MollieDuke

We have a boy in one of the Troops I work with that is a very well rounded young man. However, he's gotten specialized into first aid, fire building, and new scout instruction. Not that I feel these are not important; they are. It's just that I've noticed that he doesn't get an opportunity to serve in the OTHER ways he's very good, like planning ceremonies, cooking, planning outings, etc. He's also the best archer in our district, but age prevents him from helping (or so he was told--he's 15).

This post made me wonder if we shouldn't take more care to do what ISN'T easy more often. Example: When we need first aid lessons, we ask this kid to help because he requires no assistance or training, so it's easier. Wouldn't it be better to bring another kid up to speed instead?

Just my thoughts......BTW, love the quote. I'll be using it often for so many areas of my life, including MY LIFE.

Thanks,

Mollie

Someone PM'd me about this topic asking me what I had to share, and then my computer crashed. It's still on the fritz,so I'm using the library's. If you were the one who PM'd me, please do so again. I have print materials I can send via US postal mail if you are still interested, but I don't want you to post your address here.

Sorry for the delay, but I can't get back to that email again as it's in the crashed laptop. Sorry.

MollieD.

I host Advancement Training for all new leaders at the request of our District Roundtable Commissioner. I've done Advancement for different units forever, and I've probably seen nearly every situation described.

It's been my personal experience that some individuals (particularly MOMS for some reason) become DLs so that their boys just don't have to work. They want little Johnny to have awards pasted on every free spot of their uniform and do nothing to achieve it because....well...it's work and maybe little Johnny does't want to do that work. I teach in a high school, and believe me, it does transition into every aspect of their lives. I see it and have to counteract it each and ever new class I get.

As for advancement, I try to get these people, as well as those wanting to do it right, to see that they do no favors for these kids. Advancement is more about the journey than the result. If they are denied the journey, how can they have a memory, or a lasting friendship, or a skill learned?

Personally, I feel the culture of our country is too focused on awards and prizes than the journey, so I try to focus on that aspect which I feel many moms neglect. One is an instant gratification, one is a lifelong gratification.

As for moving them on together, that comes into play at schools as well. I have kids in high school who can't read. They can't write past 2nd grade level. They were passed on to be with their peers. Most of these kids are behavior problems now. NO, I'm not generalizing. I could show you proof in their IEPs and Detention trips. They DO coorelate. So, what good did we do by passing them on something they have not mastered? It's a mess. As for me, the answer is more looking at an entire child and not just a sum of his badges or awards.

Good luck, and if needed host a training at the district level on advancement and use the Advancement Guideline booklet for your source. Make sure you have someone who actually is impartial, but then invite both your leaders AND the parents. Once they see the hipocracy, they may insist it be done correctly (or not), but at least you'll see where the water is deepest and can leave if it doesn't work for you. There is no reason to have this major of a difference in theory if you feel it is not good for your boy. It's about the BOY after all, not about you interacting with this DL. :-)

My troop has a similar problem with a twist. The older boys "say" they already know all their basic scout skills, yet many cannot tie the most basic knots on request. They cannot teach younger scouts b/c they can't do it themselves. We have a new SM and it appears that the former SM allowed them to be signed off for "trying" the new skills instead of actually learning them. That said, these boys don't want to interact with the younger ones (probably b/c they can't actually DO the tasks assigned), they don't work on anything else, and basically they arrive, go to a corner and visit. That's pretty much all there is to it. They, then, fuss about being bored and not having anything for THEM. We've tried to talk with them about what they want to do, and they say they want to do X and Y. We have them plan it, but they either never finish it or they don't show up to the activity and it's done with the younger boys only. We have no middle of the road age boys, so it's older boys and younger boys only. We have a wonderful troop guide who works hard with the younger ones, comes, participates, and then is disrespected by the older peers for "being a kid" at meetings. It's a mess that I'm starting to feel was started long before the current SM came on the scene. My thought is that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him plan an event or attend an event. Thoughts to help this out????

Thanks.

Mollie

That's great info on fixing things. That, and sending personal info like SSN online were my biggest questions on this. I have several scouts with missing or mistyped info, and I want to get these in order without having to drive an hour each way to get to and from the council office with my paperwork for them to fix things. I have one scout that is working on Eagle, and at this point, he's the top priority to fix, but fixing it from home would be great! Since I'm advancement chair for three groups (one crew, one pack, one troop), does online work for all three?

Thanks again,

Mollie

Just noticed there are several posts (albeit older) for camping near DC. I thought I'd post a suggestion that I know about which may or not be good for some of you.

There is a KOA campground in Harper's Ferry, WV which is famous for the Civil War John Brown's Raid. The campground was great last time I was there. From there, you can travel a short time to the Metro and take the subway into DC (at the small fee of $5/day/ride all day) thus eliminating the driving into and around the city. I can't remember just now how far the Metro is, but there are alot of commuters that live near here, so it can't be too far.

Also, there is a great Jellystone near Antietam battlefield in Williamsport, MD. Again, a drive to the Metro and into the city.

Both of these are near great Civil War sites as well (Harper's Ferry, Antietam, Gettysburg, and more). They're also about 2 hours from Gettysburg or less, and the C&O canal is there as well as whitewater rafting, tubing, hiking is superb, and the Antietam battlefield has a scout trail that if you finish it, patches are available. It uses orienteering, so be very good at it before you try this trail.

You could really pack some adventure into this trip, and I thought I'd just put this idea out there for anyone considering next year's trip to our nations' capital.

Having a little experience with Troopmaster and living in a very rural area quite a distance from the Council offices, I was looking forward to the online reporting of Advancement.

Anyone have thoughts on this including sending certain info on kids over the internet, such as their social security numbers? Or is it only done with PIDs?

What about checking kids' records for, say, Eagle BOR to make sure all the records match. Can you just print off a page for that from the "main office"?

Is Troopmaster the only compatible software? That's what I have now, but I'm not so ingrained in it that I can't entertain other ideas.

What's the real downside of online reporting?

Having just begun some special work in a local high school, I will tell you that this is NOT unique to Scouting. I see parents every week in my office wanting me to change a kids' grade or get them on "X" team or pull strings to make them look better than they are on paper. I have adjusted my strategies overall when I work with these kids to include not only honesty, but honesty with themselves. If they are not an athlete, it's OK. If they make a C and it's deserved, it's OK. Learn from it. Kids often learn more from their failures than the successes.

That said, I will also add that my daughter is in college. Taking a class where leadership was stressed, she caught several students lying, cheating and in two cases actually stealing to raise their grades. These students also kept other students from getting leadership chances due to the lying and cheating. When my daughter found out that not only did the professor know of this behavior, but was encouraging it, she dropped the class. She went to his office and basically told him that if that was his idea of leadership, he was really nuts and handed him a drop slip. I was so proud of her decision to go voice her concerns and stand up for her beliefs.

What I guess I'm trying to show is that we're raising a generation of whiners who've been "handed" quite a lot. When they don't get it honestly, they are prompted usually through adult behaviors to cheat to gain that which they are told to value.

In this particular case, I doubt if it is a case of the youth gaining Eagle as it is the DAD wanting to say that as a SM, he had an Eagle son. I'd bet if you'd ask this youth (and get an honest answer), he never wanted all this in the first place.

In our troop, we've started a new philosophy. If they want Eagle, help them as much as you can, but if they don't it's ok. If you were serving in the Navy and came out as a CPO and never made Admiral, you'd still have served, yes? So, why is scouting different. It should be about the journey and not the Eagle, IMHO.

That said, I also have a mom who's pushing Eagle on her boy. She even went so far to call me to yell at me for not "getting her boy his Eagle" by now. He's a Lifer and will likely finish that way. He's lost interest. I've asked him about it, he says he's "working on it" yet I never see anything done.

The new SM had a conference about it with several older boys, mostly a how-to session, and this boy was telling him that the former SM had told this boy that "he'd make sure he got his Eagle somehow", and several other statements that made the new SM feel this former SM was running an Eagle factory. The new administration refuses to do that. If this boy is waiting on the factory to produce him as Eagle, it's not going to happen, so now we have to really work with this kid and parents to see what is really going on.

I say let the boys do what they feel is right for them. Sometimes not realizing a goal (and even if you regret it later) can be a great life lesson for adulthood, too.

Just my 2 cents.

The former SM of our group and I sat down with seasoned parents last year and came up with a New Parents "What I wish I'd known" type list. We were surprised that "Advancement" topped the seasoned parent's list.

What we found out from these Eagle and Life parents was that they wish they'd known more about how advancement worked from the beginning. Not just the basics, but the nuts and bolts. Example: they wish they'd been oriented early on to the change in the level of expectation on things like MBs and the amount of work required.

To that end, I creatd a parent's guide to advancement for each and every parent--not just the newbies. We then had a parent's meeting and discussed what advancement is and isn't. Some of the stuff I included are:

1. There is no more "Akela". There are leaders, mentors, counselors, etc. The lingo is different. Each was explained.

2. There is a higher level of expectation and it is not expected that your boy will be able to achieve it today. Help is available.

3. When the MB counselor asks your boy to "write about....." that does NOT mean print it off an internet site and bring it in. It means write it IN YOUR OWN WORDS. (that caused a real stink believe it or not)

4. MBs are not the sole focus of BSA. There are rank advancements too and how they go hand in hand.

The biggest one was that little quirk parents here in my area cannot understand that to paraphrase from the Advancement guidelines goes something like, "A badge is not a reward for something attempted, but a recognition of what they can consistently do" or something similar. (don't have my book with me). They also didn't like that MBs are individually done in most cases. They want the troop meetings to foucs on everything and have no accountability at home. I even had one new mom who said she was "busy" and the SM would have to make all the arrangements for her boy to get to and from the MB counselor, meetings, and outings. She is a stay home mom with one child and frankly I see her as one of those moms that believes BSA is baby sitters of America. Her boy is a high maintenance kid and I think she sees this as her break from him. (BTW, they tried 4H and FFA before BSA and quit b/c those leaders wouldn't be chauffeur either).

I think new parents are different everywhere, but I recommend the parent review of "what they wish they'd known". It was a real eye opener for us.

I feel the same. We moved to a new area a few years ago, and as it is terribly rural, we decided to try to be more involved in the Council stuff mainly just to "stay in the loop" so to speak. The CE at the time was only interested in numbers and money. Boys came somewhere further down. This angered me so much that I quit doing council level stuff. Then, this CE left and we have a new one. He's not AS BAD, but I fear that bottom line is still numbers/money. I've had to ask for assistance in a couple of areas lately, and while he seems an ok fella, his first questions haven't been the boys, their successes, or whatever, but how many new recruits we had and how much popcorn we sold (which is a sore spot with me anyhow). I haven't cared on that level for several years, and it no longer bothers me. I have decided that it takes that disinterested attitude for me to be able to entirely focus on my scouts. Otherwise, I get sucked into that "other realm" where I divide my thoughts too much. I think there are just those that can do both and those that can't. Eventually, I feel those that can divide their time get tired of the hipocracy and do exactly what you did. However, is it any different than any other big business? Most big businesses believe the bottom line is the checkbook and numbers, too, so should we be shocked? I'm sure the jury is still out on this area, but I know you are not alone in your withdrawl from the fray. Many of us did the same.

Good luck with it and just enjoy the ship. That's what the "hokey pokey" is really all about anyway.

I am so glad to see that you all feel as I do that this problem seemed to stem from the adults in charge. I have inherited a real mess and so has the new SM. According to the outgoing SM, he did counsel these kids and according to the kids--well, big shock--he didn't. I really believe he didn't. Can't prove it either way, but the way things went down just prior to his leaving, I can believe the kids easier than the outgoing SM. I do feel that after the holidays especially, we need a new SM conference w/ not only these two kids, but the others too. It'll take me this long to wade through this morass I've inherited and for the adults to decide what to do for specifics in each case as each and every kid has something either missing or questionable in each case. Another example is that the kids say they did "Collections" as a group once last year. None of them ever got the MBs and there is no record, although, they can all tell me the details of not only their collection, but the other kids' collections they brought in, too. I really believe they did this, but no blue cards can be located, no advancement sheets, and no record at council office. It's a real mess. I've been going over each child's blue cards, advancement sheets, and charts with each family just to see what's missing and I started with the older boys first mainly because they don't have the time that younger kids have.

I really feel these adults need taken to task for what they've done, but there is no way do so. IMHO it's a sad day for scouting when the leaders can't abide by the scout law.

The new SM is dedicated, but the boys are no longer excited or really even care. Many have dropped out. We haven't had council support in over two years due to administrative changes and a bunch of other stuff, and finally, we're getting help. I was recruited because I do advancement in another group as well, and already was familiar with the paperwork, but I've never run across a mess like this.

I think my recommendation to the committee will be to allow these boys to continue as able and recommend SM conference to stress participation using the book and quotes from that as sources as suggested above. I also think that at that SM conference, we should include the parents. Thoughts on that?

Anyhow, thanks again for making my job a little easier as usual. It's sad, but we'll wade through it somehow---we have to.

I looked up how long these boys have been Life. Boy ONE: 1 year 5 weeks. Boy TWO: nearly 2 years. Now, Boy ONE: PoR was Chaplain's Aide, but he didn't finish the 6 months before he was working according to his attendance records. He's attended few activities since then. (Actually, I've found only two so far) Boy TWO: Was elected SPL, however, according to his attendance records, he attended less than half of the 6 month period and seems to have been replaced due to lack of attendance from what I can see, and a new one elected close to his 6 month mark. So I assume this would qualify even though he didn't attend but half the meetings/outings/activities?

Chaplain's Aide was never replaced, so I assume Boy ONE is still this position, although, I can't be certain. I've inherited records that I"m still perusing and trying to make sense of, so I'm only going by their troop records. I"m trying to put them into troop master at this time, so I can see it more clearly.

Personally, I doubt if either boy will try to attain Eagle (which is rather sad since they are so close). Boy ONE has a lot of family obligations right now, so it's really hard on them. Boy TWO doesn't seem very interested, although, his father certainly is (although his father doesn't bring him to meetings or activities and such...just sits around once in awhile and complains that son isn't getting Eagle yet).

It's just a learning exercise at this point for those of us who are new. Sort of a "what if" exercise. I do think this has helped us along quite a bit already which I appreciate, so keep it coming if there are any more thoughts.

Thanks again.

We have two boys that are working on finishing MBs and have made NO effort on Eagle Projects, but I am wondering this using these two as examples:

Boy ONE: Works to help parents pay bills right now, but must work on meeting nights. Does MBs with counselors, and can "discuss" when it says "discuss" will have "written" stuff and not "printed off internet". Cannot attend many functions due to family circumstances right now. IF (and that's a big IF), he decides to try an Eagle project soon, what would your take be on the "active" part? I personally feel that since he's still plugging away at it with the MBs and he's not just ditching meetings, that he should be allowed if he's willing and able to take on the extra task.

Boy TWO: Doesn't work or do any school activities outside of school time. Says he "forgets" meetings even though they've been on the same date/time for nearly 20 years and certainly have not changed during his time in the troop. On recent MBs, he cannot "discuss" any topics with counselor so was sent home to "study up" for discussion, and was told that "printing off the internet" is equal to plagerism and "write a....." must be in HIS OWN WORDS or no go--haven't seen him except two or three times in 7 months and no further work has been done on MBs in 7 months......This child is nearly 18. IF, and again big IF, he tries for an Eagle project, should this kid be considered "active" for Eagle advancement purposes? My thoughts are yes and no due to occasional attendance of meetings. There has been no advancement at all, no effort made to attend meetings even with frequent (every 2 weeks) contact with him, and he often "forgets" meetings, or "must study my (insert subject here)" even though with one subject, the committee found he's not even taking that subject, so question of trustworthiness arose too.

The question hasn't come up with these boys yet, but the committee and SM, all fairly new to all this have discussed it, so we thought we'd post here to see if anyone here could enlighten us with an experience you've had. We've decided to question the DE after the holidays also, but sometimes personal experiences are very enlightening as well.

Thanks in advance for the enlightenment.

Our troop is in much the same shape. We're very, very rural and 4H and FFA compete for our time, basically. Our boys are not so dedicated except for two. Our CO is hands off except for allowing us free reign over our "hall". Our SM inherited this troop from a man who could have cared less about it, really. He led it right to the brink of death, then bailed. The SM has been trying everything with no success. No new boys for over a year, and only 6 "active" which is an understatement. Our problem right now, though, is that you never know who will or will not ever show up for anything! We've got two boys ready for "Eagle Projects" who we've not seen since last May and say they're nearly done with all merit badges, etc. I don't know how they are doing this, since they've not been seen for over 6 months, but ok....whatever.......It's hard on the SM, but it's also very hard on my son. I just can't drive the over 25 miles to get to another troop every week with my work schedule. I work too late for this and no one else from my area goes there.

I commend everyone who is still in there plugging away at it, even though it may not be a fantastic solution. It's at least something that an adult is still trying to give of their time even if there isn't many people there to receive it. That's a gift, and I say THANK YOU to you even though I don't know you. I feel your pain.

In our groups BOTH BS and CS, we consider pulling a knife a CRIME. If this child were on the streets of NYC and pulled a knife on someone on the street, it would be a crime. If they were in school and pulled a knife, they would be taken down and it would constitute a crime. I'm rather concerned that this child's first defense is pulling a knife ESPECIALLY if he's from an anti-violence family, because exactly where did he learn this particular line of defense?

Make sure the parents realize that it doesn't matter WHY he pulled the knife. It is a CRIME and cannot be tolerated. Then, tell them that considering the trouble they seem to have in attempting to justify their son's crime by pointing out what was being done to him (real or distorted view), then they should stay with him on the next few scout functions and be his guide for his temper.

I'm not negating the behavior of the other children, however, pulling weapons is a crime and should always be treated as such. If he'd pulled a GUN, we'd not be having this discussion.

I work in the school system, and believe me, kids know all too well how to point blame on everyone except themselves and we've got to get a handle on excusing bad behaviors for kids. They MUST learn to step up to the plate and be responsible for their actions. You cannot control what others say and do to you, but you can and must control your response to it. This child, clearly, has learned to point blame toward others to get the weight off himself.

Make sure he has a watchdog from now on and pat him down before he's allowed to hurt someone by not being able to control himself. You're skating on thin ice if you do not put some serious restrictions in place with this kid.

My son went with a group to the Spy Museum two years ago and still says it was the best thing he'd ever done in DC.

We used to go every year and he's done all the Smithsonian stuff, all the special stuff, and all the outlying stuff, and he still ranks the Spy Museum as one of his favorites. He even has a shirt from there that he wears only as a "special" shirt that says something about the museum and on the back says "I was never there". It's cute.

He also says he'd rank the Air and Space Museum below some of the others. He's practically grown up at the Wright Patterson Air Force Museum, though, and he loves it so much more.

I'd say that if you have kids that are really interested in all that type stuff, then yes, but if not, skip it. Most boys actually are, though, IMHO>

MollieD.

For younger crowds particularly, I highly recommend any of "The ButterCream Gang" films from Feature Films for Families. The one titled "No More Baths" particularly comes to mind. In this film, the kids refuse to take baths until a man who is about to become homeless is allowed to keep his home (as I remember)

Also, I loved Rigoletto from this same company. In this film, a young girl goes to work for a disfigured man who eventually teaches her to sing. She, in turn, shows him that his heart is uglier than his face will ever be and the end is astonishing.

Just about any movie from this company would work for this requirement. When my own kids were small, I bought nearly every film they had. Great family entertainment with no objectionable language, no obvious violence, and no "adult" scenes or humor. Very good stuff.

Let me first say that I work a job with kids whose behaviors are "less than optimal" at school. Now..........

If this child has changed schools--it's a red flag. Problems with behavior or academics or both?

If this child has explosive or mildly threatening behaviors, this is a sign of problems somewhere along the line. You can't assume they at scouts. It may have been a failing grade in math that day or something much worse like a stalker online. You can't ever know that, so it's hard to judge behaviors alone, but anything like or similar to a threatening stance, word, or deed should be taken care of immediately BY AN ADULT not the SPL or PL or whomever. Today's society of youth is that threats, veiled or not, usually can escalate out of control if meant, and are a cry for help if not, but either way another child cannot help on the level that boy may actually need.

That said, you need to phrase things with this child in concrete ways such as;

I NEED you to.....(explain behavior you want or job you want done)

I CANNOT ALLOW.....(explain behavior you don't want or the inappropriate actions/verbals)

Never say I WANT or YOU SHOULD or even worse give choices. This gives too many ways for this kid to fail.

The reason I am saying this is that I have many kids who are doomed to fail. They can't relate to peers/they fail, they can't write or read well/they fail, they can't control their language/they fail. What we need to do is set clear, firm parameters so there is no way they can fail then as they succeed, reward them.

The behavior problem children do not respond properly to regular discipline. They get defensive and withdrawn making it worse. If this child is exhibiting behaviors such as semi-threatening behaviors, anger issues, blurting issues, "I was ONLY doing....." issues, stuff like this, then he qualifies. It doesn't mean he's a bad kid. It just means he views discipline as optional sometimes and it's most likely due to feelings of inferiority somewhere else in his life that have little to do with scouting.

Try this site: www.disciplinehelp.com to try to understand this child better. It has descriptions of behaviors, what works, and most importantly what does not work.

Hope this helps.

I think that while there are certainly problems involving this individual, we can't overlook that "active participation" requirement to advance. If boys are not attending/participating, they cannot advance. In our troop, there are guidelines for our very busy boys. We have the usual football players, actors, and ill kids who can't come for some reason or other, but they know what we consider a "good reason" to miss and just "I forgot" doesn't teach responsibility to them.

Examples we use can be: Would your baseball coach allow you to miss 6 practices and still play? Probably not. Would your director allow you to miss 6 rehearsals and still keep your role in the school play? Probably not.

Why then, should Scouting expect less? When you join a group, there are rules and guidelines and teaching kids not to follow them because they are "too busy" to live up to those responsibilites isn't teaching them to be responsible adults.

Our group has set a 50% participation minimum and that is IF they call the SM or ASM to say why they missed within a 24 hour window (unless they are hospitalized or something like that). If they take the initiative to call, we consider it "half-present" since they recognized their responsibility to phone just like calling in sick at work. This was set by a request from our parents, actually, because we were seeing too much absence that the parents didn't know about from their kids that were driving to the meetings and not arriving. Our group will hold advancement if a child isn't actively participating and this does not include doing merit badges at home (again by request from the parents). It also includes meetings, outings, work parties, public service, the whole shebang.

We have seen a huge increase in attendance, better attitudes, and more interest in advancement since the parents insisted on this change. Was it because the parents are seeing it done or the boys, themselves? I don't know. What I do know is that boys tend to be lax in attending meetings in favor of more "fun" things or where their friends are and expect to advance anyhow just because they earned the required merit badges at summer camp. This is true throughout our entire district, not just our troop. I think our parents had a good, clear vision of their sons that we, as leaders trying to be accomodating, missed out on.

It worked for us. I know it's not a popular opinion for some reason, but there is a participation requirement and our parents decided to make that a priority.

No! (or maybe Yes.........)

Let me explain by using an analogy:

I am a "Woodstock Generation" person. (the original/not the remake). Anyhow, I wore the hippie look the first time around. Now, my teenage daughter is wearing that look, but her colors/fabrics are so much BETTER than mine ever were. They wear better, are more durable, have lycra, all that jazz.

How does that translate to this topic? Well, I think we have the ability to use better fabrics, better cuts of uniforms, new styles in pants specifically, wider shirts especially in the shoulder to accomodate those "football" types. Do we do that? Obviously not. I think making the BSA official uniform tye dye just because it's a fad for right now would certainly be incorrect. Making pants out of something besides that itchy canvas junk would make wonderful sense. Making the shirts in a wider cut would be more like the shirts the kids wear everyday and thus more comfortable for them.

Now, I haven't thought of much about those darn patches, however, I never sew mine through that plastic, I just loop through the string. My son is extremely active, so re-sews are common about once a year, but I do wish it was easier. I also just had to replace his MB sash, so I sewed all the MBs together with fishing line, then removed them all in one big "blanket" and just centered it over the new sash and stitched around the outside then tacked the rest. Much easier than sewing them all back on one at a time.

So I guess my answer to that question is that I expect full uniform in our group. Our only exception is that during summer when school is out, we do Class B's for fun. I just think if they were made a little more roomy with better fabrics, they'd not complain as much.

IMHO,

MollieD

If you were an archery "range master" (that may not be the right term) for Cubs, can you be one for Boy Scouts/Venturers as well? If not, what do you do to be cerfified for Boys/Venturers?

Also, if you have a police officer that is a gun shooting instructor to the police, can they be a "range instructor/master" to Boys/Venturers without any/or much more training for shotguns/rifles?

We're trying to find range instructors for these for our district and were just curious.

Thanks,

Mollie

Two SM's ago, our group had skills and boy led troop. Then.....Next SM came in and in our group the leadership amounted to an adult telling each kid exactly what to do (more like Cubs). The adults planned each and every thing they did which basically amounted to basketball/football and very few scout skills. It's a very, very long story that goes over nearly 6 years, so I won't try to detail it, but suffice it to say that the boys weren't satisfied and that now they seem to be very excited over the changes. These kids haven't attended camp, advanced a rank, or earned a MB in over a year. Sad. The new SM is an old scouter who seems OK. My son likes him and the boys seem to as well. He's recently recruited a new ASM and as a pair they seem great. I had a talk with the new SM last week and he said that the boys with the most natural leadership skills seem to be those the former SM said didn't have a leadership bone in their bodies. HMMMMM......Anyhow, the winds of change seem to be going well, at least with the boys.

I like what Seattle said about the boys seeing how these skills can help them by doing it. I think they'd remember it longer that way. I do, however, think that we shouldn't negate the "presentation" message of IM, although I thought it was a "joke" when I read it...(guess I was wrong???). Anyhow, I do feel that kids will have to get up in front of groups and speak, or write appropriately, or whatever and if it weren't important, there wouldn't be MBs of Communication, Computers, and Public Speaking as choices. I just don't think it is the main objective of Scouting.

I think these kids will finally be able to do more this year than in the past. I just hope that my younger son will reap the benefits of the new SM.

Mollie

This is spun from another thread because it is a situation that we're struggling with in our troop. Our boys have neither leadership nor knot/lashing skills. Long story! Anyhow....we've about decided to get the basics first and intense leadership second. Reasoning being the following: if a boy falls and needs a lashed travois, can they make one? if a child needed to make a shelter for some reason when he's out on grandpa's hill and sees it's getting ready to rain can he make one? can he signal in absense of his cell phone battery? I know these are just "what if" examples, but we're supposed to make these boys self reliant and although I realize leadership is important and I'm all for it, well....shouldn't they get these basics down so they can survive and then lead others to do the same? When you're starting from nothing which do you choose? I think of the youngsters in our group that are being led into the "wilderness" by the older boys and the older boys couldn't even make a shelter if they had to (well a couple of them might), but by heaven, they may be a good leader at a meeting. To me, I guess it's troop by troop seeing which you do most, but since Scouting is supposed to be outing, then I think maybe the basics should come first.....at least till they're mastered........then move to leadership.....

IMHO,

MollieD

While I love this idea in theory, if we used it in practice in our troop then we'd never have any Eagle Scouts for quite awhile. Let me give you the cliff's notes as to why: We've had some discipline problems, some alcohol problems, and some major differences with boys lately (past couple of years). SM has been part of the problem, so it's continued. Finally got a new SM last year and it's turning around, but using this as a basis---only parents that were NUTS would allow this group out alone. They are getting a little better, but it was touch and go for awhile. Hope to be able to say that eventually we can do exactly this type of thing. It's a good ideal to shoot for, I think.