MollieDuke

I really believe that not only has our BSA program been watered down, but our entire educational system been watered down. As a teacher, I'm amazed at honor's level kids who cannot spell simple words or complete a simple set of instructions in order with no errors.

That said, our troop feels so strongly about things being watered down, that we have implemented a 3-1 meeting rule of thumb. The first three meetings are by the book (new book), and the next one is an older book achievement or activity and so on. We also ask that each boy learn the basics and build on those basics.

That is where I think people drop the ball. I think they do the basics and forget to follow up or ask for more as boys get older.

Fire by friction should be taught to each and every boy no matter what. YOu never know when a boy may need this if they get lost in the woods or if they are in an auto accident where they are stranded for awhile particularly in the snowy areas. SOmetimes these skills can be useful way down the road.

Beware of mediocrity. It's everywhere.

Technically, due to HIPPA regulations, parents do not have to disclose medical information to anyone not a medical professional and even then, it's on a need to know basis only.

That said, after HIPPA, our troop committee made a troop rule that anyone not having their form filled out and willing to disclose meds HAD to have a PARENT on every outing.

Ironically, this came from a kid who was diabetic who didn't self medicate and got quite ill on a weekend campout and no parent around.

My comment (to parents and non-scouters especially) when discussing the meds for ADHD is:

If your child was diabetic, would you give him an insulin holiday for the weekend when he is exercising more, eating differently, etc? Then, why would you give him a medication holiday when he's out in the woods, away from the normal setting, possibly overstimulated by the newness and needs every assistance to stay focused.

I say if they are medicated, can't self medicate, and/or no proper health form then they DON"T go.

Just my 2 cents,

Mollie

I feel that some of the reason for the MB changes to the camping is due to a situation I found myself in some years ago. I had a boy that had come to the MB counselor and said he'd camped with a "troop" for 5 days and nights and wanted it counted toward his 20. He talked about pitching a tent and all that, but.........

COme to find out, this child had attended a "day camp" at a local park and was "camping" in his grandparents RV which is better equipped than my house.

This MB Counselor was very upset by this finding and refused to finish this boy's card until he finished his 5 days again. The "witnesses" (those that attended) said this child had no time inside that tent at all..that he put it up and took it right back down b/c the park wouldn't allow a tent on a RV site. He couldn't have stayed in it even for a night much less 5.

As Advancement Chair, they came to me with this problem, and I referred them to the District level since I felt that already awarded things shouldn't be taken away unless District level or Council level was informed. They did side with the MB Counselor, but it caused a lot of hard feelings. We began making it VERY clear from then on that it meant IN A TENT and a TROOP/BSA event, not a Cub Day camp during one day and then just camping w/grandma for the rest of the time.(This message has been edited by MollieDuke)

Our EBoR's are district level, but our District Eagle person doesn't actually choose people to assist. We have a calling list of those willing to serve and we call till we get a few people and they all show up at the candidate's home troop on the designated night for the EBoR. We started doing that to try to avoid the local stigma of having SMs kids "get" Eagle by being the son of the SM. This way, our district group has the same folks all the time, the boys have usually already met them somewhere down the line, and the kids all know that none have ties to the home troop, so it seems best.

The boys love it around here. They feel so proud when they can present to other adults and represent their troop in this way.

One year, we did "Survivor: Cub Scout Edition" which was a real crowd pleaser. We competed with each Den as a "tribe". They got colored bandanas for "buffs" and competed in age appropriate games simulating the challenges in Survivor. At the end of the night, we had a fire and a talent show by the Webelo's Den that was doing Showman pin that month. It was really super. The Tiger Cubs won that year, so don't think it's shaded for age. You just have to come up with stations and places to hike to for the next challenge and stuff like that. No one got voted out, but it was great fun.

I am going to jump in here to say that as a high school teacher, I've heard it all, I think.

I will also say that to kids, due to their culture, these words aren't as offensive as they used to be for US at that age. If you don't believe how much they're being desensitized to it, listen to Insane Clown Possee....they have one song that uses the "F" word something like 97 times in one song. Believe me, kids don't care.

That is not to say that WE shouldn't care. We need to make it almost MORE important to use better language. I have "classroom appropriate" language and "peer language" in the area around my room. If a student is talking softly to a peer in the hallway and I pass by hearning an objectionable word, that's peer language, but if it's in my room or deliberately said near me, I will correct by saying "classroom appropriate" or I've also been known to use a kindergarten whistle. Believe me, they get sick to death of hearing the whistle for each infraction.

I start each year, though, by explaining that while their culture is such that these words are used, they are not only inappropriate in school, but in other situations such as a workplace as well and therefore in my room we will be practicing workplace and classroom language at all times, but I also include correct grammar in that as well.

I suggest you have a group meeting, discuss how you know it's part of their culture but you cannot tolerate it in scouting. I would also tell them that this is a rule just like the buddy system in swimming, and it is not optional or flexible. I would also get that whistle and when you hear bad language, blow it loudly. This gets really old really quickly with older boys particularly. I'd also keep a running tally on each boy if possible. If after a month (or a pre-set training period) these same boys continue to spout expletives, then expel them. Also, I would tell them that just because so and so does it, does not make it acceptable behavior here, thus eliminating the parent factor.

My troop says very little, but they knew going in that this was unacceptable in our troop, but believe me........in the school systems it's rampant.

MollieD.

My son's troop has an honor patrol. It's their home patrol, but they are each assigned duties with the younger boys each day. For example: My son, Little Duke, sleeps with the Honor Patrol, helps them pitch their tent (which is one big communal tent at this point just for fun at their request), they make their own food, they have their own activities not allowed by the younger boys (like a hike each day with just them), etc. This patrol also goes on high adventure activities w/o any younger boys, but isn't really a "Venture" patrol as such. That said, each day the older boys are assigned activities like seeing firewood chopped in younger patrols, tent inspection, food inspection, hike leaders, and even "shower" enforcers if necessary. They also are assigned a scout skill to teach or reinforce each weekend like first aid or knots or orienteering.

The honor patrol is made up of boys that are minimum of Life Scout, at least 14 years old, and already having the camping, first aid, cooking, and a couple of other merit badges I can't remember just now. Most of these boys either have their Eagle already or are working on their projects. Those that are not working on one are still in the patrol, but it just seems that nearly all of them go on to try for Eagle at some point. Maybe the company they are keeping????

Anyhow, this is a group that would have probably dropped out without this patrol after gaining Eagle, so I am all for it. I do think that it is quite easy for them to become disconnected with the younger boys, though, so I think the involvement requirement is necessary. Just my humble opinion.

Mollie

Hi guys, I need help with jacket fitting for my dear hubby. He's about 6 feet tall and about 235 pounds with very broad shoulders/chest and upper arms. He's a firefighter and so his upper body strength is key to fitting this jacket. Normally, he'd wear an XL to an XXL shirt, but generally, they'd be a tad short.

If I were to order this jacket for him for his birthday, should it be XXL LONG or XXL regular in anyone's opinion that owns one? If anyone thatt owns one would be able to measure from the collar to tail and from under arm seam to under arm seam that would help if anyone is willing to do that for me.

I'd appreciate any help I can get.

Thanks in advance.

MollieD

I had an experience several years ago with a boy who didn't want to schedule his ECOH. I finally cornered him one night and asked him why. His mom wasn't around, it was just him and me. He finally told me he didn't like the Eagle Ceremony ideas used by the troop, didn't feel they fit him, and felt they were all just a canned bunch of words anyway.

I challenged him to write his own "perfect" ceremony to see what the difference was, and we both loved it! I got him to propose this to the committee and he was allowed to have HIS own ceremony written BY him/FOR him. He loved it. It wasn't long, but it was HIS.

Sometimes, I think these boys just hate it because it's the same each and every time. It's not "special" to them if 17 of their friends have had the exact same one. It worked to vary this one, so I say suggest it to your boys, particularly those that are a bit younger than 18, and see where it goes from there.

Make them own the process, and maybe they'll like it better. When my son had his Eagle, his girlfriend planned the reception for him as a surprise. He knew she had a surprise, but didn't know what it was. He went through it quickly for her. Now, had I asked, maybe not. He loved the reception. It was very well done, and she really enjoyed doing it for him. Rather odd situation, but again, it worked.

Hi Pete,

I agree that I am sick of ADD/ADHD being used as a pass for poor parenting. That said, I work with Behavior Disability children and 99% of my students have ADD/ADHD and anger management issues.

That said, I wish I had more parents like you. You seem to realize that your son has problems particularly when his meds run out of juice in the evenings. That's great! Most of my parents, if they even show up for a conference, just say that it's my job to control these kids and they basically don't care (which just makes them more angry and hurt, frankly).

I do feel, though, that we are missing a HUGE chunk of info which Pete provided us......

Pete, Jr. was acting out by hitting a tree which was annoying to Boy Two. Boy Two asked him to stop. Pete, Jr chose to continue making Boy Two angry (even after apparently Boy Two was having issues of his own all day, but Daddy Pete doesn't say why). At some point, Boy Two completely lost it and kicked Pete, Jr. from a chair in order to make him stop. Boy Two was at the end of his anger management rope and yet, no one seemed to have addressed this child's issue.

Daddy Pete is great in saying his child was wrong and taking responsibility for the KNIFE. We miss the boat a smidge, though, when we add "reasons" or "excuses" or whatever by saying "well, these kids have special problems at the end of their meds" or "it's hard to deal with these kids 24/7". While TRUE, certainly, it doesn't negate the fact that Boy TWO had no patience left. He was drained of patience. His energy had been drained from him and he could stand no more. No matter WHY, he had NO MORE COPING SKILLS left to deal with Pete, Jr at that particular time.

I think Daddy Pete knows this. I think Daddy Pete will be a very good SM because he knows this. However, that said, I think we all need to understand that it's not JUST ADD/ADHD kids who need understanding. Those they annoy, bug, hit, punch, bite, break things of, etc need our understanding as well.

If YOU have trouble and get "tired" of dealing with your ADD/ADHD kid at home 24/7/365 and you love your child unconditionally, and wouldn't give them up for the world, can you imagine how frustrating this is for another CHILD without fully formed anger management skills of their own and absolutely no vested interest in your child? (or their teachers, Scoutmasters, Sunday School Superintendents....for that matter).

I work with BD kids all day. It's so draining. I do it because I want them to be productive members of society one day. Not all of them will achieve it, but for those who do, it's a wonderful thing. Just don't forget those "receivers" of their poor choices who must deal with this ADD/ADHD behavior and have no skills to do so.

Good job, Daddy Pete, for taking action with your son so quickly. I'm sure you'll be working with him on his annoying behavior so this never happens again, but I also hope you work with the other boys in coping skills as well.

I agree that finding your way is hard sometimes.

I also was going to suggest Tiger leader as many have done. Your experience would be wonderful there. Not to mention that I feel that anytime you can find a leader without a boy involved is a good thing for objectivity.

I would also like to toss out "Advancement Coordinator" into the list of possiblities. The reason being that I found it to be the best use of my organizational skills, my computer skills, and my cumulative experience. I am also a pack/troop trainer for advancement as well. I often get called on to do individual meetings for troops/packs that have new leaders to explain the paperwork, the intent, the rules, and all that right away. It is a fairly easy job, and I meet and greet well, so that is no problem.

Good luck.

Before I begin, let me say that I work with Behavior Disablity children. I know there are "poorly behaved" children and those with serious problems.

That said, the school will probably not give you any information on this student since all info is on a "need to know basis" and you are not a participant in the school system, so you simply don't need to know from their perspective.

I think the best way to handle this boy is to frankly believe he is classified as Behavior Disabliity which basically means he can't function in regular society which seems very evident. If he was dignosed means nothing in your case, I don't think.

Then, believing he is "terminally" going to be a behavior problem, you will develop strategies for EACH and EVERY meeting/outing/event/camp with this problem in mind. These steps can include things like: You're going to the museum. YOu know straight away that mom won't/can't control him and he WILL act out, defy, climb, deface property, and most likely shout, swear, kick, scream and all those bad behaviors you hate. You have to plan ahead on what to do with this child including telling his mother what your plan is and that you WILL be sticking to it. Make it a safety issue if you have to. You MUST do the best you can NOT to get loud, angry, or whatever. Before the museum, say one week prior, you sit this family down and explain that you cannot take him if he will not behave as this museum has RULES that MUST be followed. Give them a chance to stay home. Then, tell them that WHEN he acts out, you WILL XXX. Example: Mrs. Lackofcontrol, should you choose to attend this activity, WHEN your son acts out, I will issue his ONE warning. I shall say "Bruiser, I need you to get off that wall immediately and get back into the group." Then, tell Mrs. Lackofcontrol, that should Bruiser CHOOSE not to obey AND should SHE not CHOOSE to get him off the wall and back into line, then you have no CHOICE, but to ask them to leave XXX activity.

For these families, they need to understand that the CHOICES they've made to misbehave, not parent their child or whatever is the problem. "I can't control my kid" is not an excuse. You don't get a pass on parenting because it is hard. Take the focus OFF the boy and put it onto the behaviors of BOTH him and his parents. These are poor choices and should be treated as such.

Also, for children such as these (and their parents), the act of getting you to respond to him is what he wants. This requires that you NOT allow your puppet strings to be pulled. Keeping your voice as deadpan as possible especially in meetings, just say "Bruiser, I NEED you to sit down right here now." Then, go directly back to what you were saying. At NO TIME should you stop your meeting for Bruiser for more time than it takes to say that one thing. Of course, he won't sit down. They rarely do. Then, 30 seconds later, repeat the request, again in a deadpan voice. After the second time, you merely turn to Bruiser and state in a very calm, mostly disintersted manner and body language, "Bruiser, I can see that you have CHOSEN to misbehave which cannot work in this meeting. Since you have CHOSEN to ignore my request, I must ask you to leave the meeting. I have a responsibility to these other 11 children and you are choosing to take their meeting away from them. I simply cannot allow that, so you must go home. Come back next week, and make better choices." Then, just turn back to the other children and continue the meeting. If mom won't leave, then I suggest you call off the entire meeting for one night until you can call a committee meeting and get it ironed out. I would also state such. I would say something like, well, I am sorry parents, but as Bruiser has made it impossible for us to have a meeting, we'll have to pack it in for today. I will consult the Pack Committee and let you know by telephone what next week's plans will be. As of now, let's plan on next week unless I call you. Then, close the meeting and everyone goes home. Mom HAS to leave, then.

As far as any hitting or any "violence" at all it should be automatic grounds for dismissal from the meeting/activity. Zero tolerance. Not optional......etc. These kids need to know that they are safe from this.

In my classroom, we have rules for Respect and Safety which are not optional. We do not disrespect each other and we do not make an unsafe environment PERIOD. No warnings, no talking about it, it's a CHOICE and you made a poor one when you hit XX child.

Also, remember to stress to the ohter boys that hitting him back is equally bad. Bad language is not tolerated either. We have classroom appropriate language and you should have meeting appropriate language. I would even go so far as to draw up a set of written rules (no more than 5 rules, though) and set aside a meeting with your committee after the Leaders' meeting to state what you WILL do. Don't ask them about it. Tell them that you MUST have control or they can sit with Bruiser each and every meeting for the entire meeting. The 5 rules could be:

1. Respect (including for yourself/others/property/actions/words, etc---the word respect should be all you need after the explanation)

2. Safety (no hitting/throwing things/weapons(including objects used as weapons, like pencils)/untied shoestrings/etc---again the word safety should be all you need after this)

3. Be responsible (including bringing your book/pencil/wearing uniform/and even taking responsibility for your own actions and CHOICES---again word should be enough after explanation)

4. Procedures (HOW you do things like check books, pass out and take up materials, pay dues, etc.---word should be enough again)

5. Expectations (WHAT you expect the boys and parents to act like, what you expect them to DO/NOT DO, how much work they should be doing, when you want confirmations turned in for outings, etc---again, word is sufficient)

All these should come with consequences for breaking the rules as well. Such as hitting will result in leaving the meeting immediately. Send them to the Cubmaster. He can baby sit them till their parents come, or their parents can immediatley take them home.

This is very simple. The initial explanation will take an entire meeting and EACH boy and parent should not only be present, but should be given a handout with one copy for them to take home and one to sign and give to you that they AGREE with these things.

It is NOT any other parent's responsibility to parent this boy, and if he should hurt another child while in their custody, that can have liabilities all on their own.

Be proactive, remember YOU are in charge, Bruiser isn't. Sometimes, you just have to choose which kids to lose. IF you are already losing scouts, is it worth keeping Bruiser and his ineffective mother? I agree this child NEEDS scouting, but he's not getting it. He's getting his way which is not the same thing. I think his mom doesn't want to deal with him at home and she brings him to you to deal with, but that is entirely a personal opinion based on private experience.

I did have a boy years ago in my Bear den who was similar to Bruiser. We laid down the law, and he became a very good scout. Doesn't always happen. Even if it doesn't, it's not your fault.

Good luck. I know how frustrating this is because I deal with these types of kids all the time. You do them no favors if you allow this behavior and sometimes the only way you can fix it is through confrontation and strict rules.

You have my deepest sympathy, but I think you can control it if you are very proactive and deterrmined to take back your meetings for the other 11 boys. Just remember, they deserve a well run meeting with our without Bruiser and his mom.

I agree with John on so many levels as to age. My son joined a Crew at age 14 (in fact on his 14th birthday), but he got overwhelmed early on with the requirements. He did finish his bronze award, but has no desire to do more at this time which is ok by me.

I do feel we're bringing this down to boys who are too young in so many respects. I teach kids and I know they are just not capable of some of the intense organization and thought process of Boy Scouting at such a young age. I also have very few young kids who can read at the level required in the manual and MB books. May be a local problem, but they do have trouble with it, so it is hard for them.

If they were a bit older, I do believe it would help, but then they get into the school activities and all, so many leave anyway, so not sure they'd continue, but I've seen so many over the years drop out because they are just to young to handle it so it's just not fun.

Just my experience.

My friend who is the new advancement coordinator for cubs has been a scout, but it's been a long time for him. He's met the Webelos and feels they have those who seem ready and are in fifth grade crossing over this spring, but he was talking with one of the fellow Tiger parents whose older boy is a first year Webelo. He feels that since dad read somewhere that his boy could cross over "early", that he's been rather insisting he do so. Not sure what the motivation there is, since he's not even friends with the second years. He's fairly certain this boy is not ready mentally or emotionally as he still has to have an adult help him with everything and doesn't work in groups well either. He feels the next year will be a good time to wean him off the "parent help" track into Boy Scouts, but the dad is adamant that his boy move on up. He didn't tell me all this at first, but I'm not surprised once he told me which family it is. This family wants their boys to always be "first" at everything even in the water fountain line.

That said, I agree with Beavah in many ways. I think that we're so into the "fast track" we forget that just because a kid may be able to finish activity pins in a year (and it's mostly my experience that it's with "parent assistance", but it's just personal experience), it doesn't mean that this child is ready to successfully interact in an environment that is full of high school boys. Example: We have one boy who came up at the appointed time, AoL and all that, went into second class fairly quickly, but made the entire troop miserable with his whining, tattling on older boys for "picking on him" or "playing too rough" or whatever. This group always has an ASM present during games and activities to watch the boys and these men said that it was just the difference in high schoolers playing football or whatever and this little fella trying to play with them instead of them picking on him. To make a long story short, the game time had to be cut short nearly every meeting due to arguments that always happened whenever this kid was around. He simply wasn't mature enough to interact successfully with the troop as a whole. That year, though, we also had four other boys crossed over with this child who blended just fine. It was a matter of maturity. The immature scout actually quit just prior to his First Class BOR, and I feel certain it was just because he wasn't ready to interact on that level. The committee had many meetings over this issue and even during his BOR for up to second class, they tried to discuss his feelings on this, but it just didn't work out for him. (he nor his parents could handle the patrol method either, just in case you're wondering)

I wish these "fast track" people would do as Beavah says and use the entire time in Webelos ot create a fun, interactive program that includes preparedness for the next level at Crossover instead of just earning pins as quickly as humanly possible which I've seen over and over. I tell all my kids I work with that advancement is probably more about the journey than the result and they need to take time, just as on a hike, to enjoy the atmosphere in addition to getting to the destination. In our reward based society, though, it usually resonates on deaf ears.

I know there are those who have not had this experience, and things went well, but I can only speak from what I've seen in my little corner of the universe. I do really love being able to get other people's opinions, though. Helps with that tunnel vision. :-)

I would double check the rules for withdrawl of money from this endowment fund if you feel it's being overused. My personal donations are submitted DIRECTLY to Troop XXXX or Crew XXXX. I also submit a camporship in my father's name each year to a first year scout in a local troop "just because".

Our local area has not sold it's camps, but they've tried. I think there has been a lot of financial trouble with many partnerships including the United Way. I never donate to the United Way either for the reason that I want my money used as I want it used, not the way corporate America feels it should be used.

As for endowments specifically, I think they are fine as a whole, but I do feel that unless they are extremely specific, the potential exists for misuse, so I personally avoid donating to them. My few measly dollars do much more good in specific ways and I see a definate return for my dollar (especially the camporship).

I would double check the rules for withdrawl of money from this endowment fund if you feel it's being overused. My personal donations are submitted DIRECTLY to Troop XXXX or Crew XXXX. I also submit a camporship in my father's name each year to a first year scout in a local troop "just because".

Our local area has not sold it's camps, but they've tried. I think there has been a lot of financial trouble with many partnerships including the United Way. I never donate to the United Way either for the reason that I want my money used as I want it used, not the way corporate America feels it should be used.

As for endowments specifically, I think they are fine as a whole, but I do feel that unless they are extremely specific, the potential exists for misuse, so I personally avoid donating to them. My few measly dollars do much more good in specific ways and I see a definate return for my dollar (especially the camporship).

We actually had that trouble for the past two years with one of the groups I work with. Here's how they solved it and everyone loved it:

One troop was going out of state on a "big trip". Concern for the young pups was high. Second troop in area was going to traditional BSA summer camp. Older boys bored. Young pups excited.

Troop ONE opened their trip up to Troop TWOs older boys and adult leaders. Troop TWO, in exchange, took the young pups and adults to summer camp with them.

Everyone got something and got the long term camping experience, but it had to be a shared effort. They've done this for two years due to the activities involved, but I'm told each will do traditional summer camp this year, and have planned to attend the same week so they can be together as the boys are becoming really close.

Just a thought,

Mollie.

I'm posting this for a friend.

Is it ever possible for a 4th grader who may be 10 to cross over to Boy Scouts?

If I am understanding the requirements correctly, AoL MUST be 10 yrs 6months?

Also, do the requirements mean 5th grade as the year requirement with the age requirement as AND 10, or 11, or AoL (assuming it's 10 1/2)? I also interpret this as being possible for a 4th grade 1st year Webelo to be barely 10 and upon gaining an AoL (which frankly sounds like the proverbial Eagle Factory of BSA, IMHO), can join a troop. Having little experience in Cubs for around 8 years or more, I'm not sure how to explain this to my friend.

He's a new Advancement Coordinator for a Cub Pack, and he's trying to understand it all. His son's a Tiger, so he's really uninformed.

Thanks,

Mollie

Do I read it correctly that a boy who has completed his Arrow of Light can immediately join Boy Scouts their age and school grade notwithstanding? Doesn't this mean that some much younger boys will be able to cross over?

I'm just curious with this because I was under the impression that the school grade and their age were the more deciding factors. As Webelos is a year-plus some program, I felt that it seemed to be a real rush job to try to get into BSA that soon.

Anyone with experience in this? Thoughts on how it seems to work?

Thanks.

While I believe I now have my answer thanks to several PMs, I do want to respond to Scout just because he brings up a great point that after re-reading my initial post I agree sounded odd.

That said, I have two boys, both seniors, that I'm told joined BSA two years ago just to put a membership in BSA on their college resume. I've never met these two boys and according to the scribes records, they both attended two meetings last spring and have never been since. I feel these two could logically be inactive. However, I have another boy who works every meeting night and has not been able to work out an arrangement for that night off. He goes on campouts when possible, meetings when possible (although it was less than 1/4 of this past year), and he works with MB counselors to gain badges. While this child is not sitting in the meeting room, he's doing what he can. I don't feel he should be inactive because he's still doing "stuff" just not meetings. Those seem simple to me. But then, I have one boy who has after school practices all year for various sports. I'm told all his practices are over by 6pm and meetings start at 7 only one block away. He does no MBs that are not at camp (and it's been two years since he went to summer camp). He's not advanced in a year and hasn't held a POR for that time either that I can see. He's attended no meetings since September with the exception of the Christmas meeting which was basically a food fest. SM conferences have not helped nor have phone calls. SO, is this boy "active" or "inactive" as far as the National office paperwork is concerned?

This is the Cliff's notes version of the above examples, but that's why I'd put a question mark by the third example. I would have said maybe inactive, but he came to the Christmas food fest, so he still has come recently. It's just not black and white always. It can get very subjective.

As I said, I feel I have my answer thanks to the several PMs I received from forum members. I appreciate everyone that replied. I've never been asked for this info in a recharter before, so I thought I'd best check it out. Again, thanks for the help, and have a good new year.

Mollie

I went back to last year's paperwork, and this particular paper was not among the recharter things I was sent for last year on any of the groups I work with. Seemed like this year on the forum was full of posts here on "active" and how you can't define active by percentages and such comments which I will not restate here since it has little bearing, and so I was surprised to see this on the directions.

I think what I will do is, list those attending meetings/advancing/etc as active, and question mark the rest until I get clarification from Council. Only problem was that I have four recharters due by the end of January and only one day in my work schedule to make the 2 hour trip to the council office to submit them. I want as much correct as possible. Normally, this is terribly easy for me, but this one thing tripped me up a little.

Does this sound reasonable to those that know what council does with this distinction?

Thanks for helping out.

Mollie

In our area, there was a Venture Crew that recently folded also due to those older recruits leaving for college, but that said, there were problems prior to that.

Example: While I believe that it SHOULD be a higher level of performance than Boy Scouts, I feel that a Standard First Aid course is a bit extreme. A healthcare provider type certification is a great mid-range program. Why do I feel this way? It's mainly due to the fact that these kids in our area were WAY to involved in other things to devote 16+ weeks of intensive training to the Standard First Aid course, so just didn't do it.

Example 2: I also feel that there is a great deal of requirements that would work well where I used to live in a smaller city, but here in seriously rural America, I cannot find the places listed to go visit much less get there and back in a meeting. I feel that it is mostly designed for urban/inner city/small town places and has little to do with rural America. This continuously frustrated these kids.

Now, I know there can be some level of variation with the Crew Advisor, but it shouldn't have to be on every little thing. I think this was a great idea in the inception, and I still believe in the program, but in reality it doesn't take into account many of the unique problems such as rural America and the length of time with a real conception of how busy most high schoolers and college students are these days balancing work/practices/and school work.

I think that here where I live, that Venturing is not viewed as doable by the kids. It's been hard for some of our youth, but several did earn their bronze award finally. Then, they were on their way to the next one and left for college, so that ended it altogether as they decided not to re-register.

I feel that this program cannot be as popular as it should be unless some revisions are made just simply because the nature of the age span and the lack of resources in rural areas make it nearly impossible to perform well unless it's on a college campus in a city atmosphere.

This is just my experience, and I know there are those out there who will disagree, but before you do, just remember that I'm just one of many experiences with this program and this is what I viewed with my own eyes here in Rural, USA.

I've been trying not to beat the dead horse to death on active scouts and advancement, however, I just got something odd from my local council office in my recharter packet and wanted clarification if possible from everyone (and YES, I'm also writing my local council on this)......

I got an instruction paper called Unit Renewal Application Instruction that seems quite official. It appears to have a revision number in the lower left hand corner. In the Youth instruction section it says to mark on the computer printout whether the registered youth are A=Active or I=Inactive.

Now, if "active" for advancement is a synonym for "registered", then why are they asking for a distinction of A being Active and I being inactive for REGISTERED scouters?

Seems to me that here, at least, it appears that there IS some difference being made between Active and Inactive REGISTERED scouters.

I do not wish to have a heated re-discussion on the advancement issue specifically, I would like to know what else this could possibly mean. Thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks and Happy New Year to all,

MollieD

I have been reading several articles in many places lately about the fitness of today's youth for other reasons than Scouting. However, this post reminds me of a situation coming up for the second time within one of the groups I work with. Previously, we had a young man who was overweight as was his entire family. The father was actually having many health problems--serious ones--due to his weight. The son was having trouble making this exercise part of his life even for 30 days because of his at home lifestyle which was mostly couch potato. He wouldn't "do" the requriement. Well, prior to the father being diagnosed with weight induced health problems, the family was asking us to "just pass him on that requirement" as he was "disabled" by his weight. He was actually "disabled" by his unwillingness to work on this for 30 days. This troop didn't pass him until his father after diagnosis worked out with son for 30 days (and beyond) and after that, they both were glad they'd not passed son without the requirement being done. NOW, same troop/different family is having a crossed over Webelo coming from another pack who is in the same boat...inactive, unwilling, etc, but this time, the parents have been in a Pack whose motto is "move 'em all along together whether they did the requirements or not" and have expressed the will expect the same treatment in this Troop. As advancement coordinator, I've advised this group to have a new parent meeting with all the leadership involved and stress the following of the guidelines and all that, and not passing this child on ANYTHING he's not shown he can perform as per the guidelines in the BSA literature.

While this particular troop is behind doing things the BSA way, I look back to the overweight father and son who worked together to see that they were a healthier family. What good are we doing today's youth by not showing them HOW TO WORK for something, be it fitness or a MB? I think the main thing is that while it's a physical impossibility for a 200 pound 6th grader to do 10 pull ups in most cases, it IS possible for them to go from 100% impossible to 35% impossible. I think that is where the point is.....WORK FOR a goal, PLAN FOR a goal, REACH A goal. If we just pass 'em on everything, what have we gained? In my opinion, it's absolutely nothing. Just my two cents, MollieD

My son uses Rocky brand hiking boots. They have been in the creek, hiking, climbing, cave crawling, all that jazz, but honestly, they look a little worn, but when you look inside them, they look new. He's had them for two years at least, but he'll never go with another brand. He adores them. THey are available at most outfitters. We got ours at the factory outlet in Ohio. For our money, they've been a godsend.