BartHumphries

I spent a while looked at that Learning for Life program. It looked basically like all the other programs that try to motivate kids. The laughably cheesy "choices game" for high school students was the final straw -- I don't really see why any high school students would voluntarily be a part of the Learning for Life program unless it was mandated by the school or something like that. I mean, if it even did a tenth of the "cool stuff" that Scouting does, then it might be interesting, but it seemed pretty dry and boring. It was rather reminiscent of those TV specials starring 30-year olds wearing neon-colored clothes with lasers strobing in the background while bad educational poetry is recited to the accompaniment of a thumping beat in order to "relate" to kids and "engage" them while attempting to educate them. Part of the nature of Scouting is that kids are given "ice cream" with all sorts of "vitamins" hidden away inside -- Learning for Life strips away all the ice cream. If you're going to be putting in all those hours of community service, you should join Interact where you can apply for all those amazing Rotary scholarships, or do it with your church so that you receive blessings from your God, or, or... Learning for Life seems like it's only going to help those kids that are "good enough" to not need the help in the first place. I don't know, maybe there's a lot more to it that the website just didn't show (the website was pretty sparse on actual information), but from everything that I've seen so far, I'm not going touch Learning for Life with a 10' pole.

Well, I think once a scout troop gets up and running it's pretty self sustaining and can fundraise to cover its costs. I used to raise several hundred dollars a year by working various fundraisers back when I was a Scout, because my family was poor and that was the only way I'd be going to summer camp, etc. The problem I see is starting a new troop, where nobody really has anything yet. Anyway... I thought Explorer posts didn't exist anymore, that it was just regular Boy Scout troops and Venture Crews?

"Marriage" is a right. But is marriage only "marriage" when it's between a man and a woman or can marriage also be between two (or more?) people of the same gender (or various genders in a polygamous relationship)? The way some states have defined marriage, it's sort of like saying that all men are legally entitled to have a Prince Albert piercing. By definition, a woman can't really have that kind of a piercing and advocating that women be legally allowed to have that kind of piercing is nonsensical. You can get whatever piercing you want and call it a Prince Albert piercing, but it won't really be a Prince Albert piercing because that's not how a Prince Albert piercing is defined. By legal definition, in some states, the idea of two homosexual people getting married is just as nonsensical because that's not how marriage is defined -- marriage is only between a man and a woman and thus the right to marriage can only occur between a man and a woman.

If a city was to sponsor a scout troop or venture crew as part of its youth activities, how much does that usually cost other than providing a place for people to meet, maybe some binders, pens, paper? What about the city being sued for being noninclusive, how likely is that and what is the probably outcome? Has anyone done something like this recently?

Yeah, along with PADI and NAUI, I should have listed SDI, PDIC, SSI, and IDEA. I myself went with PADI, because that's who the local dive shop is set up with -- they were just switching over from NAUI when I took my first class.(This message has been edited by BartHumphries)

Ok, it started out good, but then just turned into a rant that sort of stopped being funny. Let's go like this instead: Observe what works in Scouting Break this process down into component parts. Go for it don't be a shrinking violet, just do it. Your mileage may vary Next time make notes of what worked and what didn't, so the next time you can do it better (hindsight is always the clearest way to view something) This OBGYN procedure is often seen with a D&C (District & Council) management style, particularly with a Dr. of Med. or Drive of Mediocrity. Yeah, we sometimes have problems keeping the boys serious -- isn't that part of being a boy? A carrot/stick approach sometimes works. Setting a good example, getting to enjoy the refreshments, being taught how to tie a hangman's noose afterward, not having their parents alerted, doing activities that they helped plan and are emotionally invested in, these things help with that, although even adults joke around sometimes when they get together.

That's because orthodoxy means different things to different people. It's no surprise that different churches can believe different things and that each church considers itself orthodox, completely in line with tradition. If that wasn't the case, there would only be one church in the entire world. Take the Bible, for instance. There have been more different versions of the Bible than there are words in the Bible. Over the course of a few centuries, we can see where one scribe deleted a few verses that had appeared in an older version, then it was added back by someone else with a warning not to change the scriptures, then another scribe copied the 2nd version without the passage without knowing about the third version, then it was fixed again. And that's where it stayed for centuries until just a couple decades ago when an even older version was found in a monastery without those verses and it appears that the first scribe who "deleted" the verses was actually trying to correct the erroneous addition of those verses. The whole story of the woman who was about to be stoned, the famous "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" story is believed to be an addition to the Gospel of John by a later scribe, as the wording and sentence structure is completely different from the rest of the book, which usually means that someone else wrote it as even when someone tries to write in another voice their own writing style is usually apparent. Different churches even have different canonical versions of the Bible with more or less books. Heck, people can't even agree on which are the 10 commandments. For instance: I am the Lord your God, You shall have no other gods before me, You shall not make for yourself an idol. Sometimes that's one commandment, sometimes the first two are combined into one commandment (for a total of two), sometimes the latter two are combined into one commandment (for a total of two) and the Anglican churches say that the first "I am the Lord your God" is a preface to the list of commandments and thus not a commandment at all and that the latter two are separate commandments. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, and You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor, are variously interpreted as one or two commandments. Christian churches have, over the course of centuries, split over seemingly silly things, as whether you use two fingers or three fingers when a priest blesses a person. Does the Eucharist (for those who believe in a literal Eucharist instead of a figurative Sacrament) become the literal body of Christ at the moment the priest finishes the prayer or at the moment it touches a person's tongue? Then there's Jesus. Is he the literal son of God and Mary or was that figurative? Is he a man who became a deity when he died? Was he half a deity from birth? Is he a separate and distinct being from God or is he the same being appearing in a different form? Was there a difference between the mortal and deific Jesus and was there possibly more than one soul in that body? Throughout history, churches have argued and split over these and each side was convinced that it was right for reasons that seemed good and logical to them at the time based on what they knew. And let's not get into the Light of Christ and the Spirit of Christ and all the similar things which may or may not be different to different churches. Then, some churches believe that the heavens are closed, God no longer pays attention to people, that miracles and angles aren't around anymore, and some don't -- some believe that God speaks to man as he did in days of old, that miracles and angels are still around. And there are all different versions of those two ideologues that I just postulated -- churches are 100% the first and 0% on the second, some are 0% on the first and 100% on the second, some are 50%/50%, some are 75%/25%, or 25%/75%. Some churches say that man is saved by faith, some by works, some say that the whole argument is nonsense and that those are really the same thing. And this isn't just limited to Christian churches. When you start delving into religions, you see that all religious groups everywhere basically argue over the same things, for instance the Hindus argue over the way of the cat or the way of the monkey, which is basically a faith or works argument. Really, everyone, in any religion (not just Christian churches) is arguing over the same things. Some viewpoints have massive following, some have very limited following, and sometimes people of different viewpoints hang together under a larger umbrella for reasons unrelated to religion (political reasons, their friends are there, it has a great scout troop). I could go on, but I think it's really evident to someone who starts looking at churches. Different churches have different beliefs and different viewpoints and each one is convinced that they are right, that they know the truth and that the other churches are wrong (if this wasn't the case, then the different churches wouldn't exist and would just be one church). Am I saddened that this happened? Sure. Am I surprised? Not in the least. Do I find it strange that different divinity schools teach different things? Not even a little bit. Sorry about the wall of text, by the way.

Perhaps a forums person could take this list and edit it into the first post in the thread, so that it doesn't get lost in succeeding pages of replies -- I put it together based on all of the "proper" acronyms suggested so far: AM Adult Member AC Advancement Chair SA Alternate form of Assistant Scoutmaster (sometimes ASM) MC Alternate form of Committee Member (sometimes CM) ACA American Canoe Association ARC American Red Cross AD Aquatic/Area Director AC Area Commissioner ACM Assistant Cubmaster ADL Assistant Den Leader ASE Assistant Scout Executive ASM Assistant Scoutmaster AWDL Assistant Webelos Den Leader BALOO Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (precursor to Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills if you've never been camping) BOR Board of Review BL Boy's Life CD Camp/Climbing Director COPE Challenging Outdoor Personal Experience CA Chaplin Aide CO Chartered Organization COR Chartered Organization Representative CG Chief Guide CSE Chief Scout Executive CoS Climb On Safely CC Committee Chair CM Committee Member/Cubmaster CAC Council Advancement Chair CP Council President CoH/COH Court of Honor CSDC Cub Scout Day Camp DL Den Leader DAC District Advancement Chair DC District Chair/Committee/Commissioner or Den Chief DD District Director) DE District Executive EBOR Eagle Board of Review FD Field Director GSUSA Girl Scouts (USA) GTA Good Turn for America G2SS Guide to Safe Scouting IH Institutional Head (top person in the chartering organization) ILSC Introduction to Leadership Skills for Crews IOLS Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills JLT Junior Leader Training (now Troop Leader Training) KS Kitchen Staff LNT Leave No Trace MB Merit Badge NAYLE National Advanced Youth Leadership Experience NAUI National Association of Underwater Instructors (see also PADI) NCS National Camp School NC National Commissioner NOLS National Outdoor Leadership School NRA National Rifle Association NYLT National Youth Leadership Training (nothing to do with New York) NLE New Leader Essentials OM Operations Manager OA Order of the Arrow PT Pack Trainer PL Patrol Leader POR Position of Responsibility -- required to hold in a troop for so many months to advance in each rank past First Class PADI Professional Association of Diving Instructors (see also NAUI) QM Quartermaster RC Regional Commissioner RT Roundtable RTC Roundtable Commissioner SSD Safe Swim Defense SA Safety Afloat SE Scout Executive SM Scoutmaster SMC Scoutmaster Conference SS Sea Scout SPL Senior Patrol Leader SSD Shooting Sports Director T21 Tenderfoot to First Class -- a guide for taking boys from beginning scouts to earning First Class Irving the National Council, based on the headquarters location in Texas) Trail's End The people who make that popcorn Supply Those who produce/distribute items for the Scout shops TL Tiger (Den) Leader) TDL Tiger Den Leader TCD Trainer Development Conference TCC Troop Committee Challenge TG Troop Guide TLT Troop Leader Training UC Unit Commissioner VC Venturing Crew WFD Water Front Director WDL Webelos Den Leader WOE Webelos Outdoor Experience WEBELOS We'll be loyal scouts WFA Wilderness First Aid WFR Wilderness First Responder WB Wood Badge WAGGGS World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts WCA World Conservation Award YM Youth Member YP Youth Protection (Training) YPT Youth Protection Training(This message has been edited by BartHumphries)

Thanks, JFL49. I'm just reposting your links so that it'll be easier for me to find later -- I tend to look for those things at the end of a discussion, not at the beginning. He said: Our Council implemented this a while ago, as described here: http://www.ctyankee.org/program/training/basic/smtraining We developed a Self Evaluation Form, basically a reprint from the syllabus: http://www.ctyankee.org/fs/page/001478/introoutdoorskillssignoffse20080420.pdf We also developed a Sign Off Sheet, again from the syllabus: http://www.ctyankee.org/fs/page/001478/introoutdoorskillssignoffpr20080420.pdf We also offer IOLS at summer camp, although soliciting instructors is sometimes a challenge.

Perhaps it was brought to the committee's notice that you cannot have co-Scoutmasters and, not wanting to promote one of you above the other, they instead just brought in someone new. I really don't know why you're asking us why they'd do such a thing -- they're the ones you should be asking. As for whether they *can* do that, well, they just did it, so yeah.

The rate of peanut allergies in all first world countries is indeed climbing and nobody really knows why. It might be something like polio -- as we introduced more and more hygienic controls in public water supplies, reducing cholera rates, etc., people just weren't getting as many water-borne illnesses and instead of easily contracting a mild form of polio (which would protect against contracting a harsher strain) people were being hit with something their body was completely unprepared for and thus the cleaner America got the worse polio got until the polio vaccine was created. Unfortunately, from what we understand of allergies, you can't create a vaccine for one as it's not really a sickness -- it's like your body already has a super vaccine against the allergen and tries to destroy the allergen as quickly as possible, even when mobilizing to a possible threat so quickly will kill you. It's not a question of giving your body another tool to combat the disease, like a new vaccine would, it's a case of your body just going crazy with the tools it already has. It's believed that our current higher standard of cleanliness is what is causing these peanut allergies (stop using antimicrobial wipes on the counters at home?). Also, try to avoid giving your kids peanut butter until they're four years old. Perhaps a doctor who just had some roasted peanuts as a snack needed to wash his hands better before he tapped on the needle before giving a child a vaccination while in the hospital? I don't know, nobody knows.

The Blancmange said, "That is, of course, different from a parent who has absolutely no training in the purpose or procedure for a BOR." Is there a better way for a parent to get that sort of hands-on training than to (unofficially) sit in on a board of review?(This message has been edited by BartHumphries)

Looking at the top 25 sponsoring organizations (from http://www.praypub.org/pdf_docs/BSA_Membership_Report_2007.pdf as of 2007), out of 2,428,898 youth 1,539,397 of them are sponsored by some group with the word church in their name: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, United Methodist Church, Roman Catholic Church, Baptist churches, Lutheran churches, Presbyterian churches, United Church of Christ, Episcopal Church, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). That's roughly 63.3% of Boy Scouts (again, only considering the top 25 sponsoring organizations). I don't think churches are going to be banned from starting scout troops any time soon. It's too bad that other sponsoring organization doesn't want an additional volunteer, but that's their choice. I don't agree with the choice made, but I do support their right to make that choice.

You're both talking of huge denominations. Perhaps, in different areas of the country, or even in the same parts, both statements are true? Sometimes different people have different discussions or have different issues pressing foremost on their mind. Sometimes people hew strictly to the guidelines set out by church leaders, sometimes they don't. Sometimes church leaders are representative of their congregations, sometimes they aren't. I do know that not everyone was racist back then. Some of my ancestors were, some weren't. I'm a Son of Confederate Veterans (www.scv.org/) and a Son of Union Veterans of the Civil War (www.suvcw.org/) and I have the family history from both sides. Some people really cared about equality, some didn't. Abolitionism and slavery both have quite ancient roots going back centuries and people have been fighting and dieing over those issues for a long time. True, the Civil War in America (for example) wasn't necessarily "just" a war to free the slaves at first, but that doesn't mean that to some people that issue wasn't foremost in their thoughts during the Civil War and hadn't (and hasn't) been foremost in their thoughts since when indentured servitude and slavery and racism first started in this country.

The 1997 printing (the latest available) of the LDS church's Scouting Handbook says (on p5), "Worthy adults (whether members of the Church or not) may be called to serve as scout leaders." Wards generally have worthy members who could make great scout leaders and so the ward generally recruits from its own members, but it's not unheard of to have non-LDS people as leaders. Like the Bishop said, though, he would have to take each one on an individual basis as they'd have to be living an LDS lifestyle (no smoking, no drinking, no promiscuity, etc.).

Those are the pages that your council doesn't want you to see?

Well, jhankins, apparently laser tag is?

Yeah, I eventually got a second email and was able to validate my vote.

Wolf rank patch -- has a fleur-de-lis on it, so ok? Mowgli patch -- doesn't have a fleur-de-lis or BSA or anything other than his face and name, so no?

Wait, laser tag is verbotten? Honestly?

I signed up then tried to vote. The final page said, "Please check your email now for a message from Billion Points. Youll be asked to click on a link to confirm that youve received the email. Upon doing so, your vote will be processed." But the email was just a "congratulations on joining" type, no link there to confirm anything.

Ok, so Cub Scout day camp patch on a Boy Scout uniform... sure, why not. Ronald Reagen Presidential Library patch, no. Wolf rank patch? Mowgli patch?

On the right chest pocket, can a scout/scouter basically wear anything that fits? Boy Scout camp patch, Cub Scout Camp patche, James M Stuart Good Citizenship Award, patch earned in another country as a result of an exchange?

I don't even know if it's a Boy Scout patch. But it's on my old scout patch hide. It's yellow with red trim and CAPTURE THE SPIRIT in blue letters around the edge. On a white background in the center, is what appears to be an Indian chief with full headdress. The outer feathers are red, green, blue. The inner feathers are yellow, white. There are two fringed things hanging down on either side of his face with the letters L and S on them (L on his right cheek, S on his left cheek). Where in the world did this come from?

I heard that the ban on military clothing was because, with our tan/olive stuff, we already sort of look like a paramilitary group and what with our camping and hiking (and two shooting merit badges) we don't want to be lumped in with the "crazy" paramilitary groups (like the people at Waco). I thought I heard somewhere that marching in formation is forbidden -- as we have no drill corps. I see practically every troop march in unison at scout camp, though, so I don't know how true that last part is. I know someone who knew someone who saw some adult Scouter at some scout camp who got kicked out of the BSA because he wanted to wear military pants with his uniform shirt at the camp. The executive who happened to be there came back with the sheriff to escort the guy away. Urban legend? It could be true, I read about it on the internet, after all.