ps56k

Just looked over on the OA site -

BTW - you will need your OA handbook and page 10 text to gain entrance....(This message has been edited by ps56k)

Just found out that our Jamboree 2005 group will be making their own patrol emblems to match their patrol flag... Wonder if anyone has actually tried making their own, and the different techniques you have used. Was thinking of getting the "blanks" and then using the inkjet transfer paper to iron on the printed graphic. Not sure how it will hold up on the rough blank emblem material vs a nice smooth cotton shirt.

I have my various patches in those Ultra Poly plastic pages used for trading cards, etc... and have them in a large 3-ring binder.

Now the growing problem.

The binder is becoming a pain. I even went to a 2" D-ring version, but it still swells in the middle like a balloon.

I will probably now go to a 3" D-ring binder....

What have you started using for storing your 3-ring patch pages ??

Here is an email we just received from our Lodge Advisor... It's interesting in light of our recent thread on the "50% election" subject.

Also - just to toss in another stirring of the pot, I find it amazing that the BSA is one of the few organizations where you are never a recognized alumni (except for Eagle Scout COH) unless you are "paying dues". Can't wear the flap unless you pay dues, and can't wear the sash unless you pay dues, in fact you can't reflect on your days in scouting by wearing an old uniform unless you are currently registered.

Good thing we don't see that on Veterans Day, or at college campuses...

--- Anyway - here's the info from our Lodge Advisor on the status of Brotherhood numbers.

-----------

Fellow Arrowmen,

We are nearing the end of 2004 and we have made almost every goal for Quality Lodge except for one major goal...... BROTHERHOOD CONVERSION

We need approximately 50 more Brotherhood conversions before December 1st. This should be a very easy task since we have 2,052 Ordeal members in the Lodge that have yet to become a Brotherhood honor member. Many of these Arrowmen also wear our Lodge flap without paying any dues.

There are 445 current dues paying Ordeal members of the Lodge that are eligible today to become a Brotherhood honor member. We only need 50 more conversions! This should be extremely easy.

Failure of the Lodge to achieve Quality Lodge will reflect poorly on everyone. We are to close to achieving this goal - let's make it happen.

OT - (off topic) as Bob said - "I have been over ruled several times within the BOR for not wanting to advance a Scout to Star & Life that has just been a paper Asst PL,.. And they were correct to over-rule you as being an active APL is not a requirement for rank. ---

Not sure how you read my msg, or the reply.... The Star & Life scouts were Asst Patrol Leaders, (not ASPL) which are not listed as valid "troop level" positions for Star & Life advancement. I brought this up at the BOR, and was basiclly lectured about passing them anyway... (end of off topic)

The thread has strayed a bit from the initial discussion of how easily we now make it to "elect" candidates vs the "old days".

This then crosses over into the discussion thread about what is considered "active" within a troop for advancement (or OA) for that matter. I have been over ruled several times within the BOR for not wanting to advance a Scout to Star & Life that has just been a paper Asst PL, not attend meeting, etc - vs having a troop level postion.

Same with OA election - we elected 6 Scouts, and 4 of them were not even at the election !

EOF -

let me think out loud on the camping reqs...

OK - only one week of summer camp, since they all like to go to that, which counts for say 6 out of 15 days... leaving 9 days of camping over 2 yrs. Each weekend trip might count for 2 nights/2 days - so we need 5 weekend trips over 2 years. Also, how does Philmont or BWC count ? Since they are not really "resident" (setup in 1 place) kind of camps, can they be used in addition to traditional summer camp ? In summary, it might not be too difficult to accummulate the req camping days/nights, and yet never come to any troop meetings, never attend a COH or service project, and never be there to offer "cheerful service".

you're right - I'm not sure they all met the total camping reqs as I have them written down...

--

To become a member, a youth must be a registered member of a Boy Scout troop or Varsity Scout team and hold First Class rank. The youth must have experienced 15 days and nights of Boy Scout camping during the 2-year period prior to the election. The 15 days and nights must include one, but no more than one, long-term camp consisting of 6 consecutive days and 5 nights of resident camping, approved and under the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America. The balance of the camping must be overnight, weekend, or other short-term camps.

--

They usually go to Summer Camp - but do not usually come to the weekend events. So, I'd be hard pressed to find the 15 nights total when only 1 week of summer camp would count.

How elected without camping - well, not really, but they are in that over 14yr group - closer to 16, and have racked up all their rank reqs, for First Class, Star, or Life, but don't come to campouts, meetings, events, COH, etc - but have met the "reqs" for OA - so some scouts just fill in the ballot with these names, since they are "eligible" and there is room on the ballot.

I just checked with our Lodge Adv about our upcoming fall fellowship and ordeal.... Our troop "elected" 6 scouts, one of which was my son, who is also the SPL. Several of the other elected scouts are in that over 14yrs group and don't really attend meetings and campouts - but were basically "eligible". I have another thread on what it means to be "active" in a troop.

Anyway - out of the 6 scouts elected, only 1 has registered for the fall fellowship ordeal... and the other 5 have not registered yet, nor completed any ordeal since elected in feb.

So - even if they do finally get registered and attend the ordeal, what kind of participation would you expect from them ?

Would it not be better to just have - like the old days - a quota for the election, and gain OA members that really would be helpful, vs inflating the "membership" numbers and only getting the same low number of helpful arrowmen...

I think you are confusing "eligible" with "qualified", and "deserving". If we have 12 Scouts that are qualified/eligible, and 5 of them are really the top dogs that will get elected, since the Troop has no limit on the names they can select from the ballot, the scouts can go and check off lots of other names... maybe even all of them! Hey, it may not be what you expected of them, but heck, they are kids - so a few more get elected mostly by accident. Now you have 5 scouts that will probably attend and participate, because that is what they do in the Troop, and then another 3 or 4 "elected" by accident that will not. We have had several scouts elected to the OA who have not even been to a troop meeting in several months. It just seems that after awhile, everyone will be wearing a flap, and yet there is no one at the chapter/lodge meetings and events.

yeah - interesting ratio of those Called Out vs the attendance and participation within the chapter/lodge... So - if OA attendance is low, just increase the number getting elected, and hopefully then the number of OA in attendance will increase - hmmm - did it work ?

Here is some info on one of the oldest Boy Scout camps that is still barely hanging on -

Owasippe - Chicago Area Council - 94th year -

---

THE SCARLET SASSAFRAS...Fall Colors Blast

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

October 7, 2004

"Owasippe's Unwebsite & E-zine", http://scarlet_sassafras.tripod.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

S-A-V-E O-W-A-S-I-P-P-E I-N-T-A-C-T F-O-R A-L-L

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Opening Quote: "We learned to be patient observers like the owl. We learned cleverness from the crow, and courage from the jay, who will attack an owl ten times its size to drive it off its territory. But above all of them ranked the chickadee because of its indomitable spirit." Tom Brown, Jr., The Tracker

==================================================================

Summer Camp To Run At Owasippe In 2005, It's 94th Anniversary Year

==================================================================

As in 2004, Owasippe will operate section camps at Blackhawk and Wolverine, its Crown High Adventure Base, the Reneker Scouter Family Resort, and other outpost programs. Fees are to be set by October 15th. Campsite and Reneker cabin reservations are now being accepted at the CAC Camping Service department. For reservation forms and program specifics, go to the Chicago Area Council website section on camping... http://www.chicagobsa.org/Owasippe.htm

Last summer saw a marked increase in attendance over 2003 and reservations for summer camp are ahead of schedule. Estimates have put this summer's attendance in excess of 3,800 youth and adults which is roughly 200 more than in 2003. Out-of-council usage and demand appears to be escalating and reportedly is outpacing that of CAC's.

A Venture Crew summer program at Owasippe has also been submitted for consideration to the council and it is currently under review. More detailed program info will come as it is finalized and available. Scout and Webelos program options are also under scrutiny.

Summer camp staff applications are now being accepted and those forms are available via The Scarlet Sassafras "Campstaff and More" or directly from CAC's website at http://www.chicagobsa.org/Owasippe.htm.

Click onto the below site links for more useful information on Owasippe 2004/2005...

"Owasippe Overview"... http://scarlet_sassafras.tripod.com/id2.html

I seem to vaguely recall, as a Scout, wearing my OA sash folded and tucked/looped over my belt - as a sign of being in the OA... Can't remember if the Brotherhood bars would show, but the Vigil triangle would be there in the center. Not really official...

tnx - I thought it seemed odd. And, each vote can be cast for any number of candidates.. right ?

So, if you have say 12 eligible Scouts, and the Troop size is maybe 50 -

1 - the meeting/election has to have 25 scouts.

2 - 12 scouts may be elected

The Troop is told to ??? "vote for all you think are qualified" ? So, all 25 present could each write down the names of all 12 eligible scouts - and they all would be "elected" -

And exactly what does this accomplish for the OA; increase their membership, but dilute the actual meaning of the Order.... nice change -

yeah - my Tap Out at Owasippe summer camp in the 1960's was grand. I didn't know, but had a pretty good idea...

The campfire was down at the beach. A fire was viewed out on the lake, and it drew closer. It was visitors with 3 canoes & torches. They landed, and then circled our campfire. As they circled, a telltale hand was placed over our head. They stopped, turned and pulled us out. Then tapped - it was AWESOME -

We had a Council "call out" at a local county fair grounds... You were invited to attend, so you knew - duh. The ceremonial team did a good job of telling the story, etc. They called your name from a list of about 150 - duh. You went down from the grandstand and stood in a huge circle around the fire...and then after all names were called, we all went home - duh. Real non-impressive. My son couldn't understand what the big deal was...

I was in the OA as a scout, chapter chief, newsletter editor, summer camp coord, etc... and also awarded Vigil when I turned 21. I was proud, and it meant something to be part of the OA.

What does it mean today ?

I don't see our OA chapter/lodge at the District and Council events. I don't recall the old election reqs, but today, it seems that basically 50% of the Troop can be elected into the OA - for what ?? It's almost guaranteed that all First Class scouts will eventually get elected.

Must be another dumbing down of Scouting, so no Scout's self-esteem will be impacted -

tnx for the discussion....

BTW -

(1) Is there a way to reply with quoting a previous msg text ? (other than manual cut/paste)

(2) Is there a way to reply to a previous msg, or are all the posts just added/appended at the end, which makes it hard to read & reply to specific intervening posts ?

To the comment about 14yr old vs your 16yr old group. It basically comes from the previous lure of the Crew.... come join us for more fun and frolic, with none of that lame Scouting stuff -

So - once they hit 14, they jumped over to the Crew and are never seen again at a Troop meeting.

They may chase a MB at summer camp, or when offered as a group at a Troop meeting or a District MB Clinic, but that's about it.

Also - the Crew has no Committe or any other real supporting structure. I believe it was established to go on certain "official" trips that were not sanctioned by the Venture Patrol guidelines. So, they are "dual registered" and we see a Crew member every so often for Scouting advancement BOR... having never seen them for several years.

That's the situation - they reach First Class, and then 14, and maybe H.S. at the same time, and then they are Scouting ghosts...

Just for a point - I don't believe that any of the BSA materials, handbooks, or whatever specifically define what is to be considered as "active" - hence it would be quoted or directly referenced... Nor do the pubs actually give the Troop, Crew, District, or Council the "right" to define what constitutes "active"... again, else that section would be directly referenced.

not sure if there is a way to copy/paste a msg for reply - did it manually -

tnx for the long reply.... it is a tough situation that has been evolving for several years, and we came into it in the middle. There is no "template" for us to follow, as these The Troop has drifted as a group for the last 6 years or so since the last quality SM. Each SM takes the role for about 2 yrs. So, we are on our 3rd SM who has been trying to turn things around. I can see the "progression" from a Scouting patrol, to a Venture patrol, to a Venture Crew - but obviously, that did not satisfy the "hunger" they were looking for...

They have gone river rafting, up to BWC canoeing, on an inland sailboat, skiing, baseball games, basketball games, etc. But none want to be a leader in the troop, as that requires more time for PLC meetings, and not having fun on campouts. Out of the 25 or so dual registered in the Troop & Crew, maybe 25% attend... So, that is 25% attendance in the Crew activities, and maybe 10% attendance in various Troop activities. Now the 14yr old scouts don't see their older role models around, so they will tend to follow in their footsteps... and this is the chain of events we are trying to break. Otherwise, you don't really have an ongoing Troop, but rather a group of Webelos 3rd & 4th yr scouts.

I'm sure everyone has this problem....

What to do with the older (14+) scouts.

Very few want to act as SPL, guides, or mentors to the younger scouts - it's too much work and they would rather just hang out. They don't attend Troop meetings, rarely go on campouts, and if they do - they don't help. They may go to summer camp to get some MB's, but that's it.

So - the previous Troop staff created a Venture Patrol to go off and do "exciting things"... but that was not enough, so they created a Crew... and now there are maybe 25 listed scouts in the Crew and maybe 3 show up to the monthly Crew meetings. They plan trips, rafting, skiing, sporting events trips, etc - but mostly get cancelled - so I guess the "exciting stuff" wasn't really the answer.

This is a copy of a thread from back in January -

I'm just disappointed in the way the BSA has changed things

in Scouting - in the current Handbook, the MB's, and the program.

It seems that things have drifted from a center focus,

and they are trying to "appeal" or "react" to pressures...

But that's any ongoing different thread & topic

My basic disappointment with the "new & improved" Camping MB,

is that the "extra" reqs of #9 have nothing to do with

enhancing the "skills" of Camping.

That is why the old reqs looked fine to me

This would be my basic sanity check for any req - or classroom

"how does it enhance your knowledge of the MB subject"

------>>> old thread snip

> > > 9. Camp a total of at least 20 days and 20 nights and do TWO of the

> > following,

> > (1) Hike up a mountain, gaining at 2,000 vertical feet.

> not many "mountains" in the midwest

We don't have many either in the East but I wouldn't want to keep people

with mountains in their back yard from using them? You live in an ideal

area for a canoe trip or bike trip.

> > (2) Backpack for at least four hours.

ok - at least it's related to Camping

> > (3) Take a bike hike of at least 15 miles or at least four hours.

> sorry, usually don't carry a bike on a camping trip

This is camping, not backpacking. Bike hikes are a lot more fun if you

make them into overnighters.

> > (4) Plan and carry out a float trip of at least four hours.

> that kinda makes it a canoe trip

So what is wrong with canoe trips. Camping on overnight canoe trips is

a lot of fun. A lot more fun than just a campout or just a canoe trip.

> > (5) Rappel down a rappel route of 30 feet or more.

> that kinda makes it a climbing event

Rapelling is just the opposite of climbing. It is a great activity on a

campout. We offer the cope course during the winter at our Council camp.

> > (6) Perform a conservation project.

> ok

The BSA is just trying to encourage more opportunity. They don't want

to only consider a walk in the woods. Actually rather than opening up

"other areas" they are restricting it to just these 6 areas. There are

a lot more that could be put on the list. Remember you only have to do

two. The significance is that you have to do more than one.

I was going back over a couple of threads from this year, and just wanted to make sure I have the consensus....

Active - for rank advancement - "Be active in Troop or Patrol for 6 months"....

What does that mean ?

Just registered as a Scout, or

Registered, and some Troop-level set of requirements such as attendance to meetings, campouts, etc...

BOR - I seem to recall that parents are enlisted to help serve on the

BOR,

yet the doc indicates the BOR should consist of Committee Members

(except for the SM & ASMs)

just to let anyone know, there is another whole world out there of about 40,000 discussion groups - called newsgroups. You can see some of the activity by searching Google "Groups". There are several newsgroups for Scouting, such as -

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=lang_en&group=rec.scouting.usa