Prairie_Scouter

Bob, >Who said anything about "just adherence to the text"? Well, I said that, Bob, in reference to your comments in the other thread where you said twice that leaders should "read the Handbook". I took your post in it's context to mean that it's your belief that everything you need to know to handle every program situation in Scouting is covered in the Handbook and the training. I think that that's expecting an awful lot from both. I know that you relish in taking a phrase out of the context of a post and proceeding to attack that, and then proceeding to denigrate anyone who tries t

With all due respect, fellas, the remainder of Bob's post from the other thread makes it sound like all you have to do is open a book, and the world of Scouting will be a happy place. If it was only so. The Scout program provides most of what you need and is very good at what it does, but a critical piece is missing, and that's dedicated and creative leaders and parental support. It's the creative and wise implementation of the Scout program that makes it a success, not just adherence to the text. It's one thing to say "learn a square knot", it's something else to teach it in a creative an

Hmmm, interesting question. I wonder in some cases if we're talking about "contextualism", "Individualism", or just "flexibility". Depends on the item, but here's a thought or two. I have Scouts who come directly from sports practice to the meetings, so they are still in their sports gear. I'd rather have them at the meeting than take the time to go home, change, and then come to what's left of the meeting. For Scouts who just show up out of uniform, I'd rather still have them at the meeting, but if it starts to happen more than occasionally, I would sit down with the Scout and remind

Packsaddle, It seems that you're stating, as fact, that witchcraft, magic, and monsters don't exist? Did I read that correctly? I'm not saying that they DO exist, but I have no reason to believe that they don't, either. There are plenty of strange things in this world. scoutldr, In an earlier post you said that "BSA will never admit that Satanism and Atheism are the same thing". That's probably a good thing, because they're not the same thing. Unless you can objectively document that this kid is doing something contrary to BSA policy, you might consider just leaving him alone.

I guess I'd like to know more about this "contract" you're talking about; doesn't sound like a part of BSA. And, I'd also like to know if this Scout has specifically said that he is practicing rituals to invoke the power of Satan. There are a number of "witch-like" belief sets; I'm not an expert on this; I'm more interested in what this Scout has said about what his belief set is.

It's still an issue funding. Owasippe was sold because they could not afford to keep it open, given dwindling attendance. If the sale is blocked by the zoning committee, then the Chicago Council still has the problem of how to fund Owasippe, which is why they sold it in the first place. The problem isn't solved by blocking the sale.

Piedmont, It sounds like you've done everything you can to help your Scouts succeed. Cub Scouting is run by the adults for the benefit of the Scouts. It's very hard for a Cub Scout to be successful without the support of their parents. So, not your fault. There's only so much you can do. It's especially bothersome when it's 1 Scout out of a group. I would sit down with the Scout and the parents and explain the situation. I'd make sure he understands that he can still move on to Boy Scouts and encourage him to do so. If you can figure out a way to politely word it, you might make the

I haven't seen it in Eagle Scouts, but I've seen "withholding Scouts" as a sort of general punishment across the board. I've had several occasions where a Scout has had a problem at school and have his punishment be that he's not allowed on a Scout outing. I understand that the parents have to do what they think is appropriate, but I wonder why it always seems to be Scouting? Maybe they could skip a baseball game instead. I try to instill in the parents a belief that participating in Scouts might be a good way to help correct their son's behavior. It's probably true that Scouts, as a group,

I run full-screen, 1024 x 768

Packsaddle, There's a centerfold? Gosh, I never noticed, the articles are all so interesting. I don't think that there's enough information to make any kind of judgement from one tidbit like that. I'd be kind of hesitant about informing any Scout authority; not sure I'm qualifed to be the "morality police" for anyone. If he was ignoring Safe Scouting rules, that'd be a different story and something that can be judged more objectively. What if the magazine had been something like Gamblers Monthly? Or Dancing Weekly? Aren't those activities considered to be immoral in some cir

scoutldr, I think that the leader in the Confirmation issue you mention is stepping out of bounds. I don't believe the Catholic Church has any particular rules on when a person can or can't be Confirmed. If this young man is not prepared to be Confirmed, that should really be his decision. If a leader can start establishing standards for how a religion should be practiced, what's next? Checking to see how often the Catholics are going to confession? Ask the Jewish kids if they are observing the Sabath, and how? I think that's going down one of those "slippery slopes" we don't want to go

Hunt, Very good point, I think, and along the lines of what I've been trying to get at. Brings up a question or two or three in my mind... Is the BSA policy on gays based on a religious argument? If so, if BSA is going to be non-sectarian in their views, wouldn't such a religious argument have to be something that is universal across all religions? Or, is the BSA policy based on an interpretation of "morally straight"? If so, who decides what "morally straight" means? Or, I suppose, is it both? In which case, how do you reconcile an interpretation of "morally straight"

EagleDad, I would, of course, never condone any sort of religious persecution in Scouting or outside Scouting. Not sure how you could read my post that way, but I apologize if that was inferred by something I said. However, I didn't say it was "likely" that gays would be bullied by the other Scouts, only that if we're going to be concerned about gays doing "something" if they were tenting with other boys, it's only fair to be concerned about the reaction of the other Scouts to having a gay Scout in their midst. We all aim to make our units a "safe harbor", but it doesn't always work t

I personally wouldn't have a problem with it. If a person passes the BSA background checks, that would be fine with me. In the real world of Scouting, for example, it shouldn't matter what organized religion you belong to, or if you even belong to one. Just doesn't come up. If the restriction on atheists and gays was removed, it shouldn't even be a topic of discussion. Are there parents who would have a problem if their SM was Roman Catholic and they were Jewish? Possibly, if the topic came up or if the leader pushed Roman Catholicism. But, a good leader wouldn't be making an issue of

Eamonn, Well, lets see, Scouting in the U.S. is almost 100 years old, so I guess that means I've got about 159 years to wait :-). Maybe my great, great, great, great grandchildren will witness the change. This is a great topic for discussion, but honestly, in the "real world" of Scouting, I spend most of my time trying to remember if I've got the tour permit turned in for my next outing (which reminds me......). The gay issue really doesn't come up in everyday work on Scouting (which we all know is 1 hour per week :-); I've figured what they really meant is "1 hour per Scout per wee

Eamonn, I think that most of what you talk about in other troops can be attributed to lack of training and experience. I was fortunate that I had an older son in Boy Scouts, so that by the time my younger son bridged and I became SM, I was familiar with the program and how it differed from Cub Scouting. Many new leaders, I think, consider Boy Scouts to be an extension of Cub Scouts. Beyond that, I think it's just a lack of doing the hard work required to get all things you mention in place; some leaders are not interested in that much effort, or able to provide that much effort for whateve

Eamonn, We can agree to disagree and that's fine and as it should be. I guess in the case of BSA, I think the program is too important to take a "take it or leave it" attitude, and so, I work from within, respecting the views of others, hoping they will respect mine and take them into account. BSA is currently a private organization protected by a Supreme Court decree. Laws change, courts change, attitudes change. Values don't, and shouldn't change, but how those values are interpreted and put into action can, and sometimes should. Tuna, caviar and spicy ginger? When do we eat?? :-)

FScouter, Marge's comment may not have been about an expectation of changing the rules, but simply wanting the exec to hear the complaining parent, in person, in order to assess the best way to address the problem in the way of "approach", not "content".

Just for the record, to follow up on my previous post, according to the Scouting for All website (which is a pro-gays in Scouting organization), they reference the World Scouting website as saying that, of 152 national Scouting organizations, 2/3 either have no policy on gays, or have a non-discrimination policy. Snake Eater, this is a little bit different then me, as a kid, wanting to wear platform shoes because everyone else was. My point was to not simply follow in lockstep to other organizations, but on the other hand, if the majority of Scouting organizations, to which we are suppos

shawnee, Sure, but we're having a bit of a problem with tuna right now, so you might want to just bring along some ham and cheese. :-)

Eamonn, I have a quandary with some of this. Maybe you can help clear this up in my head, since you do so well with your writing. I'm sort of torn on this. I can accept the "duty to God" in Scouting, and agree that, the way things stand, atheists are not able to be members. It's clearly stated by BSA and has been for a long time. I may not agree with the underlying principals behind it, but that's ok for my purposes right now. The gay issue is a little different for me. Disallowing gays isn't a "value", as such, it's a policy, and as far as I can tell, wasn't actually put

>So Prairie Scouter, who do you understand to be the people who "run the store" of scouting. >Not who do you think it should be, or what your opinion is, but who do you know for sure >makes these decisions in the BSA? Bob, What I've been told is that there is a sub-committee, which reports to the BSA Board of Directors, that is responsible for establishing policy.

Luckily, I like the homemade apple pie so much that I keep coming back even tho I don't like their choice of vegetables. I keep coming back for the pie, hoping that while I'm there I can convince them to let us have carrots. :-) Ok, so, I'm not real sure where this analogy is headed anymore, but I like the tone a whole lot more than other threads I've seen. Thanks so much. OGE, I like your analogy of adding meat to a vegan shop and understand the implications. I guess it depends on who's running the store. :-)

Thanks, Snake Eater. Appreciate the positive comment. Eamonn, you're right, Scouting isn't a cafeteria where you can pick and choose what policy you and don't want to follow. On the other hand, if I frequent a particular cafeteria and the only vegetable they have it beans, I might take the time to try and convince them to adjust their menu a bit; it might be in their best interests to do that, since they could then attract customers who want something besides beans. Sorry, , a silly play off or your analogy, but the best I could in the short break between kid's soccer games today :-

OGE, Among the many things that BSA does well is training. The training materials are first rate, and most instructors do a decent job of explaining the material to the new leaders. The first thing I always do when we get new leaders is get them signed up for the 1st available training. In addition to that, I make efforts to make sure that new leaders have mentors among the more experienced adults to help them learn their way. We do similar things with our new junior leaders. The hardest thing for some Cub leaders to do when they become Boy Scout leaders to learn to step back and let the