mds3d

Scouts is not about teaching boys to be men in the way that Man=Male gender of a certain age.

It is about teaching boys to be REAL MEN. Not real outdoorsy men, just Men.

This is about teaching maturity and responsibility. It is about teaching values embodied by the Oath and Law. "A Scout is..." should be the same as "A Man is..." The problem that scouts addresses it that too many Males reach physical and social maturity without reaching mental and spiritual maturity.

Can a woman teach a boy some of these values? Absolutely. Can she model these values? Yes. Can she model these values in a way that it completely reproducible by the boy? No.

The biggest example that flows outside of scouts is how a woman is to be treated. A female role model simply cannot show this. She can show how a woman treats a woman, or how a person treats another person, but not how a man treats a woman. No amount of feminism will make the fact there is to be a certain exchange between the sexes. How a man views a woman will never be the same as how a man views another man. If that bothers you, get over it, you can't change it.

There are all kinds of things that just relate better from someone of the same gender. If boys got enough good male example outside of scouts, it wouldn't really matter. However, that has almost never been the case (and probably never will be). So we need men in scouts to help share those values to the boys in only a way another man can.

Its really not about skills, but scouts never has really been about skills. Its about values and character all wrapped up in the fun of Scoutcraft.

The founder's bar is earned IF your name is on the original charter (the New-Unit application), or you join before the first-recharting date, AND the New-unit charter has been accepted by the council.

That means if your unit is 4 months old, and the New-Unit application has been completely processed by council, you are allowed to wear the Founder bar.

Just as a side note that may help explain the situation. The Buddhism award in scouting is administered by a sect of Buddhism that acknowledges a supreme being (a creator). Not all sects of Buddhism believe in a god of any kind. Some are quite essentially atheist.

This may explain some of where they might be coming from.

There are so many things wrong here.

First, a good thing. Someone is really volunteering to be a den leader! In my experience this is one of the hardest positions to get people to step up to doing. The idea of turning this person down makes me shudder.

Now for the first wrong thing. The Cubmaster is a Den Leader??? This is short and simple, dual registration. This is not a law of exclusion issue. The regs say you cant (right there on the registration form) so you cant. This needs to be corrected immediately. If this hadn't been the case, this situation might not have happened. The CC (absolutely his job) needs to tell your CM/DL that he has to pick one position and allow the other to be filled by someone else. In the worst case scenario, the CM chooses to stay CM, the new dad takes his old den, and the dens stay together (although too large).

Secondly. These dens are already on the upper limit of being too big. When bear (and then Webelos) dens get to large they dont function well. The dens should split up. It also sounds like there is already a great idea of how to divide them up. Also, like evmori showed, it is absolutely the right and responsibility of the Committee Chair if this is to happen or not (particularly since he is the only uninvolved party)

In general District Scouters are only scouters that have their primary registration in a district. This would be Members of the District committee, the District Commissioner, ADC's and Unit commissioners, and Chartered Organization Reps.

I do have a couple of concerns with this particular policy. Is this the policy for nomination of an award or of membership to the district committee. If the first, it makes sense. If the second, this is not the way members to a district committee are supposed to be selected. They are supposed to be recruited by the District Committee Chair.

Also, Annual meeting???? Does your district committee only meet as a whole once a year, or is this talking about a specific meeting?

I am actually not sure of a guideline, and I know I have heard it both ways. However, in my opinion, the first method is definitely the best. We were always taught to have pride in the den. It was really easy to do that when we were Den 7 and no one else was (yes, I remember my den number). However, I can see that would be considerably harder when there were as many as 3 other dens with the same number.

If you are trying to make a decision, I would go with the first. If your pack already runs with the second, you might bring the change up, but it is probably not worth pushing.

Here is the way this should work, and this has been described before...

1. CO tells troop they no longer want to sponsor a Troop.

2. Troop asks CO what is to be done with Equipment and Funds.

3. With or without their stuff, all of the leadership moves themselves to another CO and forms a "new" troop.

---This last one has several options depending on #2. CO says - You can't have your stuff. Fine, get new stuff. CO says you can have the stuff but not the money, or just all of it. CO may require they approve the new CO before transfering.

If the CO is willing to help you find a new CO that they are willing to let you go to with your number, stuff, and money, that is all well and good. However, this is not the way it always works out. Often a CO releases a troop under not so good circumstances, or the CO is releasing the troop because they no longer care anything about that program.

This is why I tell troops that do not have an intimate relationship with their CO (as some troops do), then the troop should have as few assets as possible at the time of recharter. Try not to have very much money at one time, and try to have as little stuff as possible.

David: One question, What is the answer?

They cannot stay at that CO, and you say that they cannot find a new CO? So what other alternatives are there that are actually good for the scouts?

Is there a standard not being followed, or is there just no standard at all?

Honestly, I think that there should be some items that are truly restricted. However, they should (if they already can't) be able to look you (or your son) up on ScoutNet and see that they did in fact earn this award or rank.

However, all of this is probably pretty low on National's list of things to do.

I think it must really be up to the Scout Shop managers what "restricted" really means. I was able to buy all of my patches (even the "restricted") ones without any proof of anything. This included my Eagle Knot. I even asked if I had to have my card to buy a Eagle Medal (they said no, BTW).

Maybe my scout shop is doing it wrong, I don't know. However, I do think that the Rank Card is supposed to be acceptable paperwork

Lisabob, I want to make a couple of comments on your "days." I did all of these things as a scout and my count was much lower.

weekly troop meeting (4)- Yes, absolutely

PLC (5) - Should be on the same night as Weekly meeting (usually before) so (4)

monthly camp-out, Friday-Sunday (8) Granted (7)

service project (9) - Every month, really? (7)

fund raiser (10) - See above (7)

merit badge meeting with a counselor (11) Granted, (8)

Eagle COH or extra patrol meeting or special district event or whatever (12) - Anywhere close to every month? What special district event does your son go to? (8)

Separate planning meeting with SM (13) - Should be on the same night as PLC or the week after (8)

Report to the monthly committee meeting (14) Does the Committee meet on a different night than the troop? (8)

Calls and contact with the PLs and others, outside of meetings (15) A couple of minutes at a time - E-mail between scouts is perfectly acceptable (8)

District Roundtables (some invite senior scouts) (16) Scout shouldnt be at these (8)

OA (17) Most are on the same night as Roundtable so (9)

Venture Patrol/Jambo Troop/Philmont Crew, etc. (18 or 19 or 20) Venture patrol is seperate from patrol listed above? so 10 or 11)

So where you come in at up to 20, I get up to 10 or 11. It looks like something could be run more efficiently for your son.

BTW - I am an Eagle, was SPL more than once, was OA, and in the Band, played two sports (captain of one), in Student Government, Did Drama club one year, involved at church, and a straight A student. So it is not as impossible as some would make it seem.

Since no one has posted a link to the proposed requirements, I am going to assume that no one actually knows them. If that is the case, no one can speak to how this award will fit into the Venturing program. To that note lets take an *Analogy* of Boy Scouts. It has been suggested here that the Outdoors are a pivotal part of Venturing. Whether or not that is (or should be) true, I think we all can agree on how important the outdoors are to Boy Scouts. That being said, there are MANY Merit Badges that involve Math and Science. Many of them also have an innate connection to the outdoors. To that extent it can be proven that the outdoors and "Math and Science" are not exclusive.

Lets take a few minutes to see how a Science oriented crew could spend time in the outdoors.

-They could take a trip to Sea Base. While learning to sail, they could take some time to learn and study about the wonderful marine life in the area (biology). They could also apply Math to the complex modern, and classic methods of water navigation. (This one is even High Adventure) The same could be said for Boundary Waters.

-They could plan a conservation project at a local park or preservation. In the process they could learn about how Biology and Environmental Science are used to help protect the species native to any area.

-They could backpack a part of the Appalachian trail and while on the way collect water samples from some of the more remote water sources to help any one of the many studies being done by Universities all along the Trail. They could learn about how their samples were used to help study and protect the Trail and the Mountains it runs through. (This activity could be done at any number of places across the country.)

I could go on, but I think you get the point. Anyone who thinks that Nerds do not belong in Scouts is an idiot, and the idea that the Outdoors and Science are anything close to inherently separate is just ignorant.

I really have only one thing to say. As an Eagle scout who was a (not always respectful) pistol of a scout, I have one piece of advice about this situation.

LEAVE!

Don't have your son apologise. If you are satiisfied at a punishment that *YOU* deal out and enforce, then that is all you need to do. There is NO WAY you can fix this situation from the inside. "Advisors" of any sort other than where they belong (Unit Commissioners) are a very BAD thing.

If you insist on staying and dealing with this do these things, and do not allow anything else.

1. REQUIRE the COR or IH to be at the meeting. Make sure they get your side of the story FIRST.

2. CALL the Unit Commissioner for your unit. (If you don't have one, call the District Commissioner.) (If the "Advisor" is a Commissioner, also Invite the District Scout Exectutive to this meeting.)

3. Do not allow your son into this meeting until you are satisfied with the results of the discussion.

4. Do not allow a 60 or 90 day suspension. That is an AWFUL punishment. If the punishment cannot be carried out in the span of a week from the meeting, do not allow it.

If this were just a situation of punishment, then I would not suggest all of this. However, you have discribed a BROKEN leadership to me.

IMO- Your scout was already punished for "disrespecting" an adult. He was sent home from a campout.

Please continue to update us.

One last thing, you must do everything you can to make sure that this situation does not ruin scouting for your son.

For anyone who has done a patch blanket, did you match the thread to each individual badge (so the back looks funny) or did you use all red thread? I can't decide which will look better.

I know some don't like this easy way out, but I just used the stuff on my uniform and it was the easiest process. I will let everyone know how it performs over the next few months.

Here is what brought me to this. I got a Centennial uniform (canvas). I really like the way it fits and feels. I had two problems. The pocket flap has changed size and my OA flap doesn't fit quite the same. I was unable to find a way to sew it on without the thread being obvious (you can't hide the thread in the border anymore). Second, the position patch was just annoying me. With the Badge magic, both problems were fixed easily.

This has "Troll Alert" written all over it, but I am going to reply anyway.

"It is proven that atheists are more intelligent than theists..."

Again, please provide support. I am going to brag for a minute. I am finishing a doctoral degree. I am a published researcher. I graduated with honors from undergraduate. My IQ on the Stanford-Benet test is 152 (99th percentile). I am a Christian.

"Almost every good scientist is an atheist"

Please provide proof. Do not claim to think scientifically without being prepared to provide proof.

"Why don't you let children decide for their own?"

With only a few exceptions, you will find that all Christians can describe a moment when they decided for themselves. The fact that so many teenagers leave their religion (many of those will return) is a testament to the fact that at some point they do make a decision.

"And no, I would tech them about christianity and other religions and let them decide."

Why would anyone teach their children about things that they don't believe in? Do you teach your children about Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc.. in an unbiased manner? Of course you don't! You couldn't if you tried. Your life, if even not your words, is teaching your opinion already!

Regardless, the BSA is a religious organization. Any who would try and change that should get out. A belief in God is a fundamental part of what Scouting entails! Whether or not atheists are allowed to become members is another story. I really could care less as long as they understand that they are joining a theist organization.

I think the punishment is appropriate. It expresses disapproval and deals out consequenses without really being corporal punishment. It is also a little more than a slap on the wrist.

When dealing with this kind of situation, everyone needs to remember a couple of things.

Are the scouts sorry?

Do they understand what they did was unacceptable?

Do they understand why it was unacceptable?

Does the punishment teach them anything?

You CANNOT use corporal punishment. You SHOULD NOT use anything that resembles corporal punishment. Work (service, dish washing, etc.) is not necessarily corporal punishment, but it may be seen by some parents as such.

Most importantly: The problem scouts may be the ones that need scouting the most.

Also, If you as a leader have the appropriate relationship with the scout, mere expression of disapproval is sometimes enough.

I would use Badge Magic. It seems to work the best for placing patches on that pocket. It also comes off quite nicely if you do it right. There is a video on the badge magic website about how to remove the patch. I did it just like the video said and you can't even tell there was ever a patch there.

Athiestic parents are a tricky thing in Scouting. You are a strong influence in his life, but your beliefs are not going to necessarily always match his.

There are requirements in his future boy scout career that mention religion and faith, but I would encourage you to take this time now to explore your own beliefs. Does your life have a moral yardstick, how do you measure right and wrong? Many athiests in scouting take their philosphical beliefs, call it Humanism, and attest it as their "religion." Teach these standards to your son and require all his leaders to handle his beliefs as they would someone who is buddist. Buddism is almost (and sometimes completely) atheist anyway.

Regardless, let him enjoy scouts until that point is reached.

le Voyageur - "An apparent problem I see first up is where these different types of units co mingle at summer camps. They would have to have seperate weeks to prevent intercine warfare."

I really think that both being at camp would be fine. I'm not sure what kind of "warfare" you refer to, certainly nothing that would be scout-like"

Scoutfish - They didn't ask about your sexual orientation, but you agreed to live by the oath and law. That agreement includes (though not on the acutal application) an agreement to live by the Oath and Law as interpreted by the BSA which currently includes that "Morally Straight" and Homosexuality cannot coexist. You also signed the declaration of religious principle. Think of it like "I understand the Terms and Conditions" checkboxes. You are expected to read and abide by the terms.

I would like to offer my opinion about how to "fix" the problem of "discrimination" in the BSA as related to Atheist and Homosexual leaders.

First, a few assumptions...

1. The objections of the LDS church is based on the potential for homosexual leaders in positions that are both "superior" in relation to their unit and out of their total control. (ex. District scouters and above)

2. Agnosticism is equated with Atheism in that the general definition of "Agnostic" is someone who thinks that a higher power cannot be known/proven and has no relation to our lives. Those who believe in a "higher power" but are unsure of its specific nature are classified as "Deists" whether they self-identify that way or not.

3. NO SCOUT should ever be turned away because of expression of religious belief or sexual orientation.

Now my solution.

National recognizes two classification of units- "Inclusive Leadership" and "Restricted Leadership"

Inclusive units theoretically allow homosexuals and atheists to be unit leaders.

Restricted units do not.

Districts will follow current guidelines unless all units in that district identify as "inclusive." Councils will follow current guidelines unless all districts have become "inclusive." (Continue on up the chain).

At no time are Chartered Organizations required to give an explaination for denying an Adult application or removing a volunteer from a position in the unit.

Additionally: At no time will awards (knots or otherwise) be awarded based on athiestic beliefs (no "atheism" religious knot) or sexual orientation (No official "scouting for all" or similar knot). The intention of this is that at district/council/etc. functions it will be impossible to identify those belonging to "inclusive" units by their uniform. Nothing about the program should differentiate these two types of units.

So what does everyone think?

First, I really never saw any one tell me what they would do other than "work with him."

- I really do have a problem with this approach. One, it is so incredibly vague it really doesn't say anything. Remember, he already is working with a mental health professional. What else are you going to do?

Second, Some made comments about their "irrational fears." One person mentioned almost drowning and fearing water, the other mentioned a fear of flying after the Challenger. Neither of these are irrational. They both have reasons associated with the fear even if they were not considered "good" reasons.

Third, Someone mentioned it being too strange to be true. Think about it. What else do you have to do as a tenderfoot scout with no apparent hope of ever progressing in rank. Granted many of his merit badges were some of the easy ones, but he never had to work on any rank requirements, never got to be in the OA, he never worried about many things that most scouts worry about.

Finally, This scout is now 22 and a Scouter. He is finally able to get into water up to his shoulders, but still has a panic attack if the water is as deep as his ears. He does actually swim. He built a lap lane into the pool at his house that is only 5 feet deep and is currently trying to find out if anything will prevent him from earning the mile swim award. He usually doesn't tell people about this little issue anymore, and usually no one even notices.

I really have just one question.

What do you do with a young boy who has a "severe irrational fear" of water that goes over his knees? Lets even say that he has a clinically diagnosed phobia and is working with a psychiatrist to overcome his fear.

I really want to know what you as a scouter would say to this boy.

BTW I really do know a boy like this. After 3 years of working with the doctor, they requested alternative requirements. He was told that he could not be accomadated "simply because he was a little scared." The boy would later age out of scouting a Tenderfoot scout with more than 60 merit badges.

My original lodge actually had 4 seperate but almost identical lodge flaps. Each had a different border, Ordeal=white, Brotherhood=red, Vigil Honor=Gold, Trader=black. At my ordeal it was explained to me that the purpose of the colors was to identify those who were new and those who had been honored even when the sash was impractical or inappropriate. Personally, I like the different borders. I think that if we complain about the different borders and any inequality that implies, then we ought also to equalize the sashes as well. The different color borders are a much more subtle differentiation than the sashes are.