ps56k

tnx all for the great info. I've been passing it along to the Crew leader, as our son will miss Philmont, as he will be at Jamboree.

Here is another posting, from the scouting newsgroup -

---

>Here's some advice that I've posted here a couple of times in the past. Looking it over it all still looks valid so I'm happy to share it again:

>Far and away the best single thing you can do to enjoy your Philmont trek is to get in shape. Exercise. Walk, run, climb stairs, hike with a heavy pack. Start a good two or three months before your trek.

>This is equally important for Scouts and adults.

>Lose weight. Would you rather carry a 50-lb pack or a 60-lb pack? Well, losing 10 lbs. from your body has the same effect as losing 10lb. from your pack, and it's probably a lot easier.

>Get some backpacking experience. Our Troop backpacks regularly -- half a dozen times a year or so -- and we learned some things at Philmont that were new to us. I can't imagine going out there with no backpacking experience.

>Navigation at Philmont is generally not difficult. Trails are few and usually marked at intersections. But once or twice on your trek you will encounter an unmarked or poorly marked trail, and knowing how to read a map and use a compass might just save you an hour or two of hiking down the wrong trail and hiking back when you realize you're in the wrong place. So by all means brush up on your map and compass skills.

>Take a minimal amount of clothes. After a couple of days on the trail you get used to being dirty, so abandon all hope of staying clean and changing frequently. Two T-shirts, two or three pair of underpants, two or three sets of socks. One or two pair of shorts, one pair of

>long pants. Something like a fleece for warmth.

>Definitely bring good rain gear, because you will get rained on repeatedly.

>Plan on carrying lots of water. Three quarts or more. Leave your water filter home and plan on using the Philmont-provided iodine for purification. It's impractical to pump as much water as your crew will need in a day. The recommendation is 8 to 12 quarts per person

>per day. That's upwards of 24 gallons for a crew of 12. And be aware that water weighs about 2 lb. per quart so you'll be carrying around 6lb. worth.

>If your Troop has decent back-packable tents bring them. We did not use the Philmont tents, but we saw them. They looked big and heavy, were not freestanding and took an awful lot of rope and stakes to put up.

>Carry two stoves, no more. You actually need only one even for a crew of 12, but having a backup is nice. Two 22-oz fuel bottles will be enough to keep you going between commissary stops. You cannot take

>stoves or fuel bottles, even empty, on a plane. So if you're flying, plan to ship your stoves and fuel bottles ahead to Philmont and they'll be waiting for you at the Post Office. Be careful when picking

>up fuel at Philmont. At one point we were given kerosene or maybe a white-gas and kerosene mix instead of white gas. It clogged our stove pretty badly. Fortunately we had another bottle of pure white gas and we were able to get by on that till the next fuel pickup.

>Heed your Ranger's advice. Those guys (and gals) know what they're talking about, if our Ranger was any example.

>Dividing up food to be carried is a much bigger deal than you might think. When you pick up 4 days' food for a 12-man crew, you'll be getting around 40-50 packages of food. Every night it must all come out of the packs and go into the bear bags. And every morning it must all go back into the packs again. Making all of this happen without taking half an hour every morning takes some planning. Take a Magic Marker with you and mark each food package with the name of the person who is to carry it. It makes the morning pack-up go a lot faster.

>How will the crew handle the chores -- bear bagging, water, tarp setup, cooking, cleanup? We organized our crew into four teams of three: cooking, cleanup, water and aerials (tarps and bear bags).

>Scouts and adults all shared the work. Teams rotated jobs each day. It worked pretty well.

>Philmont will issue you bear bags but all bear bags look alike. Devise a way of tagging them so that you can tell your crew's bags from another crew's when you must share a bear cable, and so you can

>identify the "personals" bag from the food bags. One approach is to take your own, color-coded bags. Another is to tie something like a colored strip of cloth onto your bags.

>Everybody wants a Philmont tooled-leather belt. But they cost, with the buckle, around $40. Warn your crew that they'll need to have this much with them so no one will be disappointed.

>

tnx - I'll have to go back and look at the Philmont and 928 cookbooks I have printed out and spiral bound...

I'm really looking for some detailed computer forms to help the Scouts with the mechanics, and logistics of the thinking, planning, shopping list, and equipmnet required vs the actual cookbooks.

We have been trying a Nextel i860 camera phone with some new GPS software from Trimble. It has a PC planner, a GPS firmware download to the Nextel phone, and an online Web trip viewer.

It might be interested to journal a camping trip this way.

Here is a link a friend sent from Arizona..

To view this trip simply go to the following url: http://www.trimbleoutdoors.com/TripViewFrameSetGuest.asp?tripid=2192

Click on camera icons on the map to view pictures taken at those locations.

Here is a true adventure - Dale and I saw mother nature's fury in the Superstitions Saturday like you would not believe.

Rich

I tried doing a SEARCH for this, but it seemed to just show me all the recent postings....

I'm looking for some examples of what you use for campout menu planning, food estimating & buying, and also equipment needed.

ie - making pizza in dutch oven

1. food items needed

2. quantities (based on attendance)

3. equipment required (2 dutch ovens, 20lb charcoal, lid lifter)

some of these folks have been up to BWCA...

--

Didn't realize the altittude was that big a deal.

I do recall being out at Pikes Peak and Mt. Rainer,

and I didn't feel anything, but some others did feel it...

What about the actual paths or trails between camps ?

Is this a forced march along an easily followed set of trails,

or do you really need to drag out the map & compass

to figure out where the heck you are, and where you are going ? Are more crews using GPS's (along with a backup compass).

Just trying to decide what our folks really need in this area.

--

Also, what about menus for Philmont.

I've had an old PDF list from 1991.

Is this old list still the kinds of meals supplied?

Are they the usual dyhaydrated meals, or what ?

Just trying to replicate the meals so the Scouts

know how and what to expect.

tnx for the update and current info -

We have a single crew going to Philmont this summer.

I was wondering about the prep for this trek

vs what might have been experienced at BWCA

or other Venture Crew activities.

I've already had a thread on the physical vs teamwork aspect.

Some of the skills up at BWCA involved

backpacking types of food, cooking, & travel,

but the big difference being having the canoe vs just your back.

Also - what about map & compass skills -

Is it different nav'ing out at Philmont vs up at BWCA

(ignoring the mag declination topic for now)

Our crew has been out doing long hikes with their backpacks,

but only on our flatland nature trails and other crushed

or well travelled paths... just for endurance.

On the next couple of weekend campouts,

we will develop their backpacking, cooking & cleanup skills,

along with some map & compass.

Any other comments or suggestions

about a specific set of skills or activities to achieve

would be appreciated.

I've been wrestling with all of this for the past couple of years - and postings - about what is "active" and how scouts disappear and then re-appear years later for their Life rank BOR and even Eagle BOR. I've pretty much backed off the loosing fight within our Troop - one that I'll never win. However, as our own family will be facing the transition of a Scout into HS, it will be interesting to see things from the other side of the fence and having a 14-15yr old Life Scout with other activities.

It is interesting to note that our son was the SPL and is now the ASPL, trying to steer the troop into a boy-led direction. Taught backpacking stoves & trail cooking, firebuilding, etc. Not many other supporting parties - adult & scouts - too much of the old fun-club culture still remains, along with the Crew canabalizing the 14+ Scouts for their "trips". (read another thread)

Last year, three scouts attended Council JLTC - and our son was asked back for staff... He is interested in JLTC because it's with other Scouts that know and want to do Scouting stuff, and that now eats up a couple of campout weekends. Also, he is going to the Jamboree, and that eats up another weekend along with missing our Philmont trip & usual summer camp. So, he attends just about every meeting, also attends the PLC meetings, and runs the troop JLTC.... plus being a part of Council JLTC/NYLT and the Jamboree group - but, is he active on the troop campouts ??? not as much - because he is at other Scouting events, and gets tired of being the only older scout with skill knowledge & motivation.

Plus - he also has other outside activities - winter & summer swim teams, soccer, and track.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out next fall, and there after...

I've been wrestling with all of this for the past couple of years - and postings - about what is "active" and how scouts disappear and then re-appear years later for their Life rank BOR and even Eagle BOR. I've pretty much backed off the loosing fight within our Troop - one that I'll never win. However, as our own family will be facing the transition of a Scout into HS, it will be interesting to see things from the other side of the fence and having a 14-15yr old Life Scout with other activities.

It is interesting to note that our son was the SPL and is now the ASPL, trying to steer the troop into a boy-led direction. Taught backpacking stoves & trail cooking, firebuilding, etc. Not many other supporting parties - adult & scouts - too much of the old fun-club culture still remains, along with the Crew canabalizing the 14+ Scouts for their "trips". (read another thread)

Last year, three scouts attended Council JLTC - and our son was asked back for staff... He is interested in JLTC because it's with other Scouts that know and want to do Scouting stuff, and that now eats up a couple of campout weekends. Also, he is going to the Jamboree, and that eats up another weekend along with missing our Philmont trip & usual summer camp. So, he attends just about every meeting, also attends the PLC meetings, and runs the troop JLTC.... plus being a part of Council JLTC/NYLT and the Jamboree group - but, is he active on the troop campouts ??? not as much - because he is at other Scouting events, and gets tired of being the only older scout with skill knowledge & motivation.

Plus - he also has other outside activities - winter & summer swim teams, soccer, and track.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out next fall, and there after...

Happen to tag along with our OA Election Team visting a Troop. It was embarrassing by the lack of Troop attendance. Troop indicates they have over 42 Scouts, but only a handful showed up. Last year it took 3 visits to get to a voting quorum. Most of the Scouts listed this year were all "first years" with just achieving First Class last month. And yup, they went to summer camp, and had their total 15 days/nights camping... so I guess they were eligible. But, I can't see these 12yr old Scouts actually participating in the "service" and "work" performed by the OA at various Council facilities.

going over the election reqs,

I was wondering how to exactly count a typical weekend campout -

Friday night - arrive at campsite & setup, sleep.

Saturday - daylong activities & sleep.

Sunday - have breakfast, packup, & leave before noon.

We have in our Troop Guide this obscure rule for adults & uniforms. I think it stems from the fact that we have a SM and lots of ASMs, along with other major committee members, BUT also have just a lot of "registered" adults for drivers, trailer hitches & campout helpers.

How do we (you) address the issue of a "uniformed adult leader" vs someone that just had to register to pass the BSA screening, and therefore is officially on the committee, or a MB counselor, etc.

It's also ironic that some of the ASMs wearing uniforms are not "trained", and some are old legacy members that rarely come to meetings or events.

Hey - I always thought that anyone that was "registered" could shell out the dollars and wear the uniform...

----

Following text snip'd from Troop Guide - -

This person is authorised to wear a uniform because he/she has been registered with and trained as a SM or ASM by the District or Council. Individuals currently serving as SM & ASMs should complete New Leader Essentials within 3 months of registration and Leader Specific Training within 6 months of registration.

(This message has been edited by ps56k)(This message has been edited by ps56k)

just a basic question - without grabbing our 3-ring binders of Scouting stuff -

What's the difference in concept between a normal Troop patrol, a Venture Patrol within the Troop, and the external Crew ?

Ignoring the "age" and potential girl thing, what else do these alternative Scouting venues technically offer to the 14+ Scout that is not available as part of the normal Troop within a "senior" patrol.

I read thru this topic, and it all seems very familiar. We had the older scouts, and formed a Venture Patrol... but that was not enough stimulation, so a Crew was formed... and yes they plan rafting trips, ski trips, canoe trips, nights at sports teams, comedy clubs, etc - and how many actually attend from a group of about 18 - about 3 - the 3 "families" that cannabalized the Troop of all the older scouts to form the Patrol, and then the Crew and now have their little social club.

So - I'm really down on Crews that skim the older scouts and leave the Troop with nothing above 14yr olds.

As far as separate programs at meetings, yeah it looks good on paper - but what do they actually do at a meeting. If they "wanted" to be leaders, or part of the Scouting program, then they would participate as a Troop member. Sure we have the usual breakout for skills, but what does a 16yr old Life scout need in skills... so it becomes time to just goof around, get loud, and eventually get thrown out of the meeting.

There is very little trickle down leadership, and more and more of "what's in it for me"...

Wonder what your calendar looks like for new scouts, PLC elections & JLT.

We have new scouts join in Jan/Feb,

with an election every 6 months for SPL, etc.

The new Patrols rotate PL more often.

Looking at last year's calendar, we had elections in March and September. The March PLC carry over into running summer camp, and the September PLC handles the new incoming scouts program.

The JLT is held in Jan/Feb after the new Scouts have joined.

tnx for the posting, and sorry if it appears as a dup....

I guess I was trying to focus the thread on the "why we do this" vs the "this is what we do". Our Troop currently has JLT as a pre-req for getting elected, which seems tough to handle.

I like your idea of splitting it up, and "before" just covering something like an intro: teamwork, leadership, patrol method,

along with each POR and what it involves.

Then after they are elected, re-visiting the subjects with more focus.

Couldn't figure out how to spin a new thread, and yet anchor it with an article from the spawning thread.... is this possible ???

Anyway - Would like to followup on my original msg, with the focus on the "before vs after" and anchor it with Eagle KY's msg -

----

My concern is inviting everyone to JLT makes it just another meeting with those that really want to be there, and those that show up, but are not really interested.

I'd suggest having the training AFTER the election, and then train the Scouts that were elected and really want to run the troop.

And yet, our Troop makes JLT a prereq for serving in a POR.

---- Eagle KY ----

However, since we're here, I'll go ahead and address your question. We do JLTC once a year after the fall elections (we also have elections in the spring).

1. All green bars are expected to attend. That's set out before they run for office that they will agree, if elected, to participate in JLT.

2. We also strongly encourage any other person who holds a position and has not previously attended JLT to attend.

3. Third, we encourage anyone else who hasn't attended JLT to attend.

4. Anyone else (that would be someone holding a position and has previously attended JTL) is also welcome.

We try to limit it to around 10-12 people. Our troop is still small, so that's doable. I also try to get an adult who hasn't seen it before to attend. This helps them get an appreciation of the boy-led program as well.

Happen to run across this thread from the original - makes for great reading....

BTW - is there anyway to post a reply into the middle of a thread, or is everything always appended at the end ?

Here's another side issue concerning Troop level JLT - maybe a different thread...

Who should attend Troop level JLT, and when should it be offered..

We have had it offered to anyone that wanted to come, and basically had most of the troop attend. I'm not sure what it really accomplished.

I'm starting to lean toward having it AFTER an election, and then only for the Troop level & Patrol level leadership positions.

What are your thoughts ?

tnx -

Just wondering as a comparison, getting a group ready for a trip north to BWCA vs getting ready for a trip out west to Philmont. I don't recall any special readiness for the BWCA trip, they just showed up.

snip'd from a newsgroup thread -

--

We have a group going to Philmont in 2005....

They are the older scouts that have mostly split from the Troop, setup a Crew - but don't really attend to those meetings & events either...

We are concerned about their lack of acquired camping skills, along with not working together as a team.

Anyway - wonder if it makes any sense to form a "Philmont Patrol" and have those Scouts start doing things as a special group

vs just being part of the normal Troop - on weekend outings -(if they attend)

ie - have to plan & backpack their food, cooking, maybe even tents vs having other items avail - coolers, car trunk, trailer, etc

Just wondering what others have done for first timers ? We have had various hikes from 5 to 10 miles and they were supposed to bring a backpack with 20lbs...

Have not heard yet who has showed up or how it went, but not much in the camping area as a team, just a hike on a crushed gravel path.

-----------

It was a long time ago - 1976 to be precise...

An other adult and I took 10 scouts - 2 were my sons and 2 were his - all older and most were Eagles. We did no training at all. My oldest son was elected Crew Chief.

We went in a Winnebago and took 3 full weeks. We got AAA tour books and our planning consisted of what we wanted to see and where we

wanted to stop. We stopped at 6 Flags and the Indian Village in OK then turned south thru TX to Albuquerque. It's 5,000 feet and I thought we should get acclimated to the altitude. We spent the night in Cimmaron to wash clothes, swim, etc., before we went to Philmont.

No blisters, no scratches and all except the adults could have jogged the trails.

My grandsons went separately 22 and 24 years later. The troop they were in trained by walking up and down stairs with 40# packs. The

leaders decided only one boy couldn't make the trip. One grandson was Crew Chief, the other was not. They had pack inspection at least twice before the trip. They were quick out and quick back.

I think your answer depends on the caliber of boys making the trip. If you have well-conditioned senior boys, just make sure they know how to read topo maps and build a fire and set up camp in the rain. If they are not I think you should have concentrated training.

As far as a separate patrol, my sons troop put senior boys in a separate patrol as far back as 1970. They usually had separate campouts but a few always went with the troop also. All the participants with our group were in the senior patrol except for 2 scouts from other towns who knew through OA that we were going and asked to be included.

----------------

Gee, that sounds a lot like what a Crew should be planning and doing.

----------------

Having returned from Philmont as advisor for a Council trek in July, I have a question. Did you unit get a trek reservation or are you part

of a Council contingent?

If you are part of a contingent, the trek leader - crew advisor should have a plan for preparation already in place. If this is a unit trek, much of the information you would find useful is on the Website below.

http://www.lns.cornell.edu/~seb/philmont.html

One resource that consolidates this information is the "Philmont Advisor's Guide" by Coop Wright and Wally Feurtado. Coop is and has been crew advisor for a number of years.

Quoted from the above site:

"The "Philmont Advisor's Guide" published by Cooper Wright and Wally Feurtado is an independent publication containing some of the

information in the "official" guides, and a lot of information gleaned from years (literally) of experience taking crews to Philmont by the authors with ideas and updates from other Philmont advisors. It might be compared to one of the "... for Dummies" guides you see for computer software because it goes behind the "Users Manual" and gives

you alot of what works and why information about Philmont. This guide is available for around $10 by contacting CoopWri...@aol.com. Sales of the guide help fund the high adventure activities of the Venturing

Crew Coop is the advisor for."

As for forming a "Philmont Patrol", I don't know. As a council trek, we had Scouts from the troops represented (who were not going on the trek) join us on our prep hikes and backpackers. My own opinion is that, if this is a unit trek, isn't this what Scouts should be doing anyway? In my own troop, I have Scouts who can't stand backpacking. We make sure that they are not excluded from Troop activities. Of course, the PLC does this through the planning process when the year is

planned out. Some outings end up being added as "extras" for those interested in ackacking, etc.

--------------------------

Wonder if there are any other Hams that have managed to take their rigs on a campout and got the Scouts interested in Ham Radio, or even Morse Code ? We have two Hams in our Troop, and we have thought about doing the JOTA in October, along with dragging a rig to our indoor/cabin camping weekends, and something during good weather.

I've become more and more disappointed at Scouting. Looking at our Council, Districts, OA, and Troops, there is very little really good interest from the Scouts, and their supporting leaders. For example, I see the Boy Scouts (up to First Class) as more of the Webelos 3rd & 4th year - and then the Scouts drift out of Scouts, or maybe to a Crew, or just stay on the roster as a ghost. Our Troop is still struggling with how to turn itself around from 6 years of a youth camping/outdoors "club". We have several star & Life Scouts, that needed "more", so a Venturing Patrol was setup - but that was not enough, so a Crew was established. Out of 20+ older Scouts on the Troop & Crew roster, only 3 show up for any meeting or discussions. But they will waltz into a Troop meeting for a BOR after getting their rubber stamped MB cards at the local MB Clinic or MB Univ. And yet, they can't start a fire, cook a meal, build a lashing, or most other Scouting skills... let alone teach tme to others, or try and be an active part of the leadership team.

And, as I see at various levels in our Council, most of the organized activities seem like dressed up Cub Scouts - which are still eager, but the Camporee and other "Boy Scout" activiites are pretty lame.... like Webelos 3/4th year levels. So - after getting to First Class, and being around 13/14 - what happens to your older Scouts ?

It appears that our Troop took a shovel a few years ago, and started digging....for what ??

I'm guessing "more fun" - the more "stimulating stuff" - for this generation -

That is why a "troop fun night" was created - like movies, mini golf, etc

That is why the Crew was fought for and created

that is why..... you get the idea - more, more, more -

but did it satisfy them...do they come - no no no !

Also, now that I see this trend in the above print -

it might just be a "generation" of the past 6 years of SM's and Scouts,

that have to pass thru our Troop to get a new and fresh start.

Now we find ourselves in a "hole" with a shovel - and no way out So - the question of "why" and the "boy run" digging is moot - however - the "boy run" is interesting, as at the last couple of PLC meetings, the SM runs them -

because (after this long digging over the past 6 years)

the boys never "learned" how to be leaders & develop a monthly

program

At this point - we are lost in the hole....

and looking for suggestions on how to climb back out -

Maybe the folks browsing this newsgroup never had the problem...

so it seems very foreign to them - but I see a lot of it -

ie - our District with 22 Troops held a Camporee - 10 (50%) showed up

there was competition in Scout skills - but only 5 troops competed (50%)

why ?

So - in closing - if you have a successful Troop with all age ranges,

what does your typical meeting, monthly planning, and outings look like

??

Not sure if the BSA pubs really cover this kind of stuff -

I just flipped thru the Resource guide & Program Features and randomly picked the "Cooking" weekly meeting planner.

New Scouts - work on tools care....

Experienced Scouts - work on dutch oven cooking

Older Scouts - work on Venture program or work with younger scouts...

Well.... the older scouts don't know how, or want to plan their activities,

and don't want to work teaching either

Maybe if we had a "topo map" of what has worked for you, we might be able to dig out -

We have this ongoing problem with the Troop, and how to handle the older scouts - past 13/14.

I have a couple of different msgs on the topic, but here is another set of observations and comments - at least from our Troop's standpoint -

We just got back from a weekend campout,

and I think it comes down to a Scouts commitment & interest....

The same for meetings - we have :

A - the new scouts working on advancement

B - the middle scouts working on advancement

C - the old scouts working on MB's with no other interests - and no attendance

D - the old scouts having the MB's and helping as Guides - maybe -

E - the middle/old scouts NOT working on adv or MBs - just goofing -

At the campout, two of the three ASPLs were not there - (older Scouts, paper positions)

and the one ASPL that was there didn't do much to help... since these older Scouts don't know Scouting skills.

The other two ASPLs have the title on the roster, but don't come to campouts because they are on year round soccer & water polo teams.

Then, the months go by...we don't see them except at a few meetings,

and they have "fulfilled" their requirement for rank advancement... (yeah, I complain, but get browbeat to shutup)

Last spring we acquired several new Coleman backpacking stoves that they took with them during a hike - and used for cooking lunch.

My son has taken an interest in "fire building" of any kind, and was probably the only one that knew how to light the stoves...

...as he said when he got home.... wasn't that a rank requirement along the way...

So, for some reason, he is "interested" in Scouting and forges ahead. They are pushing him to be SPL, and also go to JLTC - (did both over spring, summer, and fall)...

However - he is just one guy... maybe with a couple of his other "interested" scouts things can turn around.

BUT, the basic problem, as I've fought for and lost for the past 3 years...

No one ever wants to say "no" - for fear of "losing" the scout.

ie - We have a 70% attendance policy for advancement - not enforced - but the older scouts NEVER show up at meetings or campouts, and then go to a MB clinic or university

(do they REALLY learn anything there ?? - different rant & thread)

and after that, show up for a BOR, and we haven't seen them for 2 years !!

BUT, they are STILL in Scouting !! Who wins ??

I have a couple of old threads from the Internet newsgroup that can be found on Google Groups -

Here is one from the spring -

---

Our SPL and 2 ASPL's went to JLTC this summer -

They enjoyed it - but I'm not sure they really got anything useful out

of it -

Most of the activities were with their peers, and mostly everyone

wanted to succeed, work together, and learn.

Our biggest "real world" problem is with the 14yr old and above Scouts.

I've posted various msgs about this over the years,

but the other night at a Troop meeting - it became clear -

We were trying to get the 1st years passed on certain elements

prior to going to summer camp.

A couple of the "cool guys" decided to drop in -

A - Life scout with pending Eagle project

B - Life scout brother (HS baseball player)

C - Life scout with pending Eagle project (HS waterpolo player)

The SPL's agenda was to help the younger scouts with what they needed.

He asked the older scouts to pair up with a younger scout for a little

while.

The cool guys said...nay..they were going outside to play football,

and anyone that wasn't working on ranks should go with them -

A few of the older Scouts went with -

The SPL was left speechless -

He basically said that football was inappropriate for this meeting -

and one of the 3 - probably the waterpolo dude -

said he should stop whinning and get some balls -

He mentioned this to the CC and the CC went out to talk to the "group".

The older Scouts came back in, but the cool 3 chose to go home -

They will be back - after not seeing them for months -

for their future Eagle BOR -

nice huh -

-----

> > They will be back - after not seeing them for months -

> > for their future Eagle BOR -

>

> Something tells me with that attitude, they're in for a pretty nasty

> shock if they expect to get Eagle...

not at all - just another rubber stamp advancement.

I tried to enforce the Scout Spirit idea - and being recently "active",

but was browbeat & banished from attending BOR

These scouts have been asked to leave meetings, the PLC meeting,

and other events.... no change - they made Star & Life -

The 2 brothers - their mom is the Adv chair

the other - mom is the main fundraiser -

then there is another Scout - he is a soccer player & dad is ASM.

and 1 or 2 others - and that's some of the older crew...

And just for those reading here,

our own Scout is also on Swim team, Soccer team, & Track team

but he doesn't have the cool complex - he just wins

The others come to the meetings act really cool,

team shirts & sunglasses up in their hair -

but they can't light a fire, cook a meal, lash a tripod, tie a knot,

etc -

and they are Star, Life, etc -

yup - So how does a SPL go to JLTC

and then come back to deal with this real world -

I'll have to look up our Lodge/Chapter election form... if there is one.

I guess it all boils down to having these entries actually checkmarked by the SM, with the last one being the most up for grabs :

A. Be a registered Scout

B. Be a First Class Scout or higher

C. After registration with the unit, have at least 15 days and nights of camping including 6 consecutive days and nights of resident camping within 2 years of the election.

D. Have unit leader approval - The unit leader must certify the candidate's Scout Spirit, his adherence to the Scout Oath and Law, and participation in unit activities.