expels me based on my treatment of the 12th point of the Scout Law, then they're not the organization that I gave them credit for being. I seriously doubt that this will come to pass. Jason, if you smell something...that would be me...sorry about that chief! ;-)

Firstpusk, If you choose to be obtuse, that is your prerogative. Are you trying insult my intelligence or defame my honesty? Either way, it doesnt sound very friendly. The choice of analogy was particularly offensive and you would know it if you honestly reflected on it for even a moment. I think I defended my position on this rather well. Unfortunately, rather than directly address my argument, you offer slurs claiming I am being obtuse and offensive. I have noted other such "arguments" from you in the past on a number of different issues. When called on it you claim you have been misread. Okay, so now youre insinuating that I am a liar. Please produce some facts. Soon after that you will question the intelligence, character or honesty of the person. How ironic. If youre going to continue to make these statements, you should at least change your username to Mr. Kettle. You did not disappoint me this time either you questioned my integrity and asked for an honest debate. That is also your prerogative. You got me on that one. You attributed statements to me that I did not make. I called you on it that simple. However, if the intent of your post was only to discuss how you would proselytize outside of the BSA program, it would be easy enough to apologize for the lack of clarity in your writing and to simply say that. I see no need to apologize for your erroneous assumptions. Let me offer this instead: Dont jump to conclusions. I will reiterate what I said earlier. If you can not honestly respect the beliefs of others, find another program. Well, Im afraid that theres just no way I am going to respect the belief that a cow is a deity or that one day you or I might evolve into a god. So, if you respect those kinds of beliefs more power to you. Im not going to stand before my God and explain to Him why I gave any such notion any kind of credence. The BSA can do better than a volunteer that is compelled to compare the faith practices of others in such a crass and mean-spirited manner. Hmmmcrass and mean-spirited, I see you couldnt resist one last dig. For a man who apparently takes pride in being open mindedas someone who has respect for every possible faith, you dont have much patience for someone who has a different perspective on the 12th point of the Scout Law. I find your logic difficult to comprehend. You can respect a man who worships a rock, but you cant respect the man whos offended by that belief. Evidently, one must respect all things if he wants to be respectable. The only thing that is not respectable is someone who refuses to respect all things. According to this kind of reasoning, all Scouts must support Universalism. This is the religious concept that proclaims all roads lead to God, and thus all beliefs about God are respectable. The God of the Bible is a jealous God. To say the least, He frowns on this kind of wavering. My faith demands that I recognize Him alone. To give respect to false beliefs is an affront to my God. This is my religious belief do you respect it? If not, for the sake of your intellectual and moral integrity, I recommend that you resign your position as a Scouter. If you do respect it, I think we can be friends.

You're not a priest. You have an obligation to be completely forthright with a Scouts parents unless there's good reason (i.e., abusive parents) not to be. Every Scout should expect nothing less. Parents are not the enemy and Scouts should not be given the impression that they are anything less than who they are - the adults who are ultimately responsible for their upbringing and well-being. This is a pet peeve of mine: Organizations and individuals, who are given temporary trust of a child, yet chose to withhold information about that child from his/her parents. Unless they have a legitimate reason to be concerned about that childs safety, this should never be the case. As to the expectation of confidentially - Why would a Scout have this expectation unless Scout leaders are overtly stating it as a troop or personal policy? We should never give a Scout the impression that we his confidant for secrets that is a duty/privilege reserved for his parents. That being said, we should share with the parents as much as we reasonably can it should only be limited by our time and energy available to do so.

Firstpusk, Your toilet water analogy said it all. Could you be more crass and less respectful in choosing something to compare the befiefs of another? It was simply an analogy. And if it was disrespectful it was not aimed at any particular individual, or even a particular faith for that matter. So, if someone has taken offense, Id like to know on what basis since a) analogies are not to be taken literally, and b) there was no reference to any specific person or religion. As a scout leader, your job is not to convert others to your beliefs. It is to provide the program. First, not once in this entire thread have I ever stated or even implied that I felt it was my job as a Scout leader to convert anyone. Debate is good. But there are rules, which one should follow if he/she is to maintain his/her integrity. Perhaps the most important rule dont wrongfully attribute words and/or ideas to those individuals who oppose your views. This tactic is not only unethical, but it also demonstrates the weakness of your argument. If you think that scout leaders should prostletize, you have the wrong program. Please go find another that more closely suits your proclivity. Now youre just repeating yourself. As to what suits me, I will do as my God tells me. Yet, that does not mean I intend to share Gods Word as a Scout leader or at a Scouting function. This is an erroneous assumption, a leap in logicthat some have grab onto because it suits their position. Can we agree to debate honestly? John-in-KC, You are, of course, correct this topic probably should be under Issues & Politics. However, since you have not contributed a single post to this thread up until now, I wonder what you have at stake here. Your criticism seems out of place. Regardless, I will consider myself duly chastised and try to refrain from using this thread to further expound on my views.

It seems to me that we are in agreement about what is meant by the 12th point of the Law. My objection is not related to how people on this board are interpreting it. It's centered on the language of the 1972 rewrite. If taken literally - by the letter - then we are being asked to respect these beliefs, not just the people who embrace them.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

Bob, My lack of respect for certain religions does not compel me to badger those who posses those beliefs. Even if I were solicited to share my opinion, I would not be inclined to insult or degrade any individual. Instead, I would clearly explain why I disapprove of such a belief. You seem to be making the assumption that if I disrespect a religion, I must also show contempt for its followers. This is simply not so. Why would I hound or insult someone if I thought they were deceived? If anything, I would try to convince such a person to examine the evidence for his or her belief. At least, thats always my intent going into a debate thats centered around religion that I know to be false. Regardless, the point is, I am not compelled to persecute individuals for possessing beliefs that I disrespect.

From 1911 to 1972, the 12th point of the Scout Law read as follows: 12. A SCOUT is REVERENT. He is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties, and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion. In this version, I am called to respect the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion. I agree with this tenant. I respect the right of others to worship however and whomever they are convicted to do so. However, respecting someones right to have their own convictions is not the same as respecting the customs and religions of others. Try this analogy If an adult makes a free-will decision to drink toilet water, I respect his right to do so. Nevertheless, I dont respect this persons idea of drinking water. Similarly, I respect everyones freedom to have a choice in how and who, they worship. Yet, there is only one path that I respect the one that leads to the living water. 9 "Therefore I bring charges against you again," declares the LORD . "And I will bring charges against your children's children. 10 Cross over to the coasts of Kittim [2] and look, send to Kedar [3] and observe closely; see if there has ever been anything like this: 11 Has a nation ever changed its gods? (Yet they are not gods at all.) But my people have exchanged their [4] Glory for worthless idols. 12 Be appalled at this, O heavens, and shudder with great horror," declares the LORD . 13 "My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water. Jeremiah 2:9-13

I ask only that YOU respect the 1.2 billion Hindus in this world, the 1.2 billion Bhuddists in this world... Again, I respect all of these people, but I don't have to respect who or what they worship.

Jason, Your experience and mine are the same. I grew up in a church where Bible reading was not encouraged and church taught doctrine was not always explained or supported by the Word. Even as a young child, these things weighed on me. It's amazing how many churches tailor their teachings to appeal to the masses as opposed to spreading God's truth. The Bible strongly warns that Gods focused wrath awaits those who add or subtract from His Word. Yet, we live in times where this seems to be common. I wish I had responded to Gods call much sooner. I know hes been with me all along. As you seemed to have experienced, I too have heard His voice on numerous occasions throughout my life. But convinced that all of my sins (past, present, and future) were forgiven, regardless of when I turned to follow Him, I continued to embrace my sins. Then one day, a good friend of mine at work challenged me. He asked me why I was confident that I was one of Gods children. He posed the possibility that I wasnt a true believer. Was I reading His Word regularly and praying for His guidance? Was I trying to find His Will for my life? Was I worshipping Him regularly? I had to respond to these questions with the same answer each time - no. Truth be told, while I always thought of myself as a believer, it struck me that I never really sought to live as one. Intellectually, Ive always believed in Christ. Still, I wasnt confident that my self-professed belief penetrated my heart. Was my heart enlivened by sin or by the love of Christ? As my friend once preached you can force yourself to eat beets because you know theyre good for you but only God can make one like beets. In this analogy, if beets represent Christ and His righteousness, then we live a world where everyone is eating ice cream. So what can one do if ones heart is bent towards sin (ice cream) and not Christ (beets)? I wasnt sure. At that time, the thought occurred to me, my faith may be in name only. This prospect scared the Hell out of me. I knew enough to be concerned about my salvation. Also, at about this time, my four-year-old son was coming to my wife and I in tears on a daily basis, for about two weeks straight. My son wanted assurances that we (his family) would all be together in heaven. This was very striking to us since we rarely had conversations about religion with one another much less with our children. In fact, my wife had no idea that I was having conversations about faith in Christ with my friend at work. Furthermore, my sons concern was totally out of the blue. He had not seen any movies or television shows that would have prompted this anxiety. We pointedly asked him why he had such concerns and he could not answer. Instinctively, he seemed to have realized that God may judge us to be unfit for His kingdom. I dont know if you have children but when you do, let me tell you they become a very powerful force in your life. My sons angst became my angst. I was driven to my knees. Today, I am confident that my heart is for Jesus. I stand in awe of Him. The suffering that He willing endured, so that we may know His love, amazes me. It is a love that one cannot help but want to return. I want to glorify His name. Jason Grace and peace to you. I pray that your faith grows continually. If youre ever in Maryland, send me a private message. Maybe we can hook up. I am helping a friend of mine seed a church. Wed love to have you join us one Sunday. For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. Philippians 1:21

Jason, I'm not from OK, but I was wondering when you became a beleiver and how old you are? I didn't get serious about my walk until about 14 years ago. I'm 45 and still struggling to conform to His Will. In reference to another thread - You were right - Reagan was the best president! (and no, I didn't forget about Lincoln or anyone else) By the way, welcome to the family! In Him.

Bob White, I never said the BSA was left leaning - nor do I believe that. I'm just saying that whoever rewrote this particular policy has an agenda that is less than pure. They have more in mind than just the 12th point of the law. So, if you want to call me silly - go ahead, I have no problem with that assertion. But don't add to my words. They are what they are, minus: "the pesky black helicopters", "conspiracies", and "secret alliances". I did not say the BSA was PC because we ask scouts to be respectful of people and their choice of worship." Bob - these words are yours, not mine. As much as I like you (and more often than not, I truly do like you or rather your postings) - you need know something. Your knee-jerk defenses of the BSA regardless of the depth and breadth of criticism put forth, tends to undermine your position. Anyone posting on this forum knows that you are steadfastly on the opposite side of any criticism aimed at the BSA. This is great if youre trying to demonstrate your faithfulness to the organization (an admirable quality by the way), but it does not support your position when it comes to determining truth. With that said, I think we those of us who love the BSA as it has been for the past eight decades or so (i.e., as a values based organization that helps young boys become men), need to be vigilante and stand guard against those who would like to turn the organization into something else. I am merely calling attention to what I believe is, an aberration from the values that were espoused in the bygone days of the BSA. Whenever something changes, we should examine the motives behind that change.

Toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe - NoI dont think I am splitting hairs over phraseology. There is a profound difference in respecting others who have different beliefs, and respecting the beliefs of others. The former is focused on the person. The latter is focused on the philosophy. I suspect that whoever revised the BSA policy or at least whoever composed the written policy knows the difference. What I dont know is this: Is the BSA hierarchy aware that the PC crowd is infiltrating their ranks? Wording like this does not happen by accident. Someone is trying to make a statement and I think it has more to do with liberal philosophy than it does with being reverent.

A Scout is reverent; he is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties and respects the convictions and beliefs of others in matters of custom and religion." Once upon a time, the BSA did not require Scouts and Scouters to respect the beliefs of others rather, they required Scouts and Scouters to respect others who may hold different religious beliefs and/or possess lesser or greater convictions concerning the same. Call me what you wish, but I reserve the right to NOT respect the beliefs of others. Keep in mind that some of these beliefs may include praying to inanimate objects, multiple gods, hierarchical societies, reincarnation, self-evolving into a deity, and animal worship just to name a few. I will never respect these beliefs. I prefer the older interpretation of BSA policy, which required me to respect others (as equals) despite what they believed about God but not the belief itself. Somewhere along the road, within the past decade or so, someone added the language about respecting others beliefs. I dont think this was an appropriate addition.

I definitely enjoyed the Reagan years. He will be missed. I am a little surprised that no one has jumped in yet to drag his memory down. I hope thats an indication of respect, if not admiration. He was a good man. I wish I had met him.

From today's Washington Times U.S. soldiers doing heroic deeds Washington, DC, Jun. 5 (UPI) -- U.S. soldiers are conducting heroic operations in Afghanistan to make the country and the world a safer place, says an Afghan diplomat. In a letter to newspaper editors, Ambassador Sa'id Tayeb Jawad said the U.S.-led coalition forces are helping provide the environment needed for strengthening security and democracy in Afghanistan. Afghanistan, he saisd, had already made significant progress in building democratic institutions and strengthening the rule of law. Said Jawad: "Never before have Afghans been as hopeful as now about their future. Some 2.5 million Afghan refugees have returned home. Thousands of internally displaced persons have gone back to their villages and begun normal life." He said Afghanistan also experienced 30 percent economic growth last year, continuing at 20 percent this year.

I sincerely doubt that Nixon had any such feelings or concerns for what he wrought. Hmmm ... By what magical powers are you able to see the heart of Richard Nixon and judge him? Given the burden of leading the most powerful nation in the world, during times such as these, I wonder how you would fair. How many Americans would be pointing to your bloody hands? Or would they be pointing at the bodies of their countrymen due to your lack of courage to act when it was necessary? Its easy to criticize the Presidents, especially when the high and mighty media always seems to have the solution. I like Bush. I trust Bush. And Im happy hes in office. One of these days, I hope you get to live with the likes of Al Gore as President. Oops, wait a minuteNow, Im just being nasty. I shouldnt wish that on anyone.

Acco40, To some degree, I agree with your assertion. Some bumper stickers and bumper sticker like symbols are very much in your face. For example, I take exception to the Christian fish portrayed with legs. A Christian symbol is being distorted, not just to show a personal belief (i.e., I believe in evolution), but to insult and annoy those who claim the Christian faith. If any other religious symbol (non-Christian) were denigrated in this way, the media would be all over it. No doubt, Mike Wallace would be standing on the doorstep of the manufacturer, if not querying the guy on street, Why do you embrace such a hateful symbol? However, for some reason, perhaps because Christians are supposed to be in the majority (at least as self-proclaimed), the media ignores these kinds of bigoted offenses. SorryI digress. In regard to your example: I'm sure many would find issue with references to the God knot or Bible thumper knot. In the context of the BSA, this assertion falls short of being convincing. You are failing to make a major distinction. Those who would embrace such a symbol belong to the same organization (the BSA); an organization, which not only collectively recognizes God, but one that encourages all of its members to take an oath to God and to embrace their religious faith individually. It seems to me, all that claim an affiliation with the BSA, should welcome the idea of a God knot, for it merely re-enforces a value that they already claim to appreciate. However, contrary to a God knot, the proposed Ho-knot stakes claim to a value that contradicts those embraced and backed by BSA policy. In other words, it would seek to cause disharmony within the organization, as opposed the unity that a God knot might display.

hops_scout, While there are many on this forum who agree with you, I'm afraid that most of the responses directed your way will be from bitter liberals who have yet to get over the last election. These folks are politically motivated and spend the better part of the day inventing new ways to demean our president. They superciliously stake claim to knowledge about foreign powers, military capabilities, and geopolitical events - as if theyre 70-year-old men with a life time of experience and training that includes the State Department, the CIA, and NSA combined. Trust me - they dont know what theyre talking about. Dont let them con you. We are in the middle of a very serious war, one that needs to be fought now - not later, and we are being led by a man whos well informed, intelligent, of good moral character, and loves both God and country. Don't be discouraged. In the end, truth will prevail.

If you make moral decisions based on the outcome of a 7/10 split, then yes - bowling is a religion. I'll stick with sound logic...hide behind a dictionary if you must, but the truth is plain to see. If you're conducting your life according to a belief system (i.e., there is no God), then for all practical purposes - you're subscribing to a religion. It may be a Godless religion, but it's a religion.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

Merlyn, From Merriam-Webster: Religion 1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance 2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith The last three definitions offered, apply to atheism as much as any other religious faith. If nothing else - even if we cannot agree on the definition of religion, atheism requires as much faith as any religious belief system. From American Heritage: Faith 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See synonyms at belief. , trust. And if you only believe in the definitions offered by select dictionaries, I wouldnt read Merriam Webster. They dont portray atheists in a good lightunless you like being called wicked. From Merriam-Webster: Atheism 1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS So, stay with your dictionary as much as you want, it is what it is Youre not fooling anyone. You are determined to live life as if there is no God that is your worldview. Whether you want to admit to it or not, it greatly affects the decisions you make and the values you embrace. Religion and/or the belief in God have the same ultimate affect it is the foundation for a worldview, which ultimately drives the decisions and values that one embraces. Whether we agree to call atheism a religion or not is a moot point. The real issue is they both represent worldviews. Furthermore, since atheists cannot prove that God does not exist, both require acts of faith. In fact, I would argue that atheism requires more faith. ScouterPaul, In regard to ones personal right to believe as he chooses the answer is YES, I think all faiths are valid in that sense. In regard to the idea that God will accept everyone into His kingdom regardless of what one might believe, the answer is NO - I dont think all faiths are valid. If youre asking me Do I believe that the God of my faith is the true God? The answer is YES Why else would I embrace a faith? I hope youre not implying that I should accept the beliefs of all people as being valid. That simply makes no sense. Besides the fact that many, if not most religions, are contradictory of one another, my God does not allow me to recognize any other gods. To do so, is blasphemy.

Merlyn, As to what constitutes a religion, any basis for a worldview drives one's religion. My basis is Christ. Your's appears to be Darwin. But any monkey knows that...right? ;-)(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

Atheism is a religion. Its a religion, which denies the existence of absolute moral truths and allows one to function as he pleases without guilt or concern for condemnation. After all, if there is no God, then whos to say what is right or wrong. If you are thinking this cant be so because Id trust my atheist buddy or relative to raise my kids if I were to perish in a car accident tomorrow - then youve missed the point. The fact is, if one embraces atheism as truth, then he/she has a belief system that not only denies the existence of God, but the source for any fixed definition of good and/or evil. Ironically, those who prefer to close their eyes to God often claim science to be their champion. In order to re-enforce their self-deception and to gain the hearts of confused minds, they proclaim evolution as evidence that Gods handiwork is an allusion. This is incredibly amusing, if not outright hypocritical, because evolution does not have a factual basis. In truth, many of the scientific communitys best and brightest concede that evolution does not even qualify as a theory. In the end, its merely a worldview a religion, if you will that permits its followers to embrace whatever feels good. Like many self-centered special interest groups, such as the homosexual activists, abortion rights advocates, the feminist movement, and others, when they are not greeted with open arms they claim bigotry. Again more irony and hypocrisy actually, this is simply a mean spirited response to slander and discredit those who have an opinion different then theirs. Not surprisingly, the Democratic Party has extended their umbrella to include these special interest groups. I say not surprisingly because most liberals embrace a philosophy that either denies the existence of God or diminishes his righteousness, and supports a worldview that mankind can ultimately create a harmonious world regardless of personal morality. Of course, they are wrong on at least three accounts: 1) God does exist and His righteous should not be denied. 2) Morality is not personal; its God defined. 3) Mankind is not capable of creating anything that is truly good without God. By definition, God is not just a superior being, but rather He is the Supreme Being. He is unlimited in His powers, knowledge, and wisdom. Why do human beings, one of His creations, think that they can comprehend his ways? Why do they run from any understand of God that contradicts their worldview and/or their preferred way of living? "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8&9 We can debate this forever, but Im convinced that most folks know the truth. They either dont want to face it; or worse, theyre intent on dragging others into a pit with them.

I was amused by their efforts to match wits with the conservative commentators. Apparently, most others were not. In the long run, this might prove to be a blessing for liberals. After all, if they were still on the air, more people would realize the foolishness of their reasoning (or lack thereof).