oldsm

Perhaps this has been discussed elsewhere, but I haven't seen it. So here goes...

I understand that list of MB counselors needs to be kept current, but I have not seen any written policy as to HOW that is to be done. My district, supposedly at the direction of the local council, is requiring all MB counselors to complete a new Adult Application every year, complete with references, etc., in order to "renew" their status as a counselor. Interestingly, they DO NOT have to fill out a new MB Counselor Application (where they list the merit badges and their qualifications).

As registered scouters, we do not have to fill out a new Adult Application every year at charter renewal time - we just pay our money and get renewed on the charter.

The MB counselor "re-up" requirement applies to those of us who are registered scouters, too, as well as to counselors "outside" the program.

Given the fact that most of us in the local district already know each other and the district advancement chairperson, and usually know the non-scouter counselors and whether or not they intend to continue, it seems a bit onerous to require everyone to fill out the Adult Application again. It should be possible to handle a lot of this on a phone call or email basis. In fact, we have lost some excellent MB counselors because they don't want the aggravation of filling out the application again. I suspect that they're trying to send a message to the local council, but it winds up hurting the boys who could otherwise benefit from their expertise.

I'm curious to know how other councils handle MB counselor renewals.

My council has 3 boy scout camps and one cub scout camp.

The CS camp runs summer-long programs of varying lengths. Some are 5 days/4 nights, some are 4-days/3 nights. There are Cub-Parent Weekends, and a Family Camping Weekend. In all cases, the tentage is the same as that used at the BS camps.

Staffing at the CS camps is both adult and boy scouts (paid, of course). For the resident camps (5- and 4- days), each pack provides 2 leaders (at least one trained). Basically they are responsible for shepherding the boys around, but they don't have to provide the program.

I did 5 years of CS resident camp. It was good for the boys, and it was good for me, too. Then I moved in to boy scouts where it's even more fun, especially since the boys pretty much take care of themselves.

The biggest problem has always been the parents who couldn't bear to let their son out of their sight for a few days. (sigh...)

anndeedee, thank you so much for seeing the difference in maturity level and slowing down on the web2 program.

I remember from my days as a den leader that I saw way too many Web leaders compressing the Webelos program. It is designed to be a 2-year program. When it's compressed in to 18 months or less, the boys are the ones who get cheated. Then they often get crossed into a troop that they're not mature enough to join, and most of them drop out within a relatively short time.

I believe that the troop/den interaction during the Web2 year serves two purposes: 1) to entice the boys so that they'll stay in the program, and 2) to show adults like you why it's not wise to push them into an early program shift.

Congratulations for seeing this, and thanks for sharing your insight with us.

You mentioned little exposure to the boy scout troop.

I know firsthand that there is often a "disconnect" between different units. In my town there are 2 packs and 2 troops. It used to be that each pack "fed" one troop, although that seems not to be the case now. Where the disconnect comes in is that pack leadership seems to change very frequently (every year), so it's unclear as to who to contact in a pack. I've also seen pack leadership that reaches the burnout point and can't wait not to have anything more to do with scouting - just as soon as AOL is out of the way. That makes it difficult to coordinate meaningful pack/troop interaction for AOL and crossovers.

Needless to say, interaction between Cubs and Boys strengthens both programs and ultimately benefits the boys.

I suspsect that everyone in every unit is so busy concentrating on their own program that they assume that "someone else" is taking care of inter-unit cooperation. Perhaps someone (who? me?!) should be asked to take on pack/troop relations as a routine "opportunity".

Good luck.

In my experience (and that's all it is), membership drives don't work very well. We've tried school communication, newspaper presence...a lot of work for almost no result.

I think a lot of the reason is that by the time boys reach 6th grade, they're too well established in organized sports: baseball, soccer, basketball, track, cross-country, karate, tennis, you name it. So many of these boys and their parents are caught up in the sports-is-everything mentality. Oh, a few kids manage to do both scouting and a sport, but they're few and far between. They quickly find out that scouting is more than 1 hour a week!

The best results for us with expanding membership have been crossover from Cubs, word-of-mouth, and constant "presence". Let me explain.

If you make a concerted effort for your troop to interact with boys in Cub Scouts, they will have a chance to see what lies in store for them after crossover: more fun, more things to do, they get to plan outings, hang with the "big guys", etc. And they're already comfortable with the concept of scouting, so it's not like they're joining an unknown entity.

We encourage boys in the troop to bring their friends. Boys who join as a result of being personally invited by someone they know and respect become "keepers"; that is, they tend to stay in the troop instead of dropping out quickly.

By presence, I mean letting the community know who you are. Newspaper articles about service projects, fundraisers, courts of honor, outings all have a tag at the end mentioning our CO and letting people know that boys are are always welcome to join (along with a contact phone number). It means participating in things like Memorial Day parades (looking good in full uniform, straight lines, solemnity), Veterans Day observations, assisting with local emergency preparedness drills, etc. The word will get out about your troop.

You didn't state how large your troop is. When I became SM, we were down to about 5 or 6 boys. I was anxious to have at least 3 or 4 patrols plus the boy leadership. My predecessor wisely counselled me against trying for too much growth, explaining that membership is cyclical (years ago there were about 50 boys in the troop). He emphasized that quality was more important than quantity. "People will see what kind of troop you have, and they'll go after the quality."

With the exception of one year when we crossed 13 boys into the troop from Cubs, most of our growth has been 2-3 boys at a time. Attrition is minimal. We now have 25 active boys who are all well on the way to becoming tomorrow's community leaders.

What has worked for my troop may or may not work for yours. I believe that the keys to growth are are patience and perseverance, which aren't always easy to maintain in this day of wanting immediate gratification.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, scoutldr.

Maybe I didn't express myself clearly, but I agree that it is very important that scouts learn to earn the means to pay their own way in life - certainly in scouting. But I don't think that it out-ranks so many of the other things that scouting tries to achieve. Yes, a scout is thrifty, but that also means that he learns not to waste what he has, to care for personal and community equipment, etc.

With a half-dozen fundraisers a year, and without the distinction that I mentioned, a boy conceivably could be considered "active" in his troop without ever attending a single troop or patrol meeting, or without ever going on a camping trip, or learning any of the other skills that are central to scouting.

We just turned in summer camp registrations. All of the boys in my troop paid at least some of their camp fees from the fundraisers. A few paid ALL of the summer camp fees and have funds remaining to help pay their way to other scouting events. And they all are active, participating members of their troop.

Your mileage may differ.

Just found this thread, even though it's a little old...

My troop distinguishes between "fund raisers" and so-called "scouting outings". For advancement purposes, being "active" means participating in troop/patrol hikes, camping trips, service projects, and the like.

However, when the primary objective of an activity is to fund the troop's operation or enable the boys to earn money for summer camp, that doesn't count as an "outing". The entire troop understands that in this case the benefit is the financial reward, which is different from the primary objectives of scouting. Examples: selling popcorn, conducting bottle drives, etc. The one exception: Hike for Scouting when we typically go camping after the "official" hike has been completed.

I think this helps the boys understand the difference between desired scouting outcomes and mundane finances.

One of my pet peeves has to do with the extremely common use of the expression "Oh, my God" or one of its derivatives.

I have heard this expression used by youth, by parents, by scouters - just about everyone, it seems. Even clergy.

I was brought up to understand that using these words comprised actually addressing God, as in a prayer or supplication. Any other use was considered blasphemous: "Do not take the name of God your Lord in vain. God will not allow the one who takes His name in vain to go unpunished." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Text_of_the_commandments)

In my house, we do not use this expression. However, I find it offensive when I have to listen to God being denigrated by such a large part of contemporary society.

Maybe there should be a whole series of SM minutes dealing with language, slang, cursing, etc., and how we are perceived. Sort of like commercials on TV: a single viewing won't do much, but enough repetition will influence a sizeable number of people to buy the Ginzu knives.

I'm chuckling at the thought of ending the my next SM minute with "But wait, there's more..." or "to be continued next week..."

These comments are right on target. My troop had its problems when we first came into it a number of years ago, very much like KSscoutmom's. Today it's a vibrant troop that I would hold up against just about any other.

What changed?

1. The troop brought back a former SM who understood the program. He worked with the PLC and reestablished a sense of value and the importance of applying the Oath and Law.

2. Enough parents were "on board" with the need for change that the message got through to the boys via multiple channels.

Even after that, we still had a couple of boys who were disrespectful (of their peers, of adults, even of their own parents). SM conferences were ineffective, but we did not kick them out. Instead we presented the boys (all of them, since there were only about 10-12 at the time) with a challenge. We said, "You've got a problem with behavior and respect. What can you do to fix it?" Over the course of two weeks, the BOYS came up with a list of specific behaviors that were considered unacceptable, ranging from swearing to being disruptive, to lying, and fighting. Then they came up with a sequence of escalating consequences. These always started with things that the boys could impose themselves, only eventually rising to the level where an adult had to be brought in. Of course, the overriding message was that conduct is expected to comply with the principles espoused in the Oath and Law. But those boys who had trouble with interpretation could see their own shortcoming identified in black and white.

The boys then took the "behavior policy" to the Troop Committee, who endorsed it wholeheartdely. A key factor was to have EVERY BOY AND HIS PARENTS read and sign the policy, sort of like a contract that is kept on file. We have all new scouts and parents sign it, too. The effect is that it puts every boy on the same level of expectation.

The result: the 2 boys who were the bane of the troop chose other paths, because the other boys wouldn't abide their behavior. Only 2 or 3 times have the boys had to "resort" to invoking consequences, and then it was only at the the very mildest level.

Only once did an adult have to get involved, and that was only after the boys did exactly what they should have done (it was a case of a scout signing off on his own advancement requirements by forging another scout's signature, then denying that he'd done it, but that's another story).

OK - this is a lot of words. But in my opinion, we often get caught up in the boy-run aspect of scouting and forget that it is also ADULT GUIDED. Without guidance from strong adults, the result can be anarchy.

Hang in there. You can make more of a difference than you know.

Short a tent? Whatever happened to the Scout motto?

I do know that neither of my sons ever wanted to share a tent with me in Scouts. They'd much rather be with their patrols. Then again, I'm usually exiled to the next county(!) to dissipate the somnolent nasal music.

The wall chart is an excellent vehicle to use for several reasons:

1. Posted in a conspicuous place, it engenders a bit of subtle competition among the boys. For example, if one scout sees that another scout has completed a lot more requirements than he himself has, he might get a little more focused on his own advancement.

2. My troop lets each boy add his own advancement to the chart as soon as it has been signed off in his scout handbook. This is a great bit of incentive for the boys. It gives them a sense of ownership in their advancement by providing immediate recognition.

3. It lets other people (like members of your CO) see what your troop is doing. It's a great bit of quiet "advertising". The CO gets to see how many boys you're serving, and the fact that they are progressing and growing. That can help with CO relationships.

My scouts like the chart, and so do their parents.

A caveat: I would not use the wall chart as a primary record of advancement. It's too easy for someone to inadvertently make an entry on the wrong person's line, or be less than trustworthy by claiming more than he has done, or even forgetting to write on a valid achievment. For "official" records, I would still go by the individual handbooks, patrol record books, and TroopMaster or whatever else you use.

Soccer, schmoccer.

Where's the future in that? Probably about the same place as is is for all those "stars" that think they're going to win a full scholarship to play NCAA basketball in college and become a 1st-round draft pick in the NBA. Ha!

An Eagle will look a lot better on college applications than a select soccer team membership.

So, to Its Me: I think you see where those of us who believe in the program AND ARE WILLING TO MAKE IT WORK stand on the issue. But ultimately, you AND YOUR SON need do decide.

To everyone else: I think we all know that Scouting just isn't "right" for every boy. As much as we all treasure the wonderful things that scouting has to offer, and as much as every boy really needs what Scouting offers, we'll never "save" all the boys. Perhaps this is one that we should be thankful doesn't continue. I'm sure we all need parents who are constantly complaining, whose kids show up irregularly and then wonder why they're not advancing, and generally become a thorn in the side. I say let Its Me go, and let's concentrate our efforts on those who appreciate our efforts. After all, as highly trained, exorbitantly paid volunteers, our time is valuable. Let's make OUR investment count.

Call it sour grapes, but you can't win every argument. I prefer to choose my battles.

OK, we all get tired from trying to do too much. In my case:

Son #1: Started with Tigers, is now 17 1/2 and working on Eagle. Plays varsity tennis, hangs with friends, gets involved in some extra-curricular school activities from time to time, goofs off, and is a darned good Scout. Has served as Patrol Leader (more than once, beginning at age 11 right after crossover) and is presently Historian. Very knowledgeable and responsible (although a little less time on computer games would be fine with me). Active in OA, also works summers at Council camp. Attended 2001 Jambo; 2005 Jambo as staff. Active in church, too.

Son #2: Started with Tigers, is now almost 15 and working on Eagle (closer than his older brother). Has evening class at HS once a week (can't be scheduled during the day), drama club, community theatre, cycles a lot, very active in OA, also works at Council camp. Has served as PL, SPL (two years), presently Scribe. Attended Junior Leader Trainng Camp. Attended 2005 Jambo. Is BSA Lifeguard and par tof a new District Medical Corps. Active in church.

Me: Started Cubs with son #1, became Den Leader right after Tigers, then ADDED Cubmaster 2 years later. We had a non-existent Committee (on paper only!), so I was de facto CC as well. Because Assistant SM when son #1 crossed into Troop (try wearing 3 hats (DL, CM, SA) - THAT's too much. Became SM about 3 years ago in a troop that is very active, supports Council/District events, has solid growth and a stellar reputation, have served on District training events, chaired a District leadership conference (for adults). Oh, I also have a full-time job with a 1-hour commute, and a 2nd job as a church organist and choir director (try balancing that against weekend outings).

My wife: a great supporter of all of the above.

Burnout can happen. I've been close a few times. But then I look at what I'm doing, and it all comes back into perspective. I can never figure out what to give up or scale back (although I'm no longer in Cubs).

My "real" job pays the bills, as does the church work.

The church work I love - it's part of who I am.

Scouting probably provides the most satisfaction of all: watching boys grow and mature, learning life skills, watching out for and encouraging each other, teaching younger scouts - even teaching cold-weather camping skills to adults. The friendships are priceless. I probably will be one of those people who stays active in scouting long after my own boys have moved on. The "pay" might not be in dollars, but there's an immeasurable value that I will always treasure.

I could be watching a movie, or taking it easy tonight, but instead I'm exploring these forums to get ideas about how to help improve our local troop program. I love this one-hour-a-week.

A previous post alluded to the differences between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. In my experience, its 180 degrees different! I believe that Den Leaders have one of the toughest jobs in all of Scouting. You have to plan all of the meetings, then implement them (often with little help or support from parents), while the kids go along for the ride. As soon as they move into Boy Scouts, the troop (not you) should be teaching them how to plan their own programs, handle their own advancements, and carry out their own camping trips. We adults just go along for the ride! (OK, that's a little simplified, but you get the idea.)

I hope you'll find a way to recharge yourself. If your son wants to stay active in scouting, he'll appreciate your support and encouragement, regardless of your own role. The benefits are just too good to let slip away. Good luck.

Our RT isn't until the 1st Monday in May, so I haven't had a chance to ask yet. I know our Council doesn't do anything like this, nor does our District. But I might be able to get something going by making the need known.

The oldest won't age out until late October. Scheduling is a problem because our troop goes to summer camp the 1st week of July, and two of the boys are on staff at 2 different Council camps, which means they have to report at least a week before; that also kills most of the summer. And, of course, school isn't over here until mid-late June, thanks to too many vacations and snow days during the year! Neither of those boys wants to miss camp employment for the MB, because they're already losing over a week going to the National OA Conference in July/August. Sometimes, boys get too involved (sort of like us adults!).

The sad thing is, the boys started this MB last July. It's been really hard to get it finished (really, just the scheduling issues and not wanting to make this a December trek), so that's why I'm trying to intervene on their behalf.

Thanks to all for your suggestions.

Vigil-Hiker,

BP MB requirement 11a states: "Write a plan for a backpacking trek of at least five days using at least three different campsites and covering at least 30 miles. Your plan must include a description of and route to the trek area, schedule (including a daily time control plan), list of food and equipment needs, safety and emergency plan, and budget." Requirement 9a says to "Write a plan for a patrol backpacking hike that includes a time control plan", and 9e says "While carrying your pack, complete a hike of at least 2 miles" -- hardly the same scope as 11a. There is nothing that says the 30-miler is required to be a group endeavor.

I believe you'll find in earlier posts that we already considered the adult trade-offs, which included working around long weekends, and the the problems we have encountered. Your own situation illustrates that quite well.

Summer Camp is a different situation: that's something that is planned MONTHS, even a YEAR, ahead so that we generally have 2 adults who do take a week of vacation time to cover camp. One or two others might rotate in and out from year to year. Summer Camp also benefits the entire troop, not just 4 boys, so there's a different perceived order of magnitude between the two.

I don't know yet what is going to happen with BP merit badge....

There's an alternative to having a troop do the crossover. Why not ask/invite the local Order of the Arrow to conduct it?

I've seen this done frequently in our District, and it works well, as there's a "disinterested party" crossing the boys into any one of several local troops. And to be politically correct, they sometimes "bridge" boys into "life" - meaning that they're dropping out of scouting. (PC is one of my pet peeves.)

The OA will benefit: they like pageantry and likely have regalia, etc. They're always looking for service opportunities. The burden doesn't fall on the boys in any one troop. And it gives greater visibilty to another part of the Scouting program.

I've never seen this, either. I just tried Googling for it, with questionable results. Other than a handful of BSA COUNCIL websites, the hits seem to be personal ones. There was one that appeared to be Girl Scouts, but the link didn't work. I certainly did not see any "hits" from BSA national.

Do BSA Councils have the leeway to create "official" awards that can be worn on the uniform as insignia (temporary or otherwise)?

I really, really like the idea of having the troop scribe update TroopMaster.

I haven't actually used the new 2005 on-line version (Troomaster DotNet 2005), but it is structured to address the privacy issues. From their website (http://www.troopmaster.com/products/troopmaster/dotnet.html):

For each Data Access Password, simple checkbox options allow you to block users with that password from even being able to see sensitive data items, such as social security numbers and driver's licenses. There's a separate checkbox for each sensitive data item, so you have full control.

Perhaps this is not the correct forum for a TM discussion, but I believe is provides a good solution to the problem.

VinceC,

Relationships are everything. From what I'm gleaning, your pack has been operating a vacuum, which Nature abhors.

Although it will take some consistent effort over time, I believe that the situation could be salvaged. But it will take time, persistence, and graciousness. Essentially, what you need to do is create and deliver a "marketing campaign" aimed at "selling" the church on the advantages TO THEM of being the chartering organization for your pack. A one-shot attempt won't do anything.

That said, if I were in your shoes, I would find someone in the pack who is a member of the church (or who at least attends), who could work the "back channels" to find out the names of the key people you need to speak with. It might or might not be your COR. Invite them to a pack meeting, or a couple of den meetings so that they can see the good work you are doing firsthand. Talk up the program, and keep things as positive as you possibly can.

In time, you can broach the subject of "we could be more effective if ... [enter item from your wish list: newsletter articles, freedom from persecution, greater involvement from COR, etc.]". Then let the back-channel person work for you.

It's also a BIG help to get to know the clergy and the secretary personally. A friendly, human face is an enormous plus.

If this approach is more than you want to bite off, or if it doesn't work, then you'll probably need to follow the charter-transfer advice so well stated by others in this forum.

In my troop's case, the CO provides us with meeting space. We have regularly-scheduled use of the fellowship hall. If we need more space (such as for Committee meetings, BORs, etc., we can usually just find a vacant classroom. They also give us bulletin board space where we can display our charter (framed), pictures of our activites, post our advancement chart, and display certificates we get for service projects. I'm told that a lot of people do look at it during coffee hour. Our COR has traditionally had very little involvement - not much more than a figurehead. When the last one moved away, we got one of the parents of a scout (who is a member of the church), to be the new COR. I have been on a first-name basis with the pastor, secretary, and other staff (including the custodian!) for years. They all know the quality of the program our troop runs. And we ALWAYS leave the place cleaner than we found it!

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I really believe that it's the personal relationships and bridge-building that makes COs proud to sponsor scouting units.

Good luck to you.

orennoah,

What a great idea with the naming game. Wish I'd thought of that.

I do have to chuckle at your definition of "classical", because it's so different from mine.

My definition is basically the old long-hairs: Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, and earlier - generally composers pre-1900. It also includes "contemporary" or "modern" music composed in similar styles. This is probably because I was raised on that style of music, and my education concentrated on "serious" composers.

The composers/artists you mentioned fall into what I would classify as "classic rock", but certainly not "classical".

Maybe I'm old-fashioned in my musical tastes, but I think that I'm doing my part to preserve world heritage when I exposed young people to music that has withstood the test of time measured in centuries rather than decades. Just my opinion.

Certainly your choices are better than most of the tripe that is being produced today. Values, anyone?

I suspect that most scoutmasters have experienced from time to time the same challenge that I do: coming up with a meaningful Scoutmaster Minute every week. I've been through these forums and others, and often find something that I can use. Sometimes, the more effective ones are those that are completely extemporaneous, based on something that might have transpired during that very meeting.

It's always awkward, I think, to use someone else's Minute, because no matter how well thought-out they are, the words are not my own. I refuse to read Minutes at a closing: it seems insincere. So I paraphrase. Most of the time it works. My own sons usually let me know on the way home if that night's minute "bombed" or soared (rarely), or was just OK.

A few weeks ago, I stumbled upon a quote by Kurt Vonnegut. It clicked, and I wrote a Minute that I used at the conclusion of our last Court of Honor. I thought it decent, but apparently the parents thought otherwise; it was followed by applause (never happened even once in the last 3+ years I've been SM).

Here it is, in case anyone wants to use it, borrow from it, etc. It probably wasn't delivered verbatim, but the points were all there.

====================

CLOSE TO THE EDGE

America has often been referred to as the land of opportunity. The longer Im around, the more I believe that this statement is quite true. If youre willing to work hard enough, you can do just about anything you want to.

Most of you boys probably have no idea what you want to pursue in terms of a job or a career. You still have time to decide. But consider the possibilities:

We live in an exciting time!

My sons are starting to receive career education information from colleges all over the country. One publication recently talked about the future of the medical field. There are and will continue to be enormous opportunities. New drugs to fight diseases are constantly being developed. New techniques are being tried to improve health and reduce cost. Maybe you could be the researcher who finds a cure for cancer, or finds the key to immunizing against viruses.

Space exploration is filled with discovery. The Mars rovers are still sending back enormous amounts of data about that planet. Someone had to conceive, develop, build, launch, and control those vehicles. Bright minds. The Cassini/Huygens space probe, which has traveled about 3 billion miles over 9 years to circle the planet Saturn, has recently sent back pictures that indicate the possibility of subterranean water on one of Saturns moons. Other scientists have managed to capture particles of solar wind and returned them to earth. The same with comet particles, which might yield clues into the origin of the solar system.

Now, what does this have to do with you?

I think it has everything to do with how big you dream. These opportunities and countless others like them can be yours. But...theres always a but...

Most people have their comfortable routines. You know when you have to get up, go to work or school, do homework, go to bed.

You probably enjoy watching TV or playing computer games, or just hanging out with your friends.

In Scouts, you work toward requirements, go camping and hiking, learn first aid, and more.

But have you really pushed yourself to do more than just enough to get by? Have you really tried to see just how much you can do? Improve your skills? Become stronger? Stand out from the crowd?

The famous author Kurt Vonnegut once said,

I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the

edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center.

So I challenge you to get close to the edge but not too close and push yourself to become a better you, a stronger you, a happier you. You wont know what you can do until you try. Ill be watching you, too, from the edge.

======================

At this point, GPS receivers have not been an issue. Due to cost, no one has had any inclination to get one.

That said, I believe a GPS unit would be acceptable under the clause "unless they are needed for some specific outing activity" as stated in my opening paragraph. Obviously it would not be used for "entertainment" or chatting with a friend back home, IMing, etc.

Frankly, for the kind of hiking and backpacking scouts do, I would prefer that the boys use topo maps and good old-fashioned compasses. They learn skills more thoroughly, can still navigate when the batteries die, carry far less weight, and save a lot of money. A scout is thrifty!

IMHO, using GPS is about as detrimental as the now-prevalent use of graphing calculators in algebra class. Kids too often learn to push the buttons, but don't understand the theory behind the equations. "Faster" does not necessarily equate to "better".

How in the world was our country settled, its borders defined, routes established from one city to another, etc., etc., without the wizardry of electronics? Mankind has existed for millenia without having to resort to the new-fangled toys that we suddenly embrace as indispensable.

I think I'll go by another Silva compass.

I don't envy your situation with the CO. Congratulations, though, on stepping up to the CM position and your success in turning around the program.

Your situation could be sticky. I'm guessing that there has been a relatively poor relationship for some time between the Pack and the church. It might be worthwhile to put some time and effort into repairing the situation. Regular communication on a personal level usually works much better than an "official" request on a formal level. Oh, sure, you might have to do that, but finding sympathetic people in the church (not always the ones in positions of authority) might give you a "back door" into the official ones.

You might try helping the church see the CS program as being a part of their outreach to young people and their families. Be persistent. Don't give up, even when it becomes discouraging.

Do you do any external publicity, such as newspaper articles about Pack events? If so, do they acknowledge that the church is you CO?

Perhaps you need to engage the services of a Pack parent who is also a member in good standing of the church.

Now...if these efforts don't work, maybe the church really doesn't believe in/understand/want the CS program in their church. Your best bet, then, would be to approach the other church about assuming the CO responsibilties. However, before making the jump, I'd have extensive conversations with the powers that be in the new church about all the details, both big and small.

Good luck to you. Keep the faith, and keep up the good work.

My troop has a "no electronics" policy, which is endorsed by the troop committee and understood by all scouts and parents. This means no ipods, mp3 players, discman, etc. It also means no cell phones (for boys) and no 2-way radios or walkie-talkies (unless they are needed for some specific outing activity). Adults can carry a cell phone, but it's to be used only for emergency purposes (in reality, out of sight/hearing range of boys, or for the return-alert call to parents on the way home).

Reasons:

1. Electronics detract from the total scouting experience. Boys get enough electronic entertainment outside of scouting events, which begin the moment we gather. The stuff stays at home or gets confiscated and returned to the boy's parent.

2. We encourage verbal interaction among the boys. Conversation on a trip is excellent. It's amazing what insights you can pick up about your boys when they start talking and you just listen! Small travel board games like cribbage or magnetic chess can help on longer rides, as can old family standbys like the alphabet game (am I dating myself?).

3. Electronics are too easy to lose, damage, or have stolen (by non-Scouts, of course). Why risk it?

4. The jury is still out as to the potential for hearing loss resulting from using those *#&$#!$ earbuds. Especially when a boy is trying to listen to "his" music loud enough to drown out everything else going on. I should not be able to hear his back-seat earbuds when I'm in the driver's seat! And I certainly don't want to be party to a scout's impaired hearing 10 years from now.

We leave the choice of en route music to the driver's discretion. Sometimes it's talk radio (can engage the boys' awareness of the world around them - think citizenship), or radio/CD/tape with suitable lyrics, subject to the edict of the driver.

I've found that movie soundtracks work well. A popular one is Gladiator. Most of the older boys have seen the movie at one time or another (the MPAA rating notwithstanding) and can relate to it, but the younger ones seem to like the music on its own merits.

I'm a classical music person myself, and the boys don't seem to have a problem with that. Think variety: Canadian Brass, jazz, American songs, Civil War songs on the way to Gettysburg... variety is key. In fact, my vehicle is usually the first one to fill up.

Not that I'm an old fuddy-duddy. I do listen to some of "their" stuff. But when it starts to grate on my ears, it's time for a change: driver sanity and safety. Sometimes, we ride in near-silence for a while. Everyone needs a little respite and occasional quiet downtime.

Music on the way home is seldom an issue. The boys are tired and usually sleep or just zone out.

I do like BrentAllen's suggestion about audiobooks. I'll have to try that.

Thanks, folks, for the quick and thoughtful responses.

Scoutingagain, thank you for the detailed itinerary. The boys have already done several sections of the AT. They were looking primarily at doing another section in southwestern Massachusetts (south of the Mass Tpk). I'm pretty sure they were totally unaware of the other trails in the area. I'll pass this information along to them.

Vigil-Hiker, the issue is the amount of time modern-day adults have available to take off from work, balancing scouting against organized sports, family vacations, religious obligations, etc. A high-adventure venue isn't going to change that, and I doubt that most people would plan a year ahead to do backpacking merit badge! You do present an interesting point regarding coordination with some other unit -- we can check out that possibility. All of the adults who have been consdidered thus far are registered scouters over 21 (two are BP MB counselors), except for one who is 18, so the "qualifications" are not an issue. We wouldn't want to take certain other parents because they are not properly equipped or physically able/conditioned to do this kind of trek. So what is a boy to do?

Oak Tree, I agree with you. Thanks for picking up on the point that merit badges are not patrol activities, even though the participants coincidentally might be part of the same patrol.

I'd be interested to hear what others think.