oldsm

I learned the on-time lesson very well from a beloved college professor many years ago.

I was the accompanist for the concert choir, which was made up of about 60 other students. I was also involved in several other activities that tended to make me sneak into rehearsals just in time.

Once, I was 5 minutes late. When I walked in, the conductor/professor was directing the rehearsal from the piano. Instead of stopping and letting me take my place at the piano, he indicated that I should wait until he was finished. It turned out that "finished" meant the end of the rehearsal, about an hour later. I never played the entire time and felt very much like a fish out of water.

Afterward, he took me aside and explained very kindly, but directly, that as a leader (for he and I together truly were a leadership team) I owed it to the entire choir to be ready to start on time. That it was not fair to those who showed up on time for me to be late and waste their time. That as a leader, I needed to set the example by being early.

I was never late for another rehearsal throughout my college career. It is extremely rare that I am late for any event. I despise lateness. I am almost always the first person to arrive, and too often the last to leave! For me, this applies whether I am a leader or a participant.

I have tried to instill in my own sons and their troop buddies the importance of being on time or (gasp!) early, of starting and ending on time. Sometimes I think the message is getting through. Sometimes I wonder.

I think it all boils down to how much importance a person places on an activity, and their concern for other people (think COURTEOUSness toward others and THRIFTY use of time).

We need to lead by example.

//aside//

How does "Timeless Values" fit in with this?!

//end aside//

I remember a lot of the old shows from my childhood: My Three Sons, Leave It to Beaver, etc. Wholesome stuff, although some modern-day apologists have to make the families back then seem dysfunctional. We kids weren't allowed to see Bonanza - our parents didn't approve of us seeing anyone shot with a gun or an arrow.

I have an antenna on the roof. I get CBS and NBC pretty well, and ABC and PBS sometimes (often to "snowy" to watch). The boys would like cable, but it's too expensive for what you don't get.

Packsaddle's comment about Spiro Agnew brought back memories. I went to the same high school that Spiro did: Forest Park High in Baltimore. He was about 32 years ahead of me! Most schools tout their "famous" graduates. FPHS gets to tout their "infamous" grad. Considering what Agnew was alleged to have done, he got off easy by today's standards. No jail time, just a $10,000 fine and probation (as VP). His actions as governor were never fully prosecuted. Still, his political career was ruined by his own greed.

//digression//

My high school alma mater did have another alum (actually, she dropped out at age 17) who I think compensated for Agnew: Ellen Naomi Cohen, aka Cass Elliot, aka Mama Cass. She was only 9 years ahead of me. I liked her music. It sure was better than what passes for music today!

FPHS also produced another well-known name: Barry Levinson, who has a string of minor and major successes as a television and film writer (The Carol Burnett Show) and director (Rain Man, Good Morning Vietnam).

Oh, yes, there was one more: ME! Oops! Correction: I'm not well known, just well worn.

//end digression//

I've had a few boys wait until they're almost 18 before earning Eagle (in one case, just a few hours shy of the date...sigh). So, if an SPL earns his Eagle and then turns 18, of course he would have to be an ASM as he would no longer be eligible to be either SPL or JASM. Other than that, I agree completely with OGE and Beavah

I believe that IF the people who have used copyrighted materials at their COH's, etc., have actually bought a license to use it (as in paid for a CD, or vinyl, or a download from iTunes, etc.), then using their copy for the COH is allowed under the doctrine of Fair Use. As long as they don't bundle it up and pass it along to other people.

Sort of like letting someone listen to your tunes on your iPod, or enjoy listening to music on the stereo in your house.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play on on any forum or TV show.

I should update what has transpired.

I met with the SPL (who was the one who witnessed the exchange). I offered to address the situation or, if he wanted, he could attempt to address it (I liked that idea due to the boy-run aspects and the idea of peer communication). I furthered offered a possible way to handle this along the lines of what Beavah suggested (a couple of "probationary position" options or a "delayed appointment" option). The SPL decided he wanted to try...

He gave it his best shot. Unfortunately, the scout quicly rejected the whole idea. The SPL reported back to me (while I was meeting with ASM's on some other matters) that the offer had been declined, and that the scout had told the SPL that if the SPL told me that he was angry about the situation and I subsequently said anything to him about attitude, he would be really upset.

A few minutes later I went to talk with the scout. I couldn't find him. Apparently, he had called his mother to come pick him up, leaving without letting any adults know. I called his house to find out if he was there and to ask a parent to join me at the meeting for a discussion. His dad (an ASM) answered the phone, proceeded to express his displeasure at his son being put on probation from the troop, the lack of support structure for his son, and so on. After I finally got a chance to respond, it became obvious that there was miscommunication between the boys. (I asked for a face-to-face meeting, but was turned down.) Now it has escalated to the family level.

The dad was questioning the SPL's authority to put a scout on probation. I explained that his membership was not probationary, just the offer of a troop appointment. The family is apparently considering whether or not they will continue to be involved with the troop. I related over the phone as best I could what had transpired when as I understood it, although I'm sure that some of it got lost in the emotion of the moment. I encouraged him to keep the lines of communication open.

Today I got an email from the dad that summarized the events as he understood them (reasonably accurately, I must say). But he was wanting more detail: exactly how the vote occurred, who said what to whom and when, etc.

"Please provide the Troop/BSA guidelines on dealing with allegations made by one scout upon another scout and describe how your handling of this matter was consistent with such. Additionally, please explain the review process you undertook and your rationale for recommending to [the SPL] that [his son] be offered a probationary troop position."

This has the potential to turn ugly. Ive shared this entire incident with 2 other ASMs and the CC, none of whom have expressed any disagreement with how things have transpired. In this case, perhaps Beavahs suggestion wasnt the best choice. Now I have to figure out how to respond to the dad.

Id really like to salvage the situation. this is a good kid and a good family. I hate dealing with situations like this through emails. Too much gets lost and no one gets the benefit of body language and voice tone.

Further suggestions, anyone?

In my council, the rule of thumb has been that it's 1/3 each for the product, the council, and the unit. Since council gives us the option of earning an additional 2% by opting out of the prizes, I assume that the prizes or extra commission come out of the council portion. That would mean that our breakdown is 33% product, 32% council, 35% unit (+/- 1% between product and council). Pretty darned good if you ask me!

Of course, if you sell Trails End Popcorn, your council will have taken care of all that paperwork for you. All you have to do is sell and reap your 30%+ profit...

Good questions, Gags.

My troop has sold popcorn for longer than I can remember. Some years have been better than others.

Historically, we usually have 2-3 boys who will compete with each other for top sales - usually over $1500 each. Some don't do anything.

We use popcorn sales as only one of 3 funding methods (outisde of $1/week dues). We also do a Council Hike for Scouting and 6-times-a-year bottle and can drives.

Of the popcorn money, all of the profit (35% in our Council -- our troop foregoes the cheap prizes for an extra 2%) goes directly to the troop account of the boy who earned it. Same with the hike money. The bottle drive money is divided between the the troop committee (35%) and the boys (65%), prorated on who worked how many hours.

These various funding methods give the boys incentives and alternatives to help pay their own way in scouting.

Popcorn has far better profit margins than other commercial products: 35% is almost unheard of! It makes it a lot easier for the boys to believe that they really can earn enough to pay for the summer camp, obtain their own backpacking stoves, lightweight tents, etc., etc.

I'm told by our present popcorn kernel that competing commercial fundraising products generally yield a profit of only 15-23%. And there's no benefit to the council, either.

Quite a number of my scouts have "repeat customers". My sons even have friends in school who approach them with "my Mom wants to know when you're going to come sell her some more popcorn". Incidentally, we do only the "take order" method, not the "show and sell".

In my experience, the boys who sell popcorn wind up being the more successful scouts.

A key part of making popcorn sales successful is to have an enthusiastic popcorn "colonel". I used to do it myself. Then I got smart and got another adult to do it. He did very well the 1st year, not nearly so well the 2nd year (due to some other issues). This year, I have a husband/wife parent team. The dad has owned his own business (and is primarily a salesman) for more than 20 years. His wife works the business with him. They have brought more excitement and enthusiasm into the sale than I could have hoped for. Weekly contests for "big poppie", challenges between patrols. Hints and suggestions on how to sell. Encouragement! They've also signed on for Salesmanship, American Business, and Entrepreneurship MBs for those who want to pursue them.

So yes, I would say that popcorn has definitely helped improve our program. Remember, too, that your Council benefits from the sales: it helps to fund the staff that provides the support you need.

Is the time worth it? Is the time to develop scouts worth it?

Those of us who have worked the program for years often bemoan the "high cost" of the products. That's a red herring, in my opinion. Some people will always find any price too high. Sure, prices go up, or the price stays the same but the quantity gets reduced a little. That's part of how our whole economic system works.

Rather than dwell on cost, train the scouts to sell the program: "supporting scouting", "helping me earn my own way", "helping boys scouts", etc. It's important for people to realize that they're not so much "buying popcorn" as they are "buying scouting".

Good luck to you.

OK, I understand about whether or not a patrol position "counts" toward rank advancement.

What about the patches?

ScoutNut, I should clarify a few points. It's easy to overlook some of the dynamics, especially when creating a long post and trying to relate only the most salient aspects.

1. The PL told his dad when they got home. I'm sure that no one wanted to look like a rat at the meeting with other people around. This boy is also a little on the shy side - not very assertive. His Dad called me the next evening. I think that was reasonable. I queried my own sons over the next 2 days (when I could speak with them indivudally and privately), then called the PL's dad back and told him my findings. We agreed then to simply wait and see if anything further developed or was mentioned by anyone.

2. As to why the SPL didn't say anything right then, he had been elected SPL only a few minutes earlier. He told me yesterday that he had not considered it to be a big deal, although he described it to me as "something of a small threat". The SPL mentioned it to me - reluctantly - only as part of a discussion that he and I were having about potential troop appointments. He told me that he had changed his mind about appointing the election loser to a troop POR, elaborating only when I pressed him to tell me more. He didn't see it as a big thing, although the PL did - enough, at least, to mention it to his dad. I don't see where you can infer from my post that the SPL "caught flack" from anyone. I think you might be reading to much into the situation. The SPL has had no communication about this siuation with anyone other than me.

3. No, I did not state that everything has been fine since a "slight behavior problem 2 years ago". Please reread my post. There have also been a number of other instances of lesser import since then that I did not want to burden forum members with (nor have I documented all of them - there's not that much time). I see this incident as being part of a continuum where an underlying problem occasionally periodically comes out of hibernation.

4. I applied the "bully" label only when the threat came into play. I think based on what I've read in these forums and others that the label applies. Do I really think that this lad would act on his threat? No. But I don't have a crystal ball. How many people have predicted that the "normal" people who have carried out recent school shootings would do so? If I don't act, and something does happen subsequently, am I not at fault for not having reacted? I have tried to be as objective as possible and have kept personal prejudices out of this. If anything, I have bent over backward to help this young lad and have given him the benefit of almost every doubt that has come along.

I am not on a "witch hunt" (my words) or trying to make life difficult for this young man. If anything, I've given him many opportunities to do extra, "privileged" things that some of the scouts think I perhaps should not have done (like asking him to be involved in a recent emergency services drill). But this is a situation that needs to be dealt with before it affects other boys negatively (the other incidents already have, as I have alluded to). I need to do something.

Perhaps WDL Mom's suggestion will work; I think it as some merit. I will think on it and will be interested to see what other constructive suggestions come along.

No, "Patrol Scribe" is not listed as a position, nor is "Troop Scribe". The requirement just says "Scribe".

I've always assumed that "Scribe" IMPLIED "Troop Scribe", but I can't find that in writing. So I wonder, especially when emphasizing the patrol method.

I haven't seen this addressed directly. If it has been, someone please direct to the thread or other source. Otherwise, I'll appreciate responses...

Star, Life, and Eagle ranks require 6 months in a position of responsibility. These are well defined in the Star requirements:

5. While a First Class Scout, serve actively for four months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility (or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop):

* Patrol leader,

* Assistant Senior Patrol Leader,

* Senior Patrol Leader,

* Troop Guide,

* Order of the Arrow Troop Representative,

* Den Chief,

* Scribe,

* Librarian,

* Historian,

* Quartermaster,

* Bugler,

* Junior Assistant Scoutmaster,

* Chaplain Aide, or

* Iinstructor.

Assistant Patrol Leader is excluded.

Most patrols that I've seen appoint a Patrol Scribe and a Patrol Quartermaster. If the unit is truly patrol-centric, then the patrol scribe and patrol quartermaster are likely accepting and demonstrating a greater degree of responsibility than the Troop Scribe and QM.

Questions:

1. Do (can) Patrol Scribe and Patrol QM meet the advancement requirement?

2. Can the Patrol Scribe and Patrol QM wear the position patches on their uniforms?

One part of me says that only "troop level" should count. But another part of me wants to encourage the patrol indepdence and self-sufficiency. We've been troop-centric too long. I finally have two boy leaders (a new SPL and a new PL) who came back from NYLTC just champing at the bit to strengthen the patrols. I'm excited for them and intend to support them in any way I can.

So what's the answer?

OGE, This is unlikely to be corroborated by additional sources - there are only a few boys in this patrol and some were not even present. I suspect that my boys didn't hear what was said because one was chatting with another patrol mate (go figure!) and the other had been assisting another patrol with something or other. To my way of thinking, waiting for another incident is not a good option. After all, bullies are often very good at hiding their actions, especially when they think that adults are watching.

Ed, I believe that there is no way that the SPL and PL are in cahoots with each other. While they are not close friends (as in they don't hang out with each other), they both live very much according the the Oath and Law. I know these families personally and have for quite a number of years - especially the SPL, who is loathe to say anything bad about anyone! He's almost too honest!

This will be a bit long, so please bear with me. I have been presented with a situation that has many potential resolutions. I'd like advice on what you see as the best course of action. Here's the situation.

I have 14-year-old Star scout who has been something of a low-key thorn in the side, and who has now appeared on the bullying horizon. This lad is generally a good kid, quite likeable, who has been troop QM (not very effectively) for the last year. His dad is one of the more active assistant SM's and his mother is on the troop committee. He has a younger brother who is quite the antithesis. The parents have been very supportive of scouting and are aware that their older son is not perfect.

Two years ago at summer camp there were several instances of improper behavior by our now-Star scout. They weren't major threats or anything requiring a nuclear response. They were generally more along the line of refusing to do his part or refusing to accept personal responsibility for his own actions. This understandably caused friction with his troop mates. Twice during that week I sat with the scout (and my assistant SM) to explore his attitude and get him back on the straight and narrow. The upshot was that he was to correct his ways, act appropriately for his age, and conduct himself according to the scout Oath and Law. We agreed that if he could control himself, that the matter would go no further and would be between the three of us. But that if there were additional incidents, they all would be made known to his parents. That worked for several months.

At a later weekend camping trip, the same scout started getting mouthy with other scouts, reverting back to his previous behaviors. When I learned about it, I again talked with him (with another adult present) and required him to be my personal shadow for the rest of the weekend. I told his father (when he arrived later the same day) what had transpired. He was totally supportive, and acknowledged that they had been dealing with some behavior issues at home. I think that relationships with other boys at middle school were a contributing factor to sending him to a private school instead of our local high school.

This past summer, the lad was a model camper for our entire week. Good enogh that I recomended him for the CIT program. He served 2 weeks and really enjoyed it. I got no untoward comments about his perfomance from the camp director or program staff whom I know.

Here's the present problem. Things have beein going along pretty well until last Tuesday when we had troop/patrol elections. Our Star scout was one of two boys running for PL in the senior patrol. He lost to another boy (by 1 vote, I'm told). These two boys have not been on particularly good terms over the years - they mostly try to avoid each other.

I got a call from the father of the winner (new PL), who is also an assistant SM. It seems that the new PL told his dad that the Star scout threatened the PL because the Star scout lost the election. Nothing big, just sort of like "I can take you outside in the parking lot" and making innuendos about undermining the new PL so that he wouldn't be successful.

I questioned my own two sons, who are members of the patrol, independently about the election process/results/reactions. No leading questions. Neither reported anything out of line from anyone. This made me wonder if the incident was being blown out of proportion by the new PL (who can be a bit whiny sometimes).

Last night I was talking with the new SPL about potential troop appointments (he was a member of the same patrol and was present during the patrol election). He mentioned that he had wanted to appoint the Star scout (our bully), to a troop position - even thinking ASPL. However, when he observed the scout's behavior and treatment of the new PL, he SPL figured that a person with an attitude olike that would not be very effective and would not be able to work well leading other scouts. I asked him what he meant, and he confirmed everything that the new PL's dad had reported to me. I am supporting the SPL's decision to appoint someone else.

I have documented all of these incidents in my personal notes.

All of this is background information for context. The question (and title of the post) is "What Should I Do?". I have searched these forums and come up with a number of threads that deal with bullying. The most relevant one seems to be this one: threadID=135948#id_135948. But there are dynamics in my situation that seem to muddy the course of action.

* G2SS

* Parents in leadership positions

* Younger brother in troop

* Don't want to lose either of the boys or either of the parents

* Cannot permit bullying behavior to continue, both for safety issues and effective operation of the unit

I could:

* Counsel the youth again with another assistant SM present. One point to emphasize could be that his actions are directly affecting his opportunities to demonstrate leadership. But this might seem like another inconsequential event.

* Have one of his parents present as silent observer during the counseling (silent would be hard for either parent).

* Have a meeting with both the bully and the new PL with all of their parents present as observers.

* Refer the matter to the troop committee for their action. The committee is unaware of the previous incidents, although I believe I related the first summer camp incidents to the CC in passing (not for any review or action). Remember that mom sits on the committee.

Our next troop meeting is tomorrow (Tuesday) and I feel as though I need to "strike while the iron is hot". I would appreciate your opinions on the best way to proceed, given the history I've described. Thanks for taking the time to read this historical accounting and post your comments.

I think that sometimes we succeed. We lean on Scout Spirit at scout functions, and I think most of us know intuitively what we mean. However, "scout spirit" doesn't generally show up on the radar of people outside the scouting program.

On the other hand, most people understand "character".

Yesterday my eldest son, who at 18 has had his driver license for about 6 months, gently scraped the neighboring car while backing out of his parking space at school. I'm sure he uttered an expletive to himself. He was alone and there were no witnesses. He immediately went into the school office to find out whose car he had hit. He then called my wife for advice (insurance, etc.). The school located the other car's driver, whose dad eventually showed up at the school.

The school principal and the dad both kept remarking how he "demonstrated such good character" by reporting the incident and owning up to it. They also pointed out that many people would not have said anything and just driven off. (There was no mention of "scout spirit".)

Maybe, just maybe, this scout spirit is really helping him to develop good character. I am proud of him.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucac/20061005/cm_ucac/

WHO KNEW CONGRESSMAN FOLEY WAS A CLOSETED DEMOCRAT?

Wed Oct 4, 8:03 PM ET

At least liberals are finally exhibiting a moral compass about something. I am sure that they'd be equally outraged if Rep. Mark Foley (news, bio, voting record) were a Democrat.

The object lesson of Foley's inappropriate e-mails to male pages is that when a Republican congressman is caught in a sex scandal, he immediately resigns and crawls off into a hole in abject embarrassment. Democrats get snippy.

Foley didn't claim he was the victim of a "witch-hunt." He didn't whine that he was a put-upon "gay American." He didn't stay in Congress and haughtily rebuke his critics. He didn't run for re-election. He certainly didn't claim he was "saving the Constitution." (Although his recent discovery that he has a drinking problem has a certain Democratic ring to it.)

In 1983, Democratic congressman Gerry Studds was found to have sexually propositioned House pages and actually buggered a 17-year-old male page whom he took on a trip to Portugal. The 46-year-old Studds indignantly attacked those who criticized him for what he called a "mutually voluntary, private relationship between adults."

When the House censured Studds for his sex romp with a male page, Studds -- not one to be shy about presenting his backside to a large group of men -- defiantly turned his back on the House during the vote. He ran for re-election and was happily returned to office five more times by liberal Democratic voters in his Martha's Vineyard district. (They really liked his campaign slogan: "It's the outfit, stupid.")

Washington Post columnist Colman McCarthy referred to Studds' affair with a teenage page as "a brief consenting homosexual relationship" and denounced Studds' detractors for engaging in a "witch-hunt" against gays: "New England witch trials belong to the past, or so it is thought. This summer on Cape Cod, the reputation of Rep. Gerry Studds was burned at the stake by a large number of his constituents determined to torch the congressman for his private life."

Meanwhile, Foley is hiding in a hole someplace.

No one demanded to know why the Democratic speaker of the House, Thomas "Tip" O'Neill, took one full decade to figure out that Studds was propositioning male pages.

But now, the same Democrats who are incensed that Bush's National Security Agency was listening in on al-Qaida phone calls are incensed that Republicans were not reading a gay congressman's instant messages.

Let's run this past the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals: The suspect sent an inappropriately friendly e-mail to a teenager -- oh also, we think he's gay. Can we spy on his instant messages? On a scale of 1 to 10, what are the odds that any court in the nation would have said: YOU BET! Put a tail on that guy -- and a credit check, too!

When Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee found unprotected e-mails from the Democrats about their plan to oppose Miguel Estrada's judicial nomination because he was Hispanic, Democrats erupted in rage that their e-mails were being read. The Republican staffer responsible was forced to resign.

But Democrats are on their high horses because Republicans in the House did not immediately wiretap Foley's phones when they found out he was engaging in e-mail chitchat with a former page about what the kid wanted for his birthday.

The Democrats say the Republicans should have done all the things Democrats won't let us do to al-Qaida -- solely because Foley was rumored to be gay. Maybe we could get Democrats to support the NSA wiretapping program if we tell them the terrorists are gay.

On Fox News' "Hannity and Colmes" Monday night, Democrat Bob Beckel said a gay man should be kept away from male pages the same way Willie Sutton should have been kept away from banks. "If Willie Sutton is around some place where a bank is robbed," Beckel said, "then you're probably going to say, 'Willie, stay away from the robbery.'"

Hmmmm, let's search the memory bank. In July 2000, the New York Times "ethicist" Randy Cohen advised a reader that pulling her son out of the Cub Scouts because they exclude gay scoutmasters was "the ethical thing to do." The "ethicist" explained: "Just as one is honor bound to quit an organization that excludes African-Americans, so you should withdraw from scouting as long as it rejects homosexuals."

We need to get a rulebook from the Democrats:

# Boy Scouts: As gay as you want to be.

# Priests: No gays!

# Democratic politicians: Proud gay Americans.

# Republican politicians: Presumed guilty.

# White House press corps: No gays, unless they hate Bush.

# Active-duty U.S. military: As gay as possible.

# Men who date Liza Minelli: Do I have to draw you a picture, Miss Thing?

This is the very definition of political opportunism. If Republicans had decided to spy on Foley for sending overly friendly e-mails to pages, Democrats would have been screaming about a Republican witch-hunt against gays. But if they don't, they're enabling a sexual predator.

Talk to us Monday. Either we'll be furious that Republicans violated the man's civil rights, or we'll be furious that they didn't.

Welcome to the forums. You will find that there is a tremendous amount of help here. This community exists to aid each other. Learn from others, and don't be hesitant to offer your own perspectives. That's how we all help the forum stay relevant.

In response to your question, the easiest online place to obtain official scout uniform parts and materials is from the BSA's National Supply Division.

Their website is www.scoutstuff.org.

There is a link to uniforms right on the home page that will take you directly to all the things that go into a Webelos uniform

Webelos have the option of wearing either the Cub Scout blue uniform or the Boy Scout tan uniform. If it were my den just getting into a uniform, I'd probably opt for the tan uniform. With a little luck the boys won't grow too much (yeah, right!) and you can avoid having to buy a new uniform as soon as they transition in to Boy Scouts.

If these are all 1st-year Webelos, then maybe the blue uniform will help them identify more with the other dens in the pack, but their next uniform will probably need to be the tan one. You might want to talk to the boys and their parents.

I hope this helps.

Not sure where I picked this up, but I learned somewhere that you should not pee on a tree (day or night). The reason is that the salts left behind after the urine evaporates or is absorbed by the bark attracts animals (think deer) that then lick and chew on the tree, causing damage to it. Instead of a tree, use a rock. It spatters the urine so there's not as much concentration, and a rock won't be hurt by being licked.

Regarding corporal punishment: my daughter recently began teaching in North Carolina. She was shocked to learn that corporal punishment is still permitted (with a witness), and has had several parents encourage her not to hesitate to use it. Not sure what jurisdiction (county perhaps?) still permits this in a public school. What happened to political correctness? Just my $.02.(This message has been edited by oldsm)

A true friend won't care or notice whether you cleaned at all!

Gonzo, this is not meant to argue. It's just that there's usually more than one side to a story.

Precooked food has its place. Think backpacking and Leave No Trace. Where to put all the grease that cooks out of sausage and bacon? It's not healthful to eat, and it's a mess to haul out, no matter how hard you try to stay clean. Precooked also minimizes prep time - too often cooking takes up an inordinate amount of time on an outing. Keep it simple and the outing is more fun for everyone.

Snacks for between meals? Absolutely. Every scout should Be Prepared with his own small stash of snacky stuff for between meals. Think Clif Bars, GORP, and the like (not candy bars, Gatorade and so forth). Depending upon activity and a person's own metabolism, there can be a real physical need for added nutrition between meals. A quick nibble mid-afternoon or whenever can do a lot to stave off hunger and keep the body working. This is especially important in cold weather. Note that every boy should carry his own. Snacks are not a menu item. A good Scout will also be willing to share his own with someone else.

A couple of years ago we decided to try something different. Instead of doing a weekend camping trip geared to the Webelos, we do a day hike. We're fortunate to have some well-blazed trails in our area with varied terrain (moderate-to-steep slopes, stream crossings, some scrambling), and my troop likes to do backpacking.

We take the Webelos on a hike of suitable length, maybe 1-3 miles depending upon the group. The Boy Scouts travel with full backpacks. We ask the Webelos to carry day packs (usually a school backpack). Each person carries their own water, mess kit, rain gear, etc., but we try to keep it very light for the Webs, although we do let them take "ownership" by having each of them carry some of the food.

We pair each Webelos with one or more of the Boy Scouts. The boys lead the hike, teaching compass skills, how to read blazes, tree identification, water filtration/treatment, etc., along the way. Midway, we stop for a backpacking lunch (always including soup or ramen or some such thing cooked quickly and easily on backpacking stoves. The young guys really enjoy seeing how they can enjoy a tasty lunch with only minimal effort.

All of the parents hike together in the back - sometimes quite a way behind. That gives our adult leaders a chance to talk with the prospective parents, and lets the Webelos have fun with the boys they're [hopefully] going to be joining.

Doing this kind of hike is a lot less work than a camping trip. Most of the Cubs in my area have already done first aid stuff, foil dinners, and the like, so this is really different for them. It has worked very well for us.

GKM, what you describe undoubtedly yields an extremely nice result - no visible stitches, no gaps. I'm glad you have the patience to do that - I wish I did. But I don't, so I cheat and use the machine. Thanks for sharing such explicit directions.

The transparent thread does tend to break a little if you're not careful, but if you don't try to hurry it works pretty well. For those of you who haven't tried it, transparent thread is sort of like fine fishing line.

So the green tie did exist. The question no one has answered: Can it still be worn? (Without running afoul of the UP?)

Thanks, OGE, for the quick response. Do you know when it was discontinued as an official uniform item? Or if it can still be worn? I think we might be about to get a suggestion that we adult leaders all adopt them...

Does anyone recall a plain dark green necktie as part of the scouter's uniform?

One assistant scoutmaster says that BSA once had this for "dress" occasions like Courts of Honor. They are not offered by the Supply Division, so he found one that he says is the same thing. It does make the uniform look much more formal than either a troop neckerchief or a bolo.

The only neckties presently available through National are intended for wear with civies, particularly a blue blazer. The only people I've ever seen wearing them are professionals.

This isn't a major hot button item. I'm just curious.