PatBB

From Alfansome's Post #5: "Would all the other positive benefits of scouting allow parents to be drawn to the program even in spite of the focus on religion?" YES. Bingo. There are many people who join many org.s for all the positive things with which they agree despite disagreeing with a few details. Also, parents can be atheists but not want to brainwash/ indoctinate their children, so they want their children to hear & understand the case for and against the existence of God, then make up their own mind when they come of age.

I find it ironic that Asian Georgia succeeded in seceding from the Soviet Union in the 1990s while our Georgia was stopped from seceding from the USA in the 1860s !

I was born in 1962 & raised in Ohio. I moved to the NC coast in 2004, where I still live. Last year I went to Richmond, VA, where I discovered & visited the Museum of the Confederacy & Jefferson Davis' home. In 1 of those 2 I read that in early 1864 a Confederate General whose first name was Patrick (I don't remember his last name) suggested to Pres. Davis & his Chiefs of Staff that slaves should be offered freedom if they would enlist in the CSA Army. He believed that sacrificing slavery like so would allow them to at least win & preserve Southern Independence.

What if Intelligent Design proves someday that creating the Universe required a minimum HUNDREDS of gods/ creators working MILLIONS of years? Thereby disproving BOTH the Atheistic faction of Evolutionism & 'Yahweh alone in 6 days as described in Genesis.'

Eamonn, Your stories above remind me of the sign on the back wall of each school bus when I was in grade school, "A Safe School Bus Requires That:" with 10 rules following. #10 was, "There is no substitute for good judgment." Also in my 1 semester of law school, I read that the better judges in courts in the 1800s in the USA were guided by, "Where the reason stops, so does the rule." Finally, in the USA a person who enforces rules unreasonably for their own sake is called an indecent P-word meaning "male private part."

For some of the above reasons, I much prefer the Scout Law of Scouts Australia, which has 10 "A Scout Is..." traits rather than 12. Instead of Obedient & Reverent, An Australian Scout is RESPECTFUL! Respectful not only of authority, but also of people who are required to live under the rules, and of peers & even subordinates when one is S/PL.

I agree with the changes, mainly for PrairieScouter's reasons. By the norms of 1907, an anti-monarchist was not a good loyal British citizen/ subject. I believe that the new Oath leaves the cornerstones of Scouting intact. "Unity in all things essential, diversity in all things non-essential."

My message had nothing to do with my personal theology. I merely asserted that: A. The SEs' dishonesty in membership numbers is a much more serious violation of Scouting principles than is refusal to believe in God, &B. The National Council is hypocritical in punishing the latter quickly while punishing the former slowly or not at all. I concede to Adrianvs on BSA's broad definition of God, while I still fault his assumption that I must be an atheist just because I wrote that atheists in Scouting are not so bad.

Adrianvs, I do believe in God, but I don't force my theism on others. The definition of Reverent in the Scout Handbook includes respecting the beliefs of others. You have disrespected my beliefs re the supernatural, as well as those of Atheists. Moreover, different countries have similar but not identical Scout Laws. I prefer that of Scouts Australia, which in its 10 Points says Respectful rather than Reverent & Obedient. Darrell Lambert's actions were in greater accord & compliance with the Scout Law than those of the number-inflaters. Indeed, he did the behaviors whic

How is my joke tasteless?

Unfortunately, it looks like the BSA places much more importance on being a heterosexual who believes that the Universe was created by a Creator than on worldwide core Scout principles such as Trustworthiness.

BW believes that humor about a controversial event that happened to 2 Eagle Scouts has no place on a Scouting forum?

In British Columbia it is a province-wide law: No Smoking in any public indoor space including bars & restaurants. So how about a cartoon where southbound smokers & the northbound Tim Curran & James Dale meet at the border, where Immigration Officers ask, "Why are you coming to our country?" "To go where fags are OK!" answer both groups.

My views are a melange of those of Trevorum, Hunt, Wyomingi, Pint, Prairie Scouter, & ScoutingAgain. 1. Despite my belief in gender equality, I recognize that there is a place for single-sex orgs. 2. I'm pleased that many countries have one admin./governing body called "Scouting & Guiding Association," which offers boy-only, girl-only & co-ed Troops to meet members' needs & desires. Itsaves on admin. costs. Also, it's not 1918 anymore & many kids want to do counter-gender-stereotypical activities. I'm a 43 yo male & I remember the old GS uniforms mentioned by

I object to the closed-clique dictatoriality of both the BSA & Scouts Canada. The National Councils operate like Soviet Politburos in that when a member retires, resigns, or dies, the Council picks another one just like themselves. I would like Scouting leadership to be democratically elected for fixed terms and answerable to the membership. Both in Scouting & the State, we need leaders who say, 'If you don't like my policies, then vote for my opponent!' instead of, '...then get out!'

I disagree with Adrian's definition of hypocrisy. The word comes from the Greek HYPO meaning "under" or "not enough" & CRITIC(AL). Nothing 2 do with 'actors.' A hypocrite is anyone who uses a double standard which is less critical of himself or his friends/comrades than of his enemies or the general public The only way the Prohibitionistic Alcoholic could avoid hypocrisy is to say, "Don't be so stupid/foolish as I was to drink & get hooked on booze."

I believe that organizations exist for their members, not vice versa. What Bob describes has given Scouting the current Politburo of a National Council where new members are handpicked to continue the policies of the Clique in a dictatorial manner. In contrast, the Girl Scouts USA & Camp Fire have leadership that is accountable to the members & respects their viewpoints in the decision-making process. In contrast, the BSA reminds me of the kids in "Mean Girls" where someone is ostracized just because the bully ringleader or Queen Bee says so.

He was expelled because the Council objected to his 'using a kid' (Steven Cozza, age 13) to further his agenda. Dave was 68 y/o & had been a Cub, Eagle, & then a Scouter his whole adult life. I think he deserved more respect for his experience. I would have respected Gregg Shields if he had challenged Mr. Rice to run against him for the Presidency/Chairmanship of BSA.

To better make OGE's point of sarcastically dissing Wheeler's label of 'drivel', I have added the quotation marks with the meaning of 'alleged' or 'so-called' so Fella can understand it better. The unfortunate allure of street gangs to boys is that A Boy is the Boss, in contrast to most of the legitimate youth orgs., where a Chaperone or Adult Advisor runs the show & the Boys or Girls are treated as members of an inferior social class called 'Kids' who are incapable & unworthy of leadership positions. It doesn't work well because 2B legitimate, a Leader must earn Authority. No o

I believe in God & I like to view my country as 'One Nation Under God,' but I don't force:) my religious beliefs on others. The Australians had a very intelligent solution in their Pledge, which is also their Pledge for New Citizens being naturalized: As an Australian citizen, I affirm * my loyalty to Australia and its people, Whose democratic beliefs I share, Whose rights and liberties I respect, And whose laws I uphold and obey. From: http://www.citizenship.gov.au/ceremonies.htm This Pledge must have been revised just this year, because when I read it in

Darrell believes in & lives by the Scout Oath & Law. He even does the deeds/actions which most believers call 'Duty to God'--even though he believes that God is a fictional character. OK, if I joined Toys for Tots & IF they required me to promise to 'do my duty to Santa Claus,' I would so promise even though I disbelieve in the existence of a Man With 8 Reindeer Who Comes Down Chimneys. Indeed, because I know that he doesn't exist, I would be all the more committed to filling his noble function of bringing gifts & joy to children on December 25. Please also note that or

...for becoming an org. to honor ALL GIs who have fought overseas for Uncle Sam:)! Atheistic veterans did not deserve this dissing of their service & sacrifice. Merlyn, the only org.s which would have any logical reason to have such a no-Jewish-adults rule would be the Future Gentiles of (insert name of State or Country) or the Moderate Nazi Youth ( disagreeing with Hitler's Auschwitz Policy /believing that Jews should be re-educated, not killed.) The message to Jewish children would be, "You don't really want to grow up to be Jews, do you?" OK, Merlyn, how about a youth org.

Sorry, Bob, on National Office vs. National Council. I like NJ's post the best, esp. on COs' authority on other issues. The Scouting Tent is big enough for every Troop from those sponsored by Mormon churches who require all members 2B Mormons to very inclusive ones sponsored by City Govts. or Unitarian churches:). My NFL analogy would be the authority of individual teams to set salaries (within the cap, if any), practice hours, discipline on minor matters, & to trade players, i.e. deciding that John Doe shall be out of the Pittsburgh Steelers but still in the NFL. On the Athei

My position on the Gay ?? in Scouting: Get the gay libbers, the courts, AND the homophobic closed clique which is the National BSA Office--all out of it. All (older) Scouts, their parents, & Scouters should have a voice in the Debate/Vote. Personally, I prefer local option on a case-by-case, Troop-by-Troop, Council-by-Council basis. What I abhor is not the rule, but rather the dictatoriality due to the unelected, appointed-by-the-other-board-memebers status of National Board members. I would have respected Gregg Shields if he had challenged Dave Rice to run against him in a Boy Scou