mmhardy

FSB did a great job during the event. At no time was anyone in danger. The base complied with the local governments evacuation orders "for visitors and tourists" and our unit was out of the Keys 36 hours before Fay made landfall. IMHO G2SS was followed to the letter.

Regardless, our adventure was cut short. The patch was a nice tokenlooks pretty cool.

Your right wingnut....scout speak extreme! Those who went through it are in a unique clique.

We got ours a few weeks ago. The FSB staff did a grat job on the design. I guess the total run was only 675 patches.

BTW.. the examples you give are not applicative because the schools has already established itself as an Educational Institution. In my neck of the woods most secular educational institutions have already dumped Packs and Troops from its charter support.

BW. This has nothing to do with Scouting. This has to do with what how our government implements the law. Its interpretation does not care if its a Scouting unit or a group of FFA, PTO or CYO. If your not prepared with being at least somewhat astute with the IRS expects., then your on your own. Will an audit happen to your specific unit. Most likely not. However lady luck shines on those most prepared.

The law is not logical, it is what it is.

BW with all due respect I think your wrong.

I'm staring at an IRS website that lists youth groups as a qualified organization. Being a unit within a church is more protected in that its considered integrated auxiliary. Since a unit Charter is granted to an incorporated 503© organization it too falls under jurisdiction as a qualified organization.

Regardless, having bylaws is a good protective measure. I think the BSA is silent on the topic because its not in the business of offering legal or tax advice. I think having bylaws falls under the motto of "Be Prepared"

While the BSA may not require any bylaws the IRS may. Bylaws exhibit how an organization operates. If a unit operation is ever called to question it represents the first line of on Organizational Test. Specifically:

"To be organized exclusively for a charitable purpose, the organization must be a corporation (or unincorporated association), community chest, fund, or foundation. A charitable trust is a fund or foundation and will qualify. However, an individual will not qualify. The organizing documents must limit the organization's purposes to exempt purposes set forth in section 501©(3) and must not expressly empower it to engage, other than as an insubstantial part of its activities, in activities that are not in furtherance of one or more of those purposes. This requirement may be met if the purposes stated in the organizing documents are limited in some way by reference to section 501©(3)."

See

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=175419,00.html

To me this kinda settles the question..you are required to have bylaws as a 503© organization.

You all have made very good points. Thanks for all of your input.

Just to get a glimpse of what our CoC draft contains it has provisions such as ....all Scouts must "check in" their cell phones and ipods or stow them...show attention and respect by refaining from sidebar chatter or doing homework while at the meeting...stay in the building and not wonder out into the parking lot and into cars...remember all these nuggets were drafted by 12-15 yo boys.

Not sure if the Oath and Law are capable of identifing these specific beefs that the SPL and the ASPL had when they were drafted.

Great feedback....thanks and keep it coming.

Yes there is a story behind it. However what I want feedback on is the proposed "fix". I did a Google search and there are plently of examples of units with Codes of Conduct as part of their bylaws. Is there any unit out there with a CoC in place who wishes to chime in on its development and use?

This may be an old topic but...We have had some drama in our unit which has resulted in the Troop Committee demanding that the SM refresh and institute a Code of Conduct. The old CoC was developed by the Scouts four years ago. The idea was that the newly elected SM Corps take this project on at their next PLC. Instead the old CoC was edited by the SM and ASMs and introduced in a special joint parent/scout meeting. Cutting to the chase; this has resulted in several families feeling that the unit is straying from the Patrol Method and thinking of leaving along with some very vocal dissent by the older Scouts.

The whole issue has gotten way out of proportion and could result in a unit schism. Here are my discussion points. 1) Does your unit have a CoC? 2) If you do, how was it developed? 3) What incidents caused your unit to develop a CoC? 4) Does a CoC help or hinder how a SM deals with the boys.

eagle1977 I hope your last comment was tongue in cheek.

I guess what really bothers me is that we as Americans are satisfied with supplying Honda, Toyota, Nissan etc, with our labor then turning around and buying that same product to us, then taking the pure profit back to Japan. (Or reinvest here and double down on the profit in the future) We are quickly allowing ourselves to become colonial zed. Think about it.

Someone please indicate to me a factory that Americans own in Japan for a durable good. An article in the Washington Post is grim. The levels of manufacturing jobs, (not just the Big 3) are quickly approaching 1950 levels. I will only accept the hypothesis of Darwinian consequences if our government also acted in our best interest. That $25 billon the government put out was a panic move and will not be available until last next year. It may be too little too late.

Consider this point in the Post article The European Union has put more than $15 billion into building this aircraft company from the ground up. Whatever you may think about the recent U.S. Air Force decision to buy tankers from Airbus rather than Boeing, one thing is clear: Through its subsidies, the E.U. has managed to build a highly competitive aircraft industry. South Korea has put more than $12 billion into its semiconductor industry to similar effect, severely harming the U.S. semiconductor manufacturing base.

In my mind saving the Big 3 is acting for our nations best interest. Can we do better? You Bet. If the UAW eliminated just is job bank that alone could make a difference. We can also match the tax policies of Brazil, France and Australia with tax credits for exports. Keeping our currency low would also help.

Last point. The manufactures lobbied for either help with the CAF mandate or an extension. They were only looking for the same deal that Germany and Japan offer their own automakers. Regardless, it didnt work and the Big 3 were saddled with an unfunded mandate. Last I looked BMW, Porsche, and Mercedes have been paying millions of dollars in fines for missing CAF.

My friends, make no mistake that Japan considers economic competition a modern form of warfare. When the Japanese government wanted their domestic automakers to lower tailpipe emissions the Diet included support and funding as part of the mandate. Did our govenment do the same with the CAFE standards. Nope.

The cooperation between the government, industry and the financial institutions in Japan is well documented. Japan views R&D as critical to long term success and supported R&D since the 1980s. Those government investments seem to be paying off as the Big 3 are now on their knees begging for mercy.

So much for the "Darwinian consequences" of a free market. That concept is a myth in a global economy. As long as our government and business bang heads the rest of the world will pass us by. Are we going to continue to to operate this way?

BTW...here is the source for the total direct employment by the OEM and their Tier I&II suppliers.

http://trade.gov/static/auto_reports_jobloss.pdf

When I say 1 in six jobs is related to the auto industry I'm talking about a term called a "multiplier effect". More information is available here:

http://www.allbusiness.com/north-america/united-states-michigan-metro-areas-detroit/3987431-1.html

If you look at my profile you'll see that I'm from Michigan. I'll tell you that I also work for one of the "Big 3". Its my lunch hour and I've reviewed the comments of the past three days....how sad and ignorant so many of you are. As I write this more then 5,000 of my fellow employees are walking out the door never to return. That's 5,000 families affected by this, today..and friends this is just the start.

If you have family or friends working in any of the 7,700 companies that supply the Big 3 they too will take a hit. Email me your state I'll tell you the amount in millions that the smallest of the big three bought in it. Chances are its in the 10's of millions.

In all its estimated that 1 in 6 workers may be affected by a failure of the US automotive sector. That's 23,200,000 workers! This does not count the barber shops, flower shops, and countless other small businesses that will be dragged down.

Our favorite local columnist and author is Mitch Albom. He wrote Tuesdays with Morrie and The Five People You Meet in Heaven. Last Sunday he wrote a piece that hit it out of the park. I think he does a better job then I ever could to convey what Detroit is thinking...YIS

OK. It's a fantasy. But if I had five minutes in front of Congress last week, here's what I would've said:

Good morning. First of all, before you ask, I flew commercial. Northwest Airlines. Had a bag of peanuts for breakfast. Of course, that's Northwest, which just merged with Delta, a merger you, our government, approved -- and one that, inevitably, will lead to big bonuses for their executives and higher costs for us. You seem to be OK with that kind of business.

Which makes me wonder why you're so against our kind of business? The kind we do in Detroit. The kind that gets your fingernails dirty. The kind where people use hammers and drills, not keystrokes. The kind where you get paid for making something, not moving money around a board and skimming a percentage.

You've already given hundreds of billions to banking and finance companies -- and hardly demanded anything. Yet you balk at the very idea of giving $25 billion to the Detroit Three. Heck, you shoveled that exact amount to Citigroup -- $25 billion -- just weeks ago, and that place is about to crumble anyhow.

Does the word "hypocrisy" ring a bell?

Protecting the home turf?

Sen. Richard Shelby. Yes. You. From Alabama. You've been awfully vocal. You called the Detroit Three's leaders "failures." You said loans to them would be "wasted money." You said they should go bankrupt and "let the market work."

Why weren't you equally vocal when your state handed out hundreds of millions in tax breaks to Mercedes-Benz, Hyundai, Honda and others to open plants there? Why not "let the market work"? Or is it better for Alabama if the Detroit Three fold so that the foreign companies -- in your state -- can produce more?

Way to think of the nation first, senator.

And you, Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona. You told reporters: "There's no reason to throw money at a problem that's not going to get solved."

That's funny, coming from such an avid supporter of the Iraq war. You've been gung ho on that for years. So how could you just sit there when, according to the New York Times, an Iraqi former chief investigator told Congress that $13 billion in U.S. reconstruction funds "had been lost to fraud, embezzlement, theft and waste" by the Iraqi government?

That's 13 billion, senator. More than half of what the auto industry is asking for. Thirteen billion? Gone? Wasted?

Where was your "throwing money at a problem that's not going to get solved" speech then?

Watching over the bankers?

And the rest of you lawmakers. The ones who insist the auto companies show you a plan before you help them. You've already handed over $150 billion of our tax money to AIG. How come you never demanded a plan from it? How come when AIG blew through its first $85 billion, you quickly gave it more? The car companies may be losing money, but they can explain it: They're paying workers too much and selling cars for too little.

AIG lost hundred of billions in credit default swaps -- which no one can explain and which make nothing, produce nothing, employ no one and are essentially bets on failure.

And you don't demand a paragraph from it?

Look. Nobody is saying the auto business is healthy. Its unions need to adjust more. Its models and dealerships need to shrink. Its top executives have to downsize their own importance.

But this is a business that has been around for more than a century. And some of its problems are because of that, because people get used to certain wages, manufacturers get used to certain business models. It's easy to point to foreign carmakers with tax breaks, no union costs and a cleaner slate -- not to mention help from their home countries -- and say "be more like them."

But if you let us die, you let our national spine collapse. America can't be a country of lawyers and financial analysts. We have to manufacture. We need that infrastructure. We need those jobs. We need that security. Have you forgotten who built equipment during the world wars?

Besides, let's be honest. When it comes to blowing budgets, being grossly inefficient and wallowing in debt, who's better than Congress?

So who are you to lecture anyone on how to run a business?

Ask fair questions. Demand accountability. But knock it off with the holier-than-thou crap, OK? You got us into this mess with greed, a bad Fed policy and too little regulation. Don't kick our tires to make yourselves look better.

First off youre to be commended for showing concern. That tells me youre looking out after your charges and are concerned. As a Dad of 3 boys and also married to an elementary school principle I get exposure to these types of stories everyday.

Boys do this kind of thing. In the 1960s my 1st and 2nd grade friends would draw pictures of WWII planes shooting Nazis. The red crayons would be ground down to the nubs with the depictions of gore. Within our own Catholic school, Sister Andrew would display the most gruesome depictions of Christs suffering imaginable. I tell ya, to a 10 year old it was engaging stuff.

You need the boy to feel safe with you. If you start freaking, out all you will do is alienate the boy and his parents and accomplished nothing. Quiet authoritative and nurturing comments by you hinting that such comments are kinda creepy may be all thats needed to get the message across. The next time an inappropriate comment is made, ask questions; Why do you want to shoot out windows?, Are you a good shot?, Have you ever killed anything? Drawing out answers may lead to a general ethics and morals discussion that all the boys could benefit from. Or lead to discussions with the parents that not many like to hear. Good Luck

Our Sea Exploring Adventure on the Jolly Rover II was cut short by Tropical Storm Fay. Seabase policy is to order all of its crews in if Monroe County issues an evacuation order for visitors.

Our ship was 14 miles west off Key West anchored at Boca Grande Key. We had just had an excellent day of snorkeling and were just getting into the rhythm of the ways of ship life when we were ordered to port.

We were met at the docks in Key West by FSB staff. They had brought down vans, trailers and one bus. Our crew raided our ships stores upon leaving clearing out all the cold-cuts, several loafs of bread and treats for the drive back to the main seabase facility in Islamorada. We went back up US 1 with another ship crew, sharing the food, playing cards and watching the first rain bands of Fay come in.

Our crew spent about an hour at the base. We got our patches and checked out. At this point our crew split up. The main group traveled to the mainland to catch flights out. Others, including my sons and me are staying with family in the Keys riding out the storm.

A huge disappointment but everyone is safe. The FSB response was excellent and they bent over backwards in a tough situation.

Nahhh...threats are for amateurs and rookies. I've yet to see any top performer use those tactics to get a milestone accomplished. What I did was a work around.

The real root cause of the problem at CR with this issue has yet to be identified. Is it people, process or volume?

Update: We did not get the permit via mail this week. I had to escalate within our home council and they had it faxed into them within two days. I finalized our camp reservations with the South Florida Council for our day before/after seabase. SFC is very understanding of the CR issue and worked with us. Myrna is a gem and great to work with.

This paper chase with the Tour Permits has to be expensive for BSA to deal with. An online system is really indicated here! Maybe CR can fund it by reduction in head count!

For years our family only had one individual with a tatto. My grandfather. He was a real character. A MD, surgeon, actually a flight surgeon with the 8th Army Air Corps. He got the bit of body art in England about 1942. He came back and ran a practice in Michigan until the late 60's. When I saw it as a kid it was faded and didn't know what it was.

He told me some storys but I feel that he saw much worse. It used to be a "tat was reserved to those who served"...not so much any more.

Our proximity to Canada affords us with many opportunities to see what a true coed Scouting organizaton would look like. I have no problem with with any gender as long as they meet the critria of the job. That's the real world! I expect our boys to treat our lady staff members with the same respect has the AARP set.

I stand by my original premise. If its some physical endurance test your unit is looking for then Philmont is OK, Boundry is even better. But I truly think that Scouting needs to respect "Mother Ocean" and its importance to the overall health to this planet and our well being. The more young men exposed to such an adventure then the more will want to preserve its legacy.

BTW our unit will achieve the Triple Crown for four of our youth this summer.

Im kind of disappointed in the short sighted view that some of the respondents have that Seabase sailing is basically a vacation True you dont deal with bear bags or sleep with your head in the dirt but it offers challenges and experiences that can be only found at a few places in this planet.

The Keys 152 mile coral reef system is the United States only living tropical reef. Giving our youth the experience to explore and grow to appreciate its beauty is the only way we can hope to pass this on to future generations.

Sailing is the only activity where you are at one with the environment. You must account for weather, tides, the ability of your crew and your boat. Misjudge any of those points and you may have a very bad day. Likewise you can also have the time of your life.

Having sailed for over twenty years I would say being Scouty doesnt cut it. You must have Scout skills as a base then learn the skills of weather, navigation, and seamanship. Seabase offers a taste of those skills and a good captain will act to pass those along.

Actually I "social engineered" my way to the person at CR who has our orginal copy of our permit. They were nice, and assured me that a copy would be in my hand this next week. I'm confident that this will come through. God help them if it does not...I have direct numbers at CR and cell phones too!

Bob White, God Bless you. It may be a mole hill to you but to our unit it's $33,600 of hard invested cash that has went into this trip. At this point the the whole effort should not hinge in a 8 1/2 x 14 sheet of paper. CR has a real problem and it has real $$ behind it.

My troop is going to Seabase on August 14th. We submitted our National Tour Permit to Council April 7th and they sent it in to CENTRAL REGION the same week. Thats 120 days proir to our adventure!

I look in the mail everyday.

Its the only open item in our planning.

Maybe for the sake of your son's life experience, and enriched scouting career, that you ask him if he would consider looking at other troops.

We like to think of units as a McDonald's. All should be the same. However experience tells us all that that is simply not the case.

My view is that troop membership is a two way street.