moosetracker

Fred - The Supreme court would have to get a change up to lean very heavily with extreme liberal judges for them to ever come up with a verdict that a religion must stop practicing their religious beliefs and comply with any equal and civil rights that go against their beliefs.. The only time I have known that to happen is if the life of a child is endangered as in medical aid or forcing young girls to marry, or killing a child because they sinned and caused the family shame..Those cases are not always decided against the religion..  I don't think you have child endangerment as an argument over a parent of a scout not being able to force troop A to accept his Adult App due to him being gay, especially when they are given the right to move to troop B, or create their own troop.. 

Depends if they isolate their child from all but their church and they were doing scouting in confidence anyone gay who was volunteering stayed in the closet..  But, if they ventured out with their child to public school (or private with no written rule), went to stores or community events or medical facilities, joined other activities like little league, karate, a band or choir, public pool or beach.. Well then the parents will live with the possibility a staff member may be gay. 

Just heard this news!  It is Fantastic.. I agree with others, it is the only solution that could be made in order to respect everyone's differing belief values on the subject..

I also hope that those having difficulties embracing the change, will find a path that will make them happy, be it within scouting or not.. Although like packsaddle I am happy to keep the door open for you... Also, like BSA with this change that now respects my values, I am perfectly happy to defend the rights of religious CO's with differing values to have the right to practice their religious values as long as it does not infringe on my religious values.. Same as I will defend a religion having a right to choose not to perform a same sex marriage as long as other religions have a right to do so.. The same as some CO's have the right not to accept women as unit leaders, or have the right to choose on members of the CO for adult leaders etc. etc. etc...

Perhaps there are people in the LGBT community that do not think this is good enough.. Question is can they get a huge swell of the general populace to agree that religions must conform and are not allowed to practice their own religious beliefs within their own religion.. The BSA being a charter org of the church gives it a different partnership then a group that they just let use their facilities.. The BSA group is 100% under the church.. I have no doubt if it ever came to a court battle BSA and the church would win that argument as long as they are arguing for upholding their religious beliefs within their own religious organization rather then arguing imposing their religious belief upon everyone, even those whose religious beliefs are totally opposite of theirs.

AZMike - as others have said, we don't know enough of the situation to really say.. Like if the homosexual looked at the other kid and knowing the orientation of the fellow the accuser simply took it as his coming on to him .. Then it would end up being the homosexual really did nothing wrong.. But, for the sake of argument, lets say the homosexual did cross the line. Then the answer is yes, the youth should be removed if BSA is following youth protection policy..  It is as simple as that.. If they did not remove him, they did not follow policy.

But as others have said, this would be the same policy if in ventures a youth male crossed the line with a youth female.. Or an Adult male came on to either a youth male or Female. Or a Female Adult came on to either a youth male of female.. 

Not youth protection, but still should be dealt with as sexual harassment would be a Female Adult propositioned a Male or Female Adult.. Or a Male Adult hit on a Female or Male Adult..

Personally, I would stay with private emails rather then public ones,  but make it known to him that if his troop would like to invite your troop to activities, you would be happy to let your scouts know about that and encourage them to attend. But, as far as your concerned, it is important for your scouts to go visit any troop in the area that extends an invitation so that your scouts find the troop that fits their needs.. That it will not be your decision or his decision as to where these scouts choose to go.. It will be the scouts decision.. The AOL requirement states  "With your Webelos den, visit at least  a) one Boy Scout troop meeting, and  b) one Boy Scout-oriented outdoor activity."     "at least" means this is bare minimum required, but to you the word encourages you to visit more then one.. It does not say "visit only one"..   Explain that Troops will attract boys for different reasons. It could be as simple as having a meeting day that works for the scout, to having more of a program in an area they enjoy like hiking, aquatics or camping.. Or the make up of the troop may interest a boy some enjoying a small troop while others gravitate to a large troop.  This is not being rude to his troop, this is doing your best for your boys to help them make a well informed decision that will be the correct one for them and keep them in scouting for many years to come..

Keep it professional, polite and keep it so that you are offering them fair and equal opportunity to recruit the scouts.. If you have made comments to your cubs or their parents that may have poisoned their attitude toward keeping an open mind when looking at this troop, think if there is anything you can do to rectify that.. But be firm in your belief that your actions to accept invites from other troops is equally fair and is in the best interest of your scouts so they can make a well informed decision. 

You are doing something wrong if you bad mouth the one troop and push the other Troop.. If you encourage your cubs to visit several neighborhood troops in the area and choose based on their interest, you are not doing anything wrong..  Basically you are helping your cubs find a troop that will personally fit their needs and make them happy and keep them in scouting longer.

A troop should run a good program in order to excite the cubs to join.. Being under the same CO as the Pack does not mean they get all scouts by default regardless of what type of program they put on.. Competition is good as it pushes either scouts and/or units to excel.. Feelings of entitlement do not encourage excellence in a program..

Welcome Boyled,  I am truly sorry about your current troop, I know you have a sense of loyalty after having been in it for years, but if you have talked and they are ignoring the advice to go to another troop is the best one offered..  Have any other scouts already moved? Are there boys in your school who are in the other troops? Those would be the people to talk to in order to get their opinion of their troop.. Also you could call the council office and talk to the District Executive.. Let him know what type of troop you are looking for, if half way decent, he should know the troops in the area and be able to suggest a good fit..

I am impressed by your confidence and drive to try to work out the issues in your troop rather then expect your parents to fix them.. If you want boy-led, then handling problems and issues on your own is the way you show adults that youth 'can' have the maturity to lead themselves when given the opportunity.. If they can not see it through your example, and do not understand the value of working to get other youth in the troop to be as independent and confident as you are, then there is no way they can make the change to improve the troop.

Well an Eagle project is for a set time, so for his project it is only one.. But who knows he may continue it, or it may be picked up by someone else.. Sounds like these 50 mile bike hikes are put together regularly since the scout has been on several organized by others in the past.. Whether any of these are yearly or if just some group chooses to do one for various reasons I am not sure..

As for submitting to BL, I know the Eagle Board gave him and SM the suggestion and encouragement, but it should be the scouts decision if he wants it published.. He may be modest about it or something.

I am sure he knows the 100 mile bike hike he is aiming to join, it may be this exact one if there are not that many organized.

As I said, I am unsure what or who gave him the idea about the bikes.. Boys don't get an eagle advisor appointed until the come to the board to present their Eagle Project and then they only visit once or twice the project and are available to be called if the boy hits some bumps during the project and wants advice.. I don't think many troops in our area offer a troop level Eagle advisor, nor if they do if they assign them to help boys all throughout his scouting experience..  I am sure the SM was out asking for help and advise on behalf of this scout, but if he was the one to find the solution for him I don't know.. Most people don't know answers to these complex problems until hit with one, and then it means asking around on the web, at the council, at the round table etc. until they find someone with an answer.. 

So my husband returned with from the eagle board last night with an fantastic story which I hope will be picked up by Boys Life perhaps while or at completion of this scouts Eagle project, because it is inspirational.

I guess my husband was busy with something so did not see the young man walk in and only noticed him once seated.. He started off by stating that at 15 he nearly dropped out of scouting.. He obviously had the goal of Eagle in mind because what discouraged him was he has Spinal bifida and he saw no way around doing the choice of Merit badge requirement to do either swimming,hiking or biking. I am unsure who gave him the suggestion, but he ended up going to a bike shop which special fitted a three wheel bike for him to help him.. Then his father and him got to work, and from what I understand it was long and grueling to work up the muscle strength for the merit badge, but after that he kept on going..  Today he has done several 50 mile bike trips and is now working on enough muscle strength for a 100 mile bike trip..  This accomplishment also gave him courage to try snow skiing and he worked with a group that works with special needs. He could use normal skis but they rigged something to tie the front together somehow to help him and worked hard to be able to ski down the longest slope..

His Eagle project proposal is incorporating both biking and skiing.. He is organizing from start to finish his own 50 mile bike trip with an entrance fee.. The money raised will go to buying helmets for the special needs skiing club..

Probably my telling the story will be a spoiler if Boys Life does run it someday, but mine is definitely a brief summary of it, with maybe a fact or two wrong.. I am sure a story on it will still be interesting for all of us to read, especially if it carries the info about the execution of the Eagle project.

Our troop tried bugler POR a couple of years, thing was someone would take the job and if we got one bugle attempt for the whole 6 months that was special.. It became a great job to take if you wanted credit without doing a thing to earn it.. There was no follow through by adults or scouts to get the bugler to work the position, so my husband at one committee meeting argued that (and 1 or 2 others with similar outcomes) should not be used and got them off the list. He had for the 2 years just before the positions were handed out, comment on the last scout not doing the job and trying to put plans in place so the next person in the job did not get credit for doing nothing.. After 2 years of no improvement on working the positions he convinced everyone to take the jobs down..

Yes, I know boy-led, the boys should have decided and if they enjoyed having 2 or 3 jobs on the books that were do-nothing jobs we should of let them keep them going.. All I can say is Ba-Humbug..  

There's a huge spectrum of special needs kids in scouts. It requires patience and training to manage them. I train adults on how to manage such kids. Youth usually don't have the maturity to deal with it. Some do, most don't. Those who do are in scouts for their own journey, not to manage kids with greater needs. The farther one is down the spectrum the more adult involvement is necessary.

Reason why I worded my question the way I did:

I see the word adult used.. Do you feel it impossible for a boy to learn what you teach the adults?..

 

if the OP stated their child's problems were too much for the youth to handle then OK, that would have been the answer.. But, you just ridiculed the whole question as if a youth can not at all handle any difficulties at all if a child has special needs.. My personal experience is that many of our youth grew in leadership and confidence when given the responsibility of some of our special needs children.. But, I will acknowledge that our troop has only had kids whose special needs were somewhat mild when the child's issue meant they may not be the greatest team player.. Although one I admit not having the patience with because whatever he had it always came off as him not wanting to be there or do anything.. But, PL & SPL did better then I, then when one of our adults got training and came back to train both adults and youth on how to include him we absolutely saw a difference in him.

We have also had special needs where the problem was more physical and the scout himself was cheerful and enthusiastic, but the physical issues were serious, we have had two scouts that had medical issues that the scout could drop dead at any minute.. But scout and their parents wanted to live and experience life as normal as possible rather then live like they were already dead.

Frankly if that is the process, then I don't know why Bad Wolf thinks that a Patrol Leader would be unable to accomplish that.. As for an Adult, I don't see an issue either, in fact asking them to let him be alone until he calms down sounds a lot easier then asking them to do something with him (counseling, restraining, allowing him to do whatever he wants to do etc.)

Bad Wolf - I asked because in our troop the boys did work with the boys who had special needs.. BSA has a merit badge on disability Awareness, if done at our summer camp the boys spend quite a few hours with the Easter Seals group working with Special Needs kids, besides the 1 hour morning course, they spent about 3 hours during each afternoon free time working with them.. I don't see it as a ridiculous question..

But yes imachristian, I agree the PL should know the adults have their back should they need the help.. It just wasn't sounding like that was what you were describing.

We are looking for a troop that accepts him in a similar or better fashion than the prior troop AND where the adults can take the ball where necessary with our direct help.  

 

 I see the word adult used.. Do you feel it impossible for a boy to learn what you teach the adults?.. If you found a troop that was more boy led and asked you to instruct the SPL & PL as well as some adults, a troop that would mentor the boy leaders (SPL, PL) in how to work with your son.. Do you see this as an impossible feat? 

Just asking, I know you said you want boy-lead, but it seems you move back to wanting to lean on only adults for aiding your son when he gets stuck somehow..

If the SM of the folding troop has leveled out in his hot headedness, I would suggest approaching him and letting him know that since the COR remembers him 'when' and does not know him 'now' it might be best if he takes a committee position and works that in a way that he can show to the COR that he has matured.. At the same time suggest to the COR that people can mature and change with age, get him to agree to a committee position for this guy and for him to re-evaluate the man on who his is today, not what he was umpteen years ago..

I think it is time to cut all bonds to this old troop, unless you find that this couple or others in the troop are still attacking you or your son and hurting his chances of finding a new troop.. Otherwise if they are able to leave you be, then best for you and your peace of mind to let them be.. 

So let's look forward, what are your plans to find a new troop? Are you going to try to contact troop that this couple has already hurt your chances with, or do you have some idea of troops they are not involved with?

The round table doesn't get involved in this at all..  First the Charter Org, then the DE (who you have been working with so I am guessing knows the situation), then the Council Executive..

So last thread the Scoutmaster was on your side, or at least could work with your son as well as the other ASM's..  What happen to that support?..  These two ASM's could poison the well for people who don't know you, but in this troop if the others are successful working with your son, I don't understand how they could effect that.. The other SM's & ASM's should tell them it is their problem they don't have the ability to work with special needs kids, and the special needs scouts should not suffer and be kicked out of scouting due to their inadequacy's..  -or- are the SM & other ASMs really having issues with your son also?

I saw that clip, thought it was a good one.. My husband's job allows him to visit homes in the wealthy sections and he is amazed at the indoor play areas these homes put in so the child will be safe from ticks with lyme disease or mosquitoes (I forget the disease all were concerned about them carrying)..  So I don't know if children will be allowed out to play even when crime is at 0%.. 

I am surprised that Pokémon is still an big thing for today's kids..  That was big when my son was in elementary in the mid 90's...   Really???   It was such a fad type of thing.

I wonder if more will come out of the woodwork.. 

I guess I can understand a few staying quite if they fear not being believed,  but when one speaks up then the number of people who come out with the "me too" is overwhelming.. Back in the 60/70's when it was seen as the victims fault I know there was a reason for it, but I really sincerely hope things have changed enough that more are reporting and hopefully stopping the molester from victimizing scores of children or women after them.

Hopefully all will be resolved.. 

If the scout did do something that caused his membership to be revoked (pulled a knife threateningly or did damage to BSA property or something) then still the parents and scout should be made fully aware of the reason why the membership is being revoked.. If they don't have information they can do nothing in defense (someone else did property damage and framed the scout), or nothing to make sure the child learns from his mistakes.

If it is simply not wanting to deal with his Asperger's then that is not a good reason, they may be in need of finding him the right troop in the area to meet his needs, but not a reason to revoke membership from him.

......"patrol boys" (this was the 60's, so it was all boys) making sure nobody got run over at the less busy crossings. (Somewhat related to the subject of this thread, I wonder whether such things as student safety patrols still exist, at least for public street crossings - I can just imagine some insurance underwriter having a stroke at the idea of 13- and 14-year-olds officially appointed by the school to decide when it is safe for other kids to cross the street.)

My area must have been more progressive, I was a patrol girl in the 60's, but all I can remember is the white patrol belt with harness over the shoulder and badge I wore, can't quite remember what I did, it was something outside, not hall monitor or anything.. Also I had the position at a much younger age.. Probably 2nd or 3rd grade, so I doubt I did much in the directing of traffic..  I think we only had one of those  (an adult) at my elementary school, at the crosswalk directly into the main entrance of the school.. Otherwise we were crossing the street all without help..

I know at the end of camp we also got a printout that was to be used instead of blue cards, it was just different so my son had to explain it..

Perhaps it has only been implemented at camps?  I thought one of the camps mentioned it moving to unit level in the next year when we picked up my sons cards at the end of camp (White, typed up and the printout was a little different looking), but since my son moved from scout to scouter about 6 years back, if so then those with camps using computerized blue cards should have started to see it move to unit level by now. Perhaps that part didn't get off the ground..

Our District still does blue cards, but when my son went out of state provisional to different summer camps some were computerized.. He had to return with the computerized print outs and explain them.. I am sure I have seen one or two post about their blue cards now being computerized, as having hit it my radar was up for that to make note of it.

TwoCub -

I think quite a few people have advise the OP to still talk with the troop, and I have also suggested the OP to as the current SM to give the new troop leaders a call, especially since the OP has stated the current SM is a great guy and they and the other ASM are doing well dealing with their son.. That way the new troop will get a 3rd party view that may be more fair..

True, we only have the OP's side but in their shoes I would feel sabotaged if the person I was having difficulties with took it upon themselves to call ahead to paint a picture of me.. Since they are not the SM, there was no reason for them to do that.. Given the fact that they can not or will not try to work with the scout, they really have no ability to assess the situation impartially or fairly.

Sorry I was the one to bring up HIPAA, it was just my experience with it.. To be fair though I did state that even if violated this should be treated more as a reason to educate rather then throwing the book at them, and that in my opinion the fact they seem to contact the new troop in order to give them a poor, negative first impression before the OP visited should be the more serious offense.. 

PS. In some ways I don't understand this couples motives.. If they don't want to work with your son, I would think they would be delighted with you going to a different troop and would not interfere..

Hmmmm... Confusing..  I was told even before HIPAA that my collecting and holding medical forms, meant I was entrusted never to reveal what was on them.. I had thought it had more legalities if I did.. It wasn't just a shame on you..

But, I too thought the calling of names was a little extreme.. I was approached with it by an angry mother, whose child was one of the two we had that did have medical problems that caused our troop some problems until a member of our troop took a very lengthy training (I think 2 full weekends) put on by professionals in the area of working with children with disabilities.. The person who took this course was a nurse, anyway she came back and her knowledge helped immensely with him and 2 other scouts after that.. The troop saw fabulous changes with this child..   Anyway, after this mother took me to task on my violating HIPAA rules, I still thought it was over the top that you couldn't call out names of who needed to pass in medforms.. So I asked the nurse since her being in the medical profession I figured she would know better..  She agreed with the mother that I was violating HIPAA rules.. After that I didn't question it anymore..  I changed to calling the boys over and handing them the reminder on paper, although I thought this weird since anyone with a brain would still know why I called these boys over to hand them the paper and what basically the paper was asking for.