Prairie_Scouter

A couple of thoughts... First, Bob White, regards your comment about schools not teaching character, physical fitness, etc, etc. I don't know where you live, but this is absolutely not true where I live (Il). Our Schools have a program called Character Counts, physical fitness classes are required, knowledge of citizenship is required for graduation, a requirement for community service before graduation, etc. Second, about these comments in regards to ""we" have our beliefs. Why can't you just leave us alone?" or words to that affect...First, BSA is always very adament about this,

Not to go off on too much of a tangent, but I'd have to say that Israel isn't an "innocent victim" when it comes to the violence in the region. Yes, they bear the brunt of "not being welcome" in the region, their land having been created after WWII by taking land away from the "losers". But, the government of Israel has hardly been an innocent; they take fine advantage of the military tools provided by the U.S. Israel seems to be the poster child for the pre-emptive strike policy which GW has taken such a fondness to. They have shown restraint mostly when the U.S. has exerted political press

Eamonn, I have a couple of Scouting friends who are believers in many of Grassfire's issues, and so I get email from them pretty regularly about whatever the current petition is. That's how I originally became aware of them. They're an interesting outfit, but they tend to be a "one-side only" organization, which so many special interest groups are, unfortunately. I'm one of those folks who may have a point of view, but I still want to understand the opposing side. There's no way to get to a mutual understanding if you only know one side of an issue.

Anarchist, Not really meaning to crusade, just discuss. Regards this... >>What is being missed here? The organization says...homosexuals are not eligible for >>leadership or membership in the organization/movement...take it as a personal (corporate) >>belief...what is so hard to understand? Not hard to understand, just wondering who in BSA gets to decide where the line is drawn? What happens if they next say, "blacks are not eligible for....". Would that be ok, too? If their whole argument falls back on the phrase "morally straight", then you have to go bac

Anarchist, Well, I can't disagree with you. I was pretty clear in my last post that I have my own points of view on where Scouting is and where I think it should be. The point of my examples wasn't to explain what bias I have, but to bring some examples to light in the hopes that somebody will say, "well, that's true", or "well, no, that's not quite right". We all have biases based on things we think we know or just our own personal beliefs. I *think* what I was trying to say was that "I've got this view, and here are a couple of examples that lead me to believe that I'm correct in that v

Torveaux, sorry, I don't have time right now to go back and look up those sources, I am certain of 2 things. One, before the war started, the media was allowed to interview high ranking military leaders, and they clearly stated the need for troop levels far beyond those that were eventually deployed. Two, in the time since the war, every interview I've seen in regards to troop levels has been with the civilian defense leader, Sec. Rumsfeld, and he consistently has said that he has asked his generals if they have everything they need, and that they always reply "yes". At this point, pol

Fuzzy, Well said. I agree with those sentiments 100% I think that the "gay issue" in Scouting has 2 segments to it. One, there is the idea that gays are somehow a danger because of their lifestyle. That is to say, the thought that they are mostly pedophiles or are somehow otherwise dangerous to Scouts in a very objective way. I believe that this notion is almost entirely false; statistics just don't bear out these notions. I'm sure that some percentage of gays are pedophiles; so are some percentage of heteros. Everything I've read says that there is no difference in the rate

Grassfire represents views of the conservative Christian movement. They will support BSA policies when it suits their purposes. I've seen several of their petitions, and like many groups do on both side of some issues, they will "spin" news items to their own ends. As I've said in another thread, Grassfire is happy to support BSA as long as BSA is doing things that supports Grassfire's goals. If BSA were to make a change, Grassfire could easily become anti-Scouting if it suited their purposes. After one of their petition drives recently, I contacted them, asking why they couldn't pre

I think I'll try to steer back to my original question a bit. I think I've got a better feel now for the position on atheists. What about the position of BSA on gays? I know the court case is fairly recent, but was there a time when BSA started to actively move against gays, or is that a historical "thing" as well?

Hunt and Acco.... You know, you're right. I wasn't sure what term would have been better, so used "discrimination". You're absolutely right that we discriminate all the time to protect our families, etc. And, BSA should discriminate against those who have a proven history of activities that could be dangerous to our Scouts. But, I'll go with Acco's assertion that BSA would be better served by judging people based on their actions, not on some nebulous judgement of who's good and who's bad. Kinda nice to have some folks around who seem to understand my thoughts better than I do! :-)

I think at this point we all agree on the essence of the thread, which is, we need to be sure that we support the troops and that they know it, regardless of what we think about the war itself. Regards an earlier post, diplomacy does not equal inaction. Had diplomacy pretty much failed at this point? Yes, but mostly because the U.S. has lost the critical skills needed to have diplomacy work. In the past 20 years, we've chosen to let the military do our diplomacy for us. They try their best, but it's really not their job. Bless'em for the work they do for all of us. The failure I se

Remember that the race is for the boys, not the parents who want to get going as soon as they can. There has to be a balance between giving the boys as much race time as possible without having it get "boring". We've always used lane rotation. It's the only way to eliminate fast and slow lanes. In the "good old days", ie, pre-computers, we used to use brackets, but had a losers bracket so everybody raced at least twice, and that helped to eliminate the problem of having fast cars eliminated just because they were in a fast heat. Now, we use Derbymaster and display it on a projection sys

A comment was made about how the uniform looks better on people who are "trim", or something to that effect. One thing that I find a good deal of entertainment value in is to take a look at most of the adult leaders, and wonder how it is that BSA is willing to go the Supreme Court to support the part of the Scout Law that says a Scout is "morally straight", but doesn't seem to care much about the "physically strong" part. Then again, I have a friend who attends a lot of Roundtables and has some concerns about the "mentally awake" part.....:-)

Anarchist, I guess your question about "who's history am I reading" is part of my quandary, which I've opened a separate thread to discuss. There is more than one point of view on where BSA has been, how they fit into the overall concept of "Scouting" (and that, again, depends on who you read), and where it's heading. I don't pretend to know the answers, but I have points of view based on what I've read and my own beliefs as to where BSA should "be". There are a number of sources that would lead me to believe that BSA is not as inclusive now as you would have me to believe. And, I sus

Eamonn, Thanks again for your thoughts. Couple of thoughts.... In regards to why people who don't like BSA just don't find another organization... I think that BSA, at the local level, does a wonderful job, and that work of the local units far outweighs the damage that I think is being done to BSA at the national level. It's matter of being able to live what I figure is the "5% bad" to get the "95% good". I can live with that, while I try to make change from within. I doubt that I'll have much impact because I don't think the I have the resources to dent the national hierarchy.

I'm probably in the minority here, but I have great respect for our men in uniform while at the same time being disgusted by the government policies that have led to our actions in Iraq. I didn't serve in VietNam, although I'm in that age group. The VietNam troops were treated very badly coming home exactly because the American public couldn't separate the political motives of the government from the soldiers forced to take action in support of those motives. We can argue all day whether Bush was justified in invading Iraq when he did. My disgust with him centers on the fact, well do

Rick, I guess I was with you until right at the end. Thanks for your comments. I'll have to disagree with you on your last statement. If the struggle of gays and atheists is a test of what Scouting really stands for, I think I interpret that as saying that it's a fight for BSA's right to discriminate. Regardless of what any Supreme Court ruling says, I teach my sons that discrimination is wrong. It's wrong in general society and it's wrong within BSA. Getting a Court to agree that they're some sort of private club doesn't change that. Gays are almost an easy target for BSA because the c

fgoodwin... You make good points. I think that my answer to your very valid comments is that I'd like BSA to recognize that a belief in God isn't a pre-requisite to being a good citizen. I think that that's just incorrect, and I believe that in the history of Scouting, Baden-Powell thought the same thing, but lost that battle when BSA was being founded. That doesn't mean that they will change, but that's my hope. Merlyn... Yeah, I've seen that BSA said that. To me, it just shows how far they are willing to remove themselves from the original precepts of Scouting to meet their polit

First of all, we should probably recognize that politicians like Frist will support anything that will get them a few votes. That's not just because of his party affiliation. One of the 1st things I learned in PoliSci class was that the job of every elected official is, first and foremost, to get re-elected. Frist sees an issue that will be popular with his constituency, and that's the extent of it. Second, we should be careful about groups like Grassfire. Grassfire is a conservative Christian organization; taking their support endangers the non-denominational character of Scouting.

To Anarchist (from a few posts back)... Actually, I *don't* want BSA to roll over on its principals. I would like BSA to get back to what those principals once were. Scouting was once much more inclusive than it now is; at least that's what history seems to indicate. I don't necessarily agree with Merlyn, but I'm trying to see his point of view, even tho I'd have to agree with those who see a lot of anger in his approach. No, I don't want to destroy BSA. In fact, I'm trying to work from within to make it the organization it once was. My feeling is that BSA has been co-opted by special

I can tell you that the Eagle requirements in our Council aren't being diluted, as far as I can tell. The Scouts are doing significant projects to meet their Eagle requirements. As far as the numbers go, I think there have been enough stories about "cooked books" to know that it's happening. On the other hand, the systems that our Council uses are so archaic that I can't imagine how they get an accurate number from it. Also, there's some sort of "outreach" program going on with schools that I think gets counted in the Scout totals, although I don't think that the participants are act

Wow, thanks, guys, for all the thoughts. Very interesting. To Bob... No reason to be in "awe", those comments of mine weren't "conclusions" as much as they were observations based on BSA national's behavior. And, not just "saying" I'm asking questions; I'm looking for somewhat objective sources of the history behind what appears to be BSA actions. What my own feelings are as I look into that information are really kind of irrelevent. And, as far as the Bible Belt goes, there's the geographical center of the Bible Belt, and the cultural center; I don't really know where either is. Reg

There are always plenty of discussions in regards to the participation in Scouting by gays and atheists. I'm trying to step back from that a bit and look into the history behind it, and find out how it got to be this way. I understand that some of the original wording that formed BSA talked about a "belief in God" or "a god" or something like that. Correct? Has BSA always been so vehement,tho, in it's actions to make sure that atheists aren't allowed in? Is that more recent? Similarly, for gays, I don't believe that there's anything explicitly said anywhere that gays can't be good S

As with all court rulings, the Supreme Court ruling in favor of BSA only lives as long as this Supreme Court is in existence. Should the Court change to a more liberal group, it's quite possible that the case could be re-initiated and the findings be quite different in the end. The ACLU strategy, as someone else mentioned, could end up having some unanticipated, and very bad, consequences. Carried to it's logical end, the ACLU will force BSA to become a private religious organization, and that is exactly NOT what I think most people in Scouting would want. BSA is already heavily slan

I wonder if there might have been a better way to use such a list in Illinois. By giving it to the ACLU (a group who does good work, mostly, but also never saw an issue they couldn't get a press release out of), it will force the schools to drop their charters, which only ends up punishing the kids. Just think, for example, of the political muscle that could have been generated by working to build a nationwide list of sponsoring organizations that are technically breaking policy, or law, or whatever, by sponsoring Scout units, and then using the list with BSA to try and get some action. Ima