Owl62

I have no problem with youth, cubs, younger Scouts, etc, attending or participating in flag retirement ceremonies.

I do think it is important though to briefly explain the retirement so that all understand. Any no one should be forced to participate or observe.

The U.S. Flag code contains just one brief statement about retirement of the U.S. Flag (the word "destroyed" is used). The preferred method is burning. Contrary to popular belief, there is no detailed specifics on how to retire a U. S. Flag in the code.

Among the things I have heard about flag retirements are:

1. Only patriotic, or veterans organizations can retire flags.

2. Only adults can retire flags.

3. The flag has to be cut up before burning it (usually with a statement that cutting up a flag makes it no longer a flag - is it not a cut up flag???)

4. The ashes from the flag have to be buried.

5. A campfire used for a flag retirement cannot be used for any other purpose.

6. Those observing a flag retirement must turn their backs on the burning flag.

7. Ashes from a flag retirement campfire cannot be gathered and kept

8. And so on.

Many people have been taught, have observed, or believe that there is a certain procedure that must be followed to retire a flag. Simply not required by the code.

Bottom line is, the U.S. Flag code contains none of those. Perhaps some of those procedures come from organizations that retire flags, but they are not in the code.

The U. S. Flag code even says that the flag itself is considered a living thing. That is something that I personally believe. Retirements of the U. S. Flag can be very moving, very emotional and that should be taken into consideration when comducting one.

Personally, I beieve that cutting up a U.S. Flag to retire it is desecration of the Flag. That is my belief - others disagree. I won't participate in a retirement ceremony if the Flag is to be cut up. Just my belief. The code does not say to cut up the Flag. Not only do I think it is wrong, I think it is unnecessary.

Retiring a flag to me is similar to a funeral of a friend or loved one.

Personally, the flag retirements that I have seen that are the best in my opinion, are brief, without much ceremony, but with due respect.

Anyone out there know anything about the Corps of Discovery?

Anyone have it implemented in their council or area and can tell us about how it works?

Thanks.

Volunteers in the BSA are just that, volunteers. You have the right to leave anytime you want and that is it, period. You have no obligation to submit a resignation either verbally or in writing (although that is probably the ethical or "correct" thing to do. If your resignation is not accepted, and you still want to leave, just leave. Of course all of this is just my opinion. But if I wanted to leave a volunteer position, I would do it.

After readling this forum and the commissioner publications, I am now wondering what a "unit leader" is?

The publications simply say that a commissioner should not be a unit leader. There was an entry in the forum that a unit leader is s Scoutmaster, ASM, Cubmaster, etc. But committee members are not "leaders".

But, the new BSA training for "leaders" is Leader Specific training and that includes committee training. So are committee members also "leaders" If that is the case, then can unit committee members be commissioners?

So where it comes to commissioner duty, what is a unit leader?

Also, I can't find anywhere that a commissioner must have that position as their "primary" paid position. I have heard people say that, but I can't find it written anywhere.

Can anyone tell us where to find it written (please not what is thought, or that someone knows, but where to find it in writing), in official BSA documentation, regarding commissioner service, what a unit leader is, and whether a commissioner must be primarily registered as a commissioner?

Our unit does use activity permission forms for each activity other than troop meetings.

Our form was developed from several forms and other sources. It is a two part form that can be separated by cutting the top part of the form from the lower part. Both parts contain the name and type of activity, the dates and times of the activity, the location of the activity, and contact information. The top part is cut off and left with the parent/guardian so that if they need to contact the unit leaders for the activity they will have that information.

The lower part of the form contains information about the activity, and a consent/rlease statement that is signed by the partent/guardian and a statement that the Scout agrees to comply with the Scout Oath and Law, and any rules or instructions from the leaders that the Scout then signs. The parents/guardians must enter contact information for the entire period of the activity and must agree that they are responsible to arrange transporation for their Scout if they need to leave the activity for any reason.

Again, we use this form for all activities.

Our local Scoutfitter has the new pants and I took a look at them.

I like the design of them, the color, they are versatile (the zip-off legs are great) and dry fast.

But I don't like suplex nylon. It tears easily, it is cold in the winter (although their design allow you to wear longjohns, etc underneath, and I am very concerned about fire. Nylon usually melts away from a heat source but if it gets hot enough it might melt right to the wearer's skin. Also, nylon suplex to me is too lightweight and feels like nothing. I wore a pair of similar pants on a hike in some rather thick woods that had a lot of thorny vines and tore them up real bad. I prefer heavier cotton field pants - maybe with some nylon in them.

I would also like to see the standard official field uniform pants with zip-off legs.

I won't be buying the new nylon suplex pants unless they make them mandatory. But those of you that like them - well - enjoy.

In our unit, everyone pays their own way. On occasion, we have reimbursed an adult who offered to pull the unit trailer when no one else would.

Campout and activitiy fees (camp fees, activity, food, etc) are paid by each person participating in the activity. Same goes for registration fees - everyone pays their own. The recharter fee comes from the troop fund. The troop fund comes from fundraising and occasional donations.

For most weekend campouts we manage to keep fees for food to $5 (for 3 meals)and for the most part, through good planning, we have been able to do that. Part of what we are supposed to be doing is helping the youth plan and manage money. I doubt that most parents could feed their youth lunch, dinner and breakfast for only $5 - at least that is not what I see when I watch many people buy food at the grocery stores and the lines at the fast food restaurants and the full parking lots at the regular parking lots. We still have parents who complain about the $5 food fee, but often their youth arrive at activities with fast food for one meal costing much more that $5.

We encourage the youth to participate in fundraising so that money is available to help pay for activities. Many of the parents transport their own youth so we don't have much of a transportation problem.

Personally, I no longer transport youth members in my personal vehicle but due to possible liablity issues in the event of an accident. I will transport gear though. I also no longer drive any of the chartered organization vehicle for the same reason.

And, I do not give to FOS. I pay hundreds of dollars a year to the program in support of activities, not to mention hundreds of hours of my time. I figure that is enough and much more than others.

Actually, there were Totin' Chip patches back to at least 1965 for sure and even earlier I believe. I was a Scout in the mid 60s and I was presented with both a Totin' Chip card and patch. The patch was white with a red border and embroidered lettering and emblem. It was pocket flap shaped and we were told to wear them on our right shirt pocket flaps unless we were in OA - then the lodge flap went there. I am not sure that the Totin' Chip patches where supposed to be worn on the pocket flap on not.

There is an interesting website on Totin' Chip:

http://totinchip.home.comcast.net/

It includes a page with images of the Totin' Chip patches.

There is a current version of the Totin' Chip patch sold in most Scout shops. I cannot find anything in the current insignia guide about it to include where to wear it.

I have earned two Adult Leader Training awards (Boy Scout and Venturing), and was given only the knot and the certificate. I had to buy my own devices (Boy Scout and Venturing) for the knot/medal. And yes, there is a medal for the award available. Mine cost me $8 at the Scout shop and it was in stock but I had to ask for it. The little devices were about $3 a piece!

One rule I heard was no vehicles past the parking lot, on the camp roads, or in camp, only trailers. Question: how is the trailer going to get to the campsite?

Another rule is no electronics and then a photographer goes all over camp with a digital camera taking pictures and then the camp staff has a slide show the final night of camp.....

No lockblade knives. Can't understand this one - the locking mechanism is a safety feature.

Lots of others - too numerous to mention.

I guess some people just feel better if there are lots of rules.

My Chevy, my music.

If it ain't country, it ain't music. (And I listen to older country music).

If they don't want to hear me sing along, they can ride with someone else.

I usually have no riders......

I think that as a uniformed organization, we should try to wear the appropriate uniform for our program, as properly as we can.

But, I think that there is a big difference between wearing the uniform as best as one can, possibly making some minor changes, and deliberately wearing a uniform improperly. Of course there will be those that say that if a uniform is not EXACTLY as stated in the regulations, then it is not a proper uniform.

Examples:

Wearing only the uniform shirt, especially for newer members or for those with financial issues. I think it is preferable to get members into the program that driving uniforma regulations. A uniform shirt may be better than no uniform at all.

Wearing items that are not exactly "uniform". Such as friendship knots, neckerchiefs that are not approved by the Scout Executive, special unit patches, insignia that the wearer is no longer qualified to wear (such as an OA lodge patch or a position patch), non-uniform belts and caps, dangles and necklaces of many kinds, etc. Our unit for example has a special patch that we give to Scouters who attend summer camp the first time with the troop - we figure they give up a week of their time, so we recognize them and allow them to wear it on the right shirt pocket. We have a special friendship knot that we allow to be worn on the right shirt pocket or from the belt. And want about all the other things I have seen suspended from belts (knives, cord and rope, cups, keys, two-way radios, cell phones, pagers, PDAs, radios, CD players, MP3 players, GPS units, compasses, and on and on. I know of nothing that actually permits wear of those items on the belt. Some probably should not be worn at Scout functions, others may be ok. Then there are all the necklaces I see. From regularly jewelry to others such as arrowheads, bear claws, sharks teeth, feathers, arrows, beads, etc. What about non-unifom belts, caps, jackets, t-shirts, sweatshirts, etc.?

Then there are those that deliberately wear items on the uniform such as spoof insignia, insignia of other organizations, etc. I think those are far more inappropriate that much of what I have mentioned above.

I have on occasion mentioned uniforming to someone I see that is way out beyond the regs but it is done quietly and I make no big deal of it. Seeing the shoulder loops on upside down (with the seam showing seems to bother me..... Also, webb belts with about a foot of excess belt hanging down.

While we should all strive to wear a proper uniform, I think that a degree of common sense has to be present. I think that one good way to encourage proper uniforming to others is to wear a proper uniform.

Any ideas about keeping dry in a tent?

Over the years, I have learned a number of things to help stay dry in a tent.

1. Use a good quality tent.

2. Consider the design of the tent. I prefer "A" frame tents or dome shaped tents. Try to make sure that the rain fly covers all the tent (some tents have large sections that extend out beyond the reach of the rain fly and every one of those I have ever seen have leaked; try to keep the walls reasonably taught - if they droop esepecilly at ground level they may form pockets that catch water and since the tent material is not designed to "hold" water, they will leak there; try t get a tent with a vestibule or at least one with a rain fly that extends out over doors and windows a good distance; has good ventilation (condensation is WET (the rainfly should not touch the tent walls and should be taught rather than loose and droopy); tie glow in the dark or or lease bright colored strips to the guy lines to make them easier to see so that you or others are less likely to trip over them.

3. Treat ALL seams with some type of sealant. All means all, not just around the floor. Wind can push rain sideways and if it hits seams the tent will leak - and every tent I have ever seen has leaked.

4. Keep the tent in good repair and make sure it is thoroughly dry before storing it.

5. Consider location for erecting the tent. Try to find a natural wind break. Try to find a spot where the ground slopes away from the tent on ALL sides. Erect the tent so that the length of the tent runs in the same direction as the prevailing wind - if the tent is not rectangular, put one corner towards the prevailing wind. Erect it so the door is away from the prevaling wind. Avoid low areas, trails, ditches, directly under trees (they drip for a long time after it rains.

6. Use a waterproop ground tarp under the tent. It will help keep the tent dry, insulate the floor of the tent, and help protect the floor of the tent.

7. Use a separate waterproof tarp on the floor inside the tent. If the tent leaks, and I have never seen one that doesn't, most of the water on the floor will be between the inside tarp and the tent floor helping keep you and your belongings dry. Keep the tent floor as dry as possible when it does get wet by using towels to keep the water soaked up.

9. Avoid wearing foot gear in a tent - it tracks in dirt and is hard on the tent floor. Use a small towel or plastic sheet or bag inside the tent door to place your footgear on - especially if they are wet.

10. Don't touch, or allow any of your gear to touch the tent walls - they are likely to leak right where they are touched.

11. Try to keep the tent dry while in use. It it is not raining, raise or remove the rain fly to help dry out the tent.

12. Use a good waterproof sleeping mat under your sleeping bag (or a cot).

Any other ideas?

I am seeking opinions on good rain gear - specifically a rain suit (hooded jacket and pants).

I have a coated nylon poncho that I use for backpacking and just about any good coated nylon poncho that is big enought is good for that.

But rain suits are another matter. Most are made of thin, coated nylon, or Vinyl or a combination. Some are of gortex or similar material but they are very expensive. Most coated nylon suits are not every effective in ongoing rain. Vinyl is ok but are subject to cuts and tears, and condensation inside gets the wearer about as wet as they rain. I only owned one vinyl suit and almost immediately stopped using it because of the condensation problem.

I have compromized by using a hip length hooded nylon jacket made of heavier nylon and lined with a mesh material and similar pants and treating the outside of those with a heavy duty water repellent. That seems to work well. I use this went it rains most or all day. I still carry a lighter coated nylon rain jacket in my day pack.

I also have a hooded nylon microfiber jacket that is about hip length that I have treated with a water repellent that works well in a pinch. I have a fleece jacket that I use as a liner for that when it is cold.

Anyone one else care to share your ideas and experiences with rain suits.

Of course the manufacturer of the tent suggested purchasing a new tent. I wonder why that is?

Many products today are not manufactured to be repaired - at least easily - or by the manufacturer. Instead they are made to be discarded and replaced. Again, I wonder why that might be?

Many times products can be cleaned, repaired, etc. through other means.

I was once told the same thing by another manufacturer of a tent I own that had a damaged zipper. Was advised to just buy a new one - and this was for a tent that was only one year old. Instead, I found a local canvas repair shop who replaced the zipper for a much better zipper for a very reasonable cost, and three years later I am still using the tent, which other than the zipper was well made.

There are a number of sources on the internet that discuss cleaning mildew from tents. While they may not be perfect methods, they might work well enough to save the tent.

I have tents that I have used regularly for about 20 years that while they are showing age and wear and tear, they are still serviceable. Like anything, they require care and maintenance. They can be cleaned (follow the instructions) at least to some degree, can be repaired, and can be treated to repell rain. Problem is that many tents are made of material that is not designed for rough use - instead they are designed to be light-weight and easy to carry and store.

As others have mentioned here, tents MUST be dry before they are stored. I actually hang mine from a clothes line after use to make sure the whole thing, including the ground tarp is dry before storage.

Tents should be set up and checked before use, and after use to check for moisture, damange, etc. They should be dried and repaired promptly.

Our council camps do not encourage personal/troop tents at summer camp, but they do not discourage them and do allow them. Many campers bring their own tents.

Many of our council summer camp tents (and in other council camps I have attended) are not in the best shape (I know, I know - give more to FOS so they can buy new tents). Most are not even erected properly and when we use them we often have to strike them and put them up properly. Seems like they just slap them up any where and way. Sometimes they set them up on inclines, and I saw one put up over a small ditch with the two platforms with one long edge each down in the ditch. We were asked once by some camp staff why we put up our own tents when there were seveal unoccupied camp tents in the site. We just told them to look at the camp tents and they looked and walked away without comment (they had helped put up the camp tents - by the way, the tents were set up much the same way the next year).

I attended one camp where the camp provided tents for the Scouts but not the Scouters. We had to bring our own.

Mosquito netting is in my opinion a bigger hassle than it is worth, but it does work. I have two of them, have used them, and prefer not to.

Personally, I have taken my own 8X10' tent the past 4 years to 2 different camps and much prefer it to the summer camp tents. Sometimes if there are extra wooden tent platforms, I set the tent up on those. My tent, my cot, my footlocker - no hassles with the camp over their equipment. I am very particular about my camping equipment and prefer to use my own for alot of different reasons. One is that I know it is in good operational condition and will serve me well.

Our unit Scouters almost always bring their own tents (we kind of set up an adult patrol site separate from but kind of located in the center of the all Scout patrol sites on almost all outings. Both the Scouts and Scouters prefer it like that.

We have one Scout who always takes one of the troop owned Eureka 2-man Timberline tents and lives in that all week - he says he likes it. Makes him happy so why not? Some of our Scouts take larger personal tents and two of them will share those. Some do use the summer camp tents - we leave it up to them. About half of our Scouts use camp tents, the other half use troop or personal tents. Our council does not provide cots so everyone brings their own if they want one. Our troop, like many in our area also usually take hammocks and if the mosquitoes and other insects aren't bad, we sometimes sleep in our hammocks.

Like most troops that attend summer camp, we pretty much have it down to a well established routine for all but first year campers.

For those who want to experience summer camp tents - have at it. I did that for years but since summer camp is also my annual summer vacation, I prefer to take my own.

Does your troop use tents provided by the summer camp, or bring their own?

Since mosquitos are bad in our part of the country, most of our troop started bringing their own tents about 4 years ago. The 9X7 tents provided by the camp are not screened. Some of us tried mosquito netting but it is a bit of a hassle.

Most of our adults have personal walk-in screened tents that are about 10X8 and many of the Scouts bring their own screened tents too. For some the reason to use their own tents was due to the mosquitos, some for privacy, and some just like to use their own. I use my own for all of these reasons.

A Scout is Clean

We rarely have any problem getting the Scouts to shower. For the most part, our Scouts are a pretty clean bunch.

Since most camps have some kind of shower facilities, there's not much reason not to shower. We deliberately picked a camp and campsite this year with hot showers right in the campsite.

The only issue we have had in the past is Scouts not wanting to take cold showers. Most camp swimming pools have hot showers.

Question:

Does a registered member of the Boy Scout of America (any program) HAVE to be a registered member of a Boy Scout Troop or Varsity Team to be a member of the Order of the Arrow?

What I am speaking of here, is after a qualified member has been elected/nominated, gone through the ordeal, and been inducted into the OA.

Some examples:

A qualified Boy Scout who has been inducted into the OA, but quits Boy Scouts and joins a Venturing Crew. Can they be a member of the OA and wear a lodge flap even though they are no longer registered in a Boy Scout troop?

A Venturing or Cub Scouting adult Scouter, who as a qualified Boy Scout or Varsity Scout or Boy Scout or Varsity Scout adult Scouter, who was properly elected/nominated and inducted into the OA as a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout or Scouter. Can they be a member of the OA and wear a lodge flap as long as they are registered dues paying member of their OA lodges even though they are no longer registered in a Boy Scout troop or Varsity team?

Regarding a clean OA sash.

Some may be of the opinion that a clean sash is the sign of an inactive OA member and a dirty sash is a sign of an active member.

Hmmm.

Would we also assume that a clean Scout uniform shirt is the sign of an inactive member and a dirty Scout uniform shirt is the sign of an active member?

My opinion:

A Scout is Clean

Same question as Hukehart:

What is a red and white?

I am presuming as one should probably never assume, that it is similar to a Blue and Gold Banquet in Cub Scouts?

Anyone out there know where I can find instructions for tying a double friendship knot?

I can tie a single, but just can't do type the double version.

Thanks.

I got the following Wood Badge Patrol colors from another source:

Beaver: Red

Bobwhite: Orange

Eagle: Yellow

Fox: Green

Owl: Blue

Bear: Black

Buffalo: Purple

Antelope: Brown

Congratulations!

Owl62

And a good old Owl too!

Does anyone know if there are designated "official" colors for Wood Badge Patrols?

I have seen a couple of different lists of colors for the patrols. The most recent is:

Beaver: Blue/Yellow

Bobwhite: White/Khaki

Eagle: Green/Black

Fox: Green/Yellow (Was told just green)

Owl: Blue/Blue (But I was also told Blue/Yellow or just blue)

Bear: Brown/Red

Buffalo: Red/White (Was told just purple)

Antelope: Khaki/Green

Apparently the colors go back to a time when patrols wore colored ribbon on their uniforms to denote their patrols.

Are there any official Wood Badge Patrol Colors today?

Thanks.