moosetracker

Bad Wolf - I agree they crossed the line on both issues.. But, I would smack them upside the head more for the bad mouthing, and educate them on the HIPPA and inform them that there would be no leniency if it happened a 2nd time..

I guess due to my personal experience of not knowing that calling out "Bobby, John and Gary" I still need your medforms was against HIPPA rules, when I was just doing what had always been done, I can see someone not realizing they are crossing HIPPA rules if the info of the scout having Aspergers was open knowledge to everyone in the troop and just passed by word of mouth..  Of course when I crossed the line I had been doing Health forms for camp for about 3 years and then Hippa came in and I got my hands slapped about 3 months after it passed..  I just was doing what I had done in all previous years, had heard of it, knew the overall of it but not the details, and figured it applied to medical personnel only..

imachristian13 - I would say they definitely crossed the Hipaa rule line.. But, unless they work in a field where it is used, people's perception of it is vague, or who has to follow it..  BSA does not mandate that we all get Hipaa training.. (Watch for new on-line video coming soon)..

If the rest of the current troop is great with working with your son, and it's just this one couple, then I agree with Bad Wolf.. Stand your ground with the current troop and get someone to discipline, educate and restrict the leadership these two have on outings at least until they prove they can work with your son..  If this troop is 90% great for your son and the only problem are these two then it is a possibility the new troop may turn out worse.. Sounds like you have spent a lot of time educating this troop..

I don't know if they will expel the couple.. If they don't work in medicine or with children like in education, chances are they don't know the in's and outs of the HIPPA rules, and the fact you are very open with the information and they got it through word of mouth in the troop rather then looking at a private (for yours eyes only) medical form, will have them not thinking about HIPPA rules when they tell someone..  My guess is your SM or other ASM's have probably passed on this info to others at summer camp or during a camporee so that Merit Badge Counselors, other Camp Staff or Camporee station volunteers know that the child has special circumstances, and when the info is passed on in order to help your child and improve his experience you were fine with it.. So with that in mind, these two wouldn't think HIPPA regulations.. But, what they did do is pass negative info along before you even met with the new troop in order to ruin chances of you making good first impressions.. My guess will be they probably will be educated to HIPPA rules (and a few other volunteers who have passed the info on in order to help not hurt may also get their eyes open that unless they have your permission they shouldn't be doing that).. Then the couple probably should get  the worst of the reprimand on them passing on negative impressions and hurting your child's chance for success. This is something anyone with half a brain would know that it was wrong to do, even while they were doing it.

From what I understand the problem couple are ASM's not the SM himself.. If after contacting the new troop, you think the ASM's have seriously hurt your son's chances of being accepted, then if  you think the SM of your current troop is capable of giving a more positive review, perhaps he can contact the new troop to give them a different perspective and erase some of the harm..

My gut reaction is to agree with JoeBob, if the info they shared was from observation rather then sharing off the medical form it isn't HIPPA..  But then I have to curb this to say I am not sure how restrictive this is.. If they stated your son has Asperger's Syndrome, perhaps just this is breaking HIPPA rules, even if the condition is well known in your troop, it would be up to you to decide to share it with a new troop in your own way..  I say this because when I was trying to get people to get medforms completed for summer camp, I use to read off the list of those whose medforms I did not yet have updated.. I was told I was breaking HIPPA rule.. So if just stating a person is in need of a updated medform breaks HIPPA rules it is pretty stringent.

Some troops (and people) are capable of dealing with health issues and some are not.. Our troop worked with scouts with health problems, but it went much better when the SM was on board.. We got a new SM who did not want to deal, and the rest of the volunteers had to try to work around him to help the 2 scouts, but the SM did prove to be a serious obstacle to work around.. We lost one to another troop, the other stayed on but the parents were in constant battle since the SM did not want the scout to go on any events even when there was a volunteer or parent there who would take full responsibility..

But continued dispute about that doesn't help scouting, or even illuminate the original issue of this thread.  You've done good work as a moderator in helping steer the discussion back toward the best interests of the scouts.  I wonder how much the "large movement" part of scouting is really vital. 

 

All I know is my guys got a large charge out of going to a camporee, more so a Scout-O or Jamboree that attracted multiple districts or people from different states.. Meeting other scouts & scouters they never met before and getting to compare and contrast their programs and swap stories they would come home with different ideas and new goals or new ideas on future events and how to implement them.. 

I am fine with wishing Trails Life good-luck while pushing BSA for change.. There is one major difference, Trails Life bills itself to being for conservative Christians rather then being non-denominational..  I have no beef with a religion's belief that is different from mine, as long as they don't try to force those not of their belief to follow it anyways.. I would not understand why a Jewish kid or someone from LDS or a Mormon would join the group, but if they do so they do so knowing that the program is going to push conservative Christian doctrine down their throats and not allow the adults to be leaders since a non-Christian is not a good role model..  This group should really only attract people with a common religious belief.

So what about "Historically black colleges"  that want to STAY dominated by AfricaN aMERICANS

 

I don't see this a big liberal push on our agenda. It is simply the minority is not pushed to change as they are not doing it to enforce a superiority advantage.. Personally I hope to see these integrate as the more people intermingle (especially our youth) the more we will not judge by the color of our skin.

 

Affirmative Action plans that guarantee minorities proportional representation in employment, government contracting and college admissions whether the people being advantaged are equal or not?

 

This was never a separate but equal program.. It is the opposite it is to integrate a society that preferred separate but equal. Compared to what it was in the 70's and 80's it is quite weak now.. Luckily for the most part most schools & companies are past the need, although there are a few stubborn hold outs.

 

Maternity leaves and family leave that gives women a right to take time off from work not needed for medical reasons?

 

Again not a separate but equal program.. To be that mothers got maternity leave, and men/(women who do not have babies) would get __________???  Liberals are advocating for fathers to get maternity leave which would help make it equal for male/female parents, but no help for those who never have children.. What would you propose?

 

Genders still get the separate-but-equal treatment in a lot of things.. Schools, sports, scouting.. I don’t know if schools are now better at this, one would hope so now that it is not assumed the #1 goal of a girl is to marry well.. Sports definitely unequal, obviously the money, time and promotion is all about the boys/men, women are lucky to get offered the ability to play the sport, and usually get the hand-me-downs in equipment and not the prime times for practice or games.. Best for girls to participate in a sport that is integrated like swimming, track, biking, skating etc..  Scouting I know little about the GSUSA, but know many girls would prefer the program BSA offers while I know of no boys who would prefer to join GSUSA (accept for the transgender child), so I would say it is not equal.

Starting a new Scouting program today has a lot of disadvantages to when BSA was started.. BSA was started when their were few after school programs for youth.. It now has history and tradition and recognition and still it is difficult for them to hold their own in a culture that offers a wide variety of programs for youth.. Also it is very expensive and difficult to find large plots of land to create a camps unless they can get the money to buy a camp BSA is selling.. Some might consider not having camps as a positive, but it does make it harder to bring large groups of people together in order to feel part of a large movement..

Seriously, if you do not work with the same counselor then it is up to each counselor if they will accept a partial from another counselor or not, even if you had the blue card.. Good news is that most counselors do..  As for not having a blue card but at least a computerized sheet, that also is up to the counselor (you may have a few more that don't accept, but most will be fine, as most of us do not wish to punish a child for the mistakes of an adult.).. Your son would need to get the list of counselors doing the MB, and be prepared to give them the long story, then just see what their verdict will be..  If you find an MBC who works with your troop a lot, they will probably be fine with it as the majority of the scouts they work with will now be in the same boat. It will be if you need to use an MBC that doesn't work a lot with your troop who may be uncomfortable with it.

PS..  Many councils are now moving away from blue cards and going to computerized.. This may be your council and why your blue cards were computerized by your old SM..  If this is the case, then the new computerized sheet will be as good as the blue card for any counselor.. Sentence #1 will still apply but other then that your son might not need to tell his tale of woe to each MBC he calls.. Might be worth a call to the council office to check that.

Well the trainers in our council were NOT happy with this either..  I was the District Trainer for a time, my son is doing it now.. Both my son and I were trying to push the council training group to allow us to do the IOLS test out.. It was still with trainers verifying the scouters knew the stuff, but we had some scouters who did know the stuff, and refused to spend a weekend being taught what they knew but would gladly show us they knew it.. The rest of the council training group had made it illegal to use the test out, and we could not budge them.. I can't remember their reasoning as it was several years back and I disagreed with their logic.. But, to me it sounded like "We know stuff, they just think they know stuff.. We need to teach them the stuff or they will do it wrong..".. They could not understand the test out had them showing us they knew the right way..

So take this type of a Council level training group and merge it with an SE who doesn't want them to teach (or test out) at all, but just let everyone teach themselves..  Well I was no longer going to the Council training meetings, but I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall to hear the discussion in that room when new SE met the council training group !!! I can imagine lots of fireworks..

The SE is wonderful in everything else.. Very program oriented and has spent money to improve the camps and other programs that directly benefit the scouts, rather then just lines his pockets..  For some reason he just has it in his head more scouters will get trained (?properly?) if they can train themselves at their convenience rather then having to find when & where a course will be held and schedule and travel to it.. 

Don't know if it changed since son took it but when he did a lot took both lifesaving MB and lifeguard at the same time because the only difference was the hours they put in during the afternoon of lifeguarding. It was something like driving where you needed x amount of practice time. The CPR may have been different too, where you needed real certification before going to camp, as the MB practiced but did not certify. Not sure on the CPR though.

So you really do need the muscle strength as if taking lifeguard.

So Stosh if you taught the MB you would be happy to accept an 11 yo without the swimming MB behind them, and you as the MBC could make that call, no one stopping you. But, you can not force that decision on another MBC who would not be comfortable in that situation.

Our camp not only had the pre-requisite of the Swimming merit badge but also something else that insured some age/muscles to the boy, for what JoeBob said.. If you have a 17 or 18 year old trying to pull and 11 year old under the 17 or 18 yo will most likely win as the younger has not matured enough to have the needed muscle mass..

The MB counselor (or camp) has the freedom to choose if they wish to accept be a counselor to a scout for a merit badge based on whatever standards they set to assure the scout has the ability to do the MB,  if they personally have the time for it (they may have family matters that are taking up their time for the foreseeable future), even if based on knowing the scout if they personally think the time would be beneficial for either of them (although they may lighten that up by a white lie and tell them they do not have the time rather then saying they are a nagging whining kid they choose not to work with.. Bottom line a MBC is not forced to work with anyone they choose not to. That is not adding to the requirements, it is simply allowing the MBC to feel comfortable with the scouts they work with..

The scout is free to look elsewhere for the MBC.. They are not required to take it at camp, or with the person in their troop who teaches it..  Unless this scout is truly older and for some reason has no interest in the Swimming MB but just the lifesaving one, I would not recommend it,  but since the scout is free to find a different MBC you could work with him on a list of eligible MBC's off the district list, and he could call any of them to see if they have no qualms about doing Lifesaving with him before he does the swimming MB.. Still with all of them, it will be up to them to accept the scout or not.

I notice the bathroom..  I just figured it was a sign of the times.. No real study on or push for Leave No Trace..  There is a lot done then we do not do now due to LNT.. But for some reason I thought early publications did talk about cat holes, perhaps that was only used when a water source was not available?

Yes, welcome Adamcp..  Didn't notice this was your first post to the forum..  So ditto and what Packsaddle said...   But, perhaps you have been a lurker for a while so know your way around, seeing that the moderators have changed things so you have to work harder to search this area out. Seeing that your first comment is in this area, it sort of points to this.. Or perhaps your interests lie in I&P, and you found this thread by surfing the web for this specific topic.. Which if you have posted or read comments from other political arenas around the web, well then we are quite rough for scouting but mild compared to other political discussion boards.. We try to argue (strongly at times) the comments and the ideas and we don't go into personal attacks..

Thanks caveEagle - If that was a conservative viewpoint, I am pleasantly surprised because I think it was well thought out..

Sorry that this is your first experience with a Boy Scout troop.. It took us 3 times before we found the right troop.. The first time we chose between the two troops that our Pack offered us to choose from.. The second time we were recommended a troop by the district Executive.. The third time my husband and I looked at 6 or 7 troops, then took our son to the top 3 of those we looked at so he could choose from them..  A slight drive for us, 30 minutes, but since the first troop was 20 min and the second troop about 25 minutes, I guess the added distance wasn't that bad..

Some things to think about looking for a new troop  (I am sure I do not have them all, so others can add on.)

1) Boy lead -  The boys are leading the troop, the adults do very little other then watch and give guidance to some of the Boys who are the leaders (SPL or Patrol Leaders).. Do the boys (especially SPL or Patrol Leaders) take an interest in a visiting boy?.. Do they welcome him and invite him to join in? Are most of the boys assigned jobs or tasks? Do the older boys mentor the younger boys?

3) Activities - What type of outings are normal for the troop.. Hopefully they have a schedule of upcoming events.. Are they putting the outing in scouting? Are the outings things your son has interest in..  (ex. if your son dislikes hiking then a troop whose outings are 85% hiking is not the right fit.)

3) Expense - (unless you are wealthy)..  Are the activities economical -or- Does the troop have successful fundraisers that make the activities economical for you?

Well we also got to agree on the ban of scouts using little red wagons for anyone under 14, when they put that out a year or two back.

Fox may be fine with other scout activities, but not when scouts are banning guns.. I also am curious, the way the video stated it, it made it sound like if you were a scout you were not to use squirt guns not only at BSA activities, but ever, sort of like being trustworthy, loyal, helpful  etc.. we should add "no aiming water guns at people" to that..  But, I think it is only not participating in this BSA activity in this fashion..  Not that many will follow this in or out of scouting.

Were you reading during lunchtime? tsk, tsk.. Stay away from I&P during lunchtime.

As long as you somehow try to argue that keeping openly avowed adult homosexuals out of BSA membership will somehow magically protect us from sexual predators, yes we will continue to disagree, because it is utter bull-pucky..

As for sexual attraction of similar aged scouts that is consensual, deal with it the same way the Venturing crew does with heterosexual attraction between it's members.. Again, It is no excuse to deny Charter Orgs who have different religious beliefs from you the right to practice their religious beliefs and welcome adults who they believe are a great role models to the youth regardless of the sexual preference..  

I gave you a point for the "over the age of" being considered a pedophile, in saying that part of your argument I will accept.. So you are still arguing for something I have conceded, but we all know how clear headed you are...   Also your argument is ignoring the fact that in cub scouts and a few years of boy scouts they are pedophiles.. You can call them simply gay.. I will call them rapists...  I will don't consider a male rapist of a women as simply a heterosexual...  Sorry..  Yes someone 17 or 18 having CONSENTUAL sex with perhaps a girlfriend of 16 who they had the relationship before their birthday is a different story from a 17 or 18 year old using a date rape drug on a 16 year old, or just ignoring the word "NO" and physically forcing themselves on them..  Someone in my son's class in HS ran into this, and the father of the girl came close to having him prosecuted as a sex-offender.. The state worked hard for a settlement, then adopted a Romeo/Juliet law for the future.. But, a 23 or 32 year old with a 16 year old would be rape, with most states the Romeo/Juliet law only applies to a two or three year age difference..

Also you are still ignoring the main problem to your arguement.. Unless the sexual predator is trying to gain access to an underage youth through being an on-line predator through some chat room, or paying for prostitution of an underage prostitute (whether the underage person is willing or is being held against their will by a sex ring).. They gain access to their victims by being in a position as a youth leader (teacher, priest, coach, BSA leader) or they gain access by dating a women with children, or by having their own children lure their friends into their homes so their father can victimize them, or they victimize their own children.. They gain access by creating a persona that gets you as a parent or as a fellow scout leader to trust them..  Those people are already in scouting and allowing local option will not change the fact that they are already in scouting.. Also a persona to gain your trust will not be the openly avowed gay person, so don't expect these people to be the ones coming out of the closet when local option becomes the policy..

Also, before turning in a receipt make a copy of it.. I did this all but one time.. Guess which one time the DE lost the receipt??

Thank you.  What I was trying to say was that only one side of this particular 'battle' is willing to compromise.  The problem is that what's being compromised is values.  We clearly have disagreements about those values, but one side in this issue is trying to save a national institution based on values.  The other has a 'take no prisoners' approach, and it's working. 

This statement just boggles my mind.. I could not for the life of me figure out what the conservative Christian side of this argument could ever state they are willing compromising anything.. I mean your argument is  that in order for the conservative Christians to be able to have their religious freedom, then no one else has the right to practice their own religious freedom. This is compromise??

Reading on, I guess some have guessed you mean the half-a$$ed vote of 2 years back.. First I agree with others that this was not a compromise because it still did not allow everyone the freedom to practice their own religious beliefs.. But, then I also half to ask, where was the "willing to compromise" from the opposing side when this vote took place.. I remember the same type of hand-wringing.. The same argument for no compromise.. The same sky-is-falling predictions.. Willing to compromise is either putting forth the suggestion for compromise, or at least when proposed by the other side graciously accepting (and then it is seen as both sides being willing to compromise)..

As for leadership not being about compromise, I disagree.. Sure you can lead as a monarch and make all the decisions and listen to no one else, perhaps even go so far as to kill the messenger or anyone daring mutiny..  But, most of the well run countries and well run companies and well run Troops and Patrols that I have seen have leaders who listen to the ideas and the concerns of their people, especially those people known for skills in certain areas.. Sure there are times in an emergency where a leader due to time constraints needs to make a decision and has no time for a discussion as to the best way to proceed.. But, for the most part a leader who values the ideas, opinions and skills of those who are following them will have a much more loyal and happier group of people.. They will also be able to make wiser decisions due to receiving input from various sources that will raise ideas the single leader may not have thought of themselves...  What is that old saying.. "Servant Leadership"..

As for the start of this thread, that at a certain age they are no longer a pedophile.. Perhaps I will give you that.. But, then they are rapists until the age of consent..  Again for the most part a person wanting to gain your trust to leave them alone with your kids will also not be an openly avowed rapist..  Whether they are gay, pedophiles or rapists, the fact you feel safer from them if they simply keep their secret hidden from you so that you don't know or suspect, does not in anyway protect you from anything.. I also still predict that if, as you say a rapist must be a gay rapist, in order to gain your trust even with the DADT policy lifted, these will not be the scouters that come out of the closet.. So be afraid... Be very afraid... Today, because a change tomorrow will not help or hurt you in that regard.

Wow.. You guys are still at it?..  I figured after being away for the 3 day holiday weekend you guys would have been exhausted by now, and due to the de-emphasis of I&P, which I wasn't aware of until I read to catch up, I thought it had faded into the background..

Hopefully the charge to post on I&P will not be per word !!! I tend to be wordy, and looks like I have been voluntold  I am footing Stosh's posts also.. I will have to recheck how wordy Stosh has been (well ok worded that I will take pity on him).. Anyway, whose going to count up our words and bill us, look at how wordy everyone has been??   Much easier to just charge an annual fee to post to I&P..

Otherwise arguments all seem the same... No change.. 

Multiple choice:  So how did you spend your holiday weekend..?? 

a) "I spent it posting to I&P that the sky was falling"

b) "I spent it posting to I&P assuring people that the sky wasn't falling."

c) "I spent my time trying to figure out if the sky was falling or not"

d) "I was comic relief for I&P"..

They were all pedophiles.. I guess if you look for a needle in a haystack you are able to find 2 or 3 examples, but those are needle in haystack examples.. 99% of the pedophiles happen to be heterosexuals.. So we should ban all heterosexuals from being adult scout leaders.. You never can be too careful..

Ahhhh... Then I misunderstood, I saw the 8 and thought it was the 8 inch... Yes, the 12in is the norm for patrol cooking main meals for us and some large desserts.. the 8in is for sides and some other types of desserts

That is a good price !.. 

You leave my feet alone !!!   It's like soda, pop or tonic ...   We gots feet wheres eyes comes from ...  (That's my story and I'm sticking to it.)