mds3d

8 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

After some local meetings and conversations with local professionals, I am curious what are the actual BSA priorities now?

It seems that apparently our main focus and purpose is YPT, it currently defines the movement; then maybe training, it is most important; then making the Bechtel Summit property an essential asset (hey let's move everything there) so it can be protected in a bankruptcy; then remember it's all about being an Eagle Scout, or maybe the new background checks, if you don't toe the line, see ya; and just shut up and pay the new fee as Scouting is a great value; then let's make sure we add girls (which is fine); and remember No Bullying; don't forget that Family camping is the best thing ever; we need to add kindergartners; and there is STEM; and etc etc etc

Seems that National and Local Councils have moved away from focusing on Outdoor Programs and letting youth learn and grow.  You remember, patrols and youth led activities.  Successful Units continue that focus and honestly much of this does not impact us directly, but long-term it will be harder to bring in new youth.

Families will look at all of the red tape, and after sitting through the 2 hour YPT training and go...yeah...maybe not.  

I think you are looking in the wrong place for traditional scouting values.  They are still there in the aims and methods. 

Of course, YPT is national's highest priority.  The failure of this in the past is the thing most jeopardizing the future of the national organization.  You can't blame the national staff of the present for that (you should blame the perverts of the past though). The background check forms are another step in that process.  I want national to do everything they need to do to protect the existence of the program for future generations.  As long as YPT  (and the legacy of the past) is a problem then it will have to be a function of National.  Abuse scandles are bad press, scouts getting hurt is bad press. Bad press is bad for recruitment. We have half the number of units in our district than we did when I was a scout (not counting LDS). 

The Eagle has been a priority for years.  It was emphasized 20 years ago when I was a scout.  As long as it is viewed as the end goal and a feather on a young person's cap for college and job applications it will be a priority.  I don't see national or councils being the push for this though.  I haven't been to Summit, but I don't have a problem with it.  National is using it (like philmont and sea base) to provide things that local councils simply cannot.  I see no wrong in this as long as it is handled. 

All of the fee discussion has come from panicked scouters and parents.  National should have handled it better, but until the number actually comes out we have no way of knowing how bad it is.  

The outdoor program is supposed to come from the troop. Except for high adventure, it isn't national's job. Except for summer camp, it really isn't the local council's job.  If you see shifting priorities here then it is a Unit problem.    My units still spend a ton of time outside with boys learning great outdoor skills.  

Hey @The Latin Scot !

I am glad you are looking into being a UC.  I think it is one of the best jobs in scouting for those of us who aren't needed in our own kids units.  You have gotten some great advice so far.  What I have seen of unit assignments is that there is a piece of advice passed through the commissioner corps that UC's should not be assigned to their "own" unit.  Different DC's seem to take this differently.  Sometimes it means not your son's troop, sometimes it means not the troop you grew up in.  I am of the opinion that it helps to be a little separated but not too much.  Try to look at yourself as a District scouter (enjoy those silver epaulets).  I have always had 2 or 3 units.  Sometimes I hike or camp with different ones.  At district and council events, the corps has started camping together, complete with our a big commissioner flag and over the top camp food.  

Here we go:

From the form in 2018

Quote

To the extent permitted by applicable law, I hereby consent to and authorize Boy Scouts of America and/or its subsidiaries, affiliates, other related entities, successors, and/or assigns (the “Company”), to procure consumer report(s), which may include criminal background check(s) and/or investigative consumer report(s) (as defined by applicable California law), on my background from a consumer reporting agency (“CRA”) or from an investigative consumer reporting agency (“ICRA”), as described in the Background Check Disclosure, the Additional Disclosures, and the California State Law Disclosures (Non-Credit) (all of which I have received separately from the Company). I have reviewed and understand the information, statements, and notices in the Background Check Disclosure, the Additional Disclosures, and the California State Law Disclosures (Non-Credit), as well as this Background Check Authorization. My authorization remains valid throughout my volunteer relationship with the Company, such that, to the extent permitted by applicable law, I agree Company can procure additional consumer report(s), which may include criminal background check(s), during my volunteer relationship without providing additional disclosures or obtaining additional authorizations. Except as otherwise prohibited by applicable law, I consent to and authorize the Company to share this information with Company’s current or prospective clients, customers, others with a need to know, and/or their agents for business reasons (e.g., to place me in certain positions, work sites, etc.).

From 2016:

Quote

In order to safeguard the youth in our program, the Boy Scouts of America will procure consumer reports on you in connection with your application, and the Boy Scouts of America may procure additional consumer reports at any time in order to evaluate your continued suitability for participation. The Boy Scouts of America has contracted with First Advantage, a consumer reporting agency, to provide the consumer reports. First Advantage may be contacted by mail at First Advantage, 1000 Alderman Drive, Alpharetta, GA 30005 or by telephone at 800-845-6004. The consumer reports may contain information bearing on your character, general reputation, personal characteristics, and mode of living. The types of information that may be obtained include but are not limited to Social Security number verification, sex offender registry checks, criminal records checks, inmate records searches, and court records checks. The information contained in these consumer reports may be obtained by First Advantage from public record sources. The consumer reports will not include credit record checks or motor vehicle record checks. The nature and scope of the consumer reports are described above. Nonetheless, you are entitled to request a complete and accurate disclosure of the nature and scope of such reports by submitting a written request to First Advantage at the address listed above. Additional notices for applicants in California, New York, Minnesota, and Oklahoma are provided.

APPLICANT’S ACKNOWLEDGMENT AND AUTHORIZATION

I have carefully read this notice and authorization form and I hereby authorize the Boy Scouts of America and First Advantage to procure a consumer report, which as described above will include information relating to my criminal history as received from reporting agencies. I understand that this information will be used to determine my eligibility in the Boy Scouts of America. I also understand that additional consumer reports may be procured at any time. I understand that if the Boy Scouts of America chooses not to accept my application or to revoke my membership based on information contained in a consumer report, I will receive a summary of my rights under the Fair Credit Reporting Act and contact information for the reporting agency, First Advantage.

(2014 was the same)

2012-

Quote

NOTICE TO APPLICANT REGARDING BACKGROUND CHECK In order to safeguard the youth in our program, the Boy Scouts of America will procure consumer reports on you in connection with your application to serve as a volunteer, and the Boy Scouts of America may procure additional consumer reports at any time during your service as a volunteer in order to evaluate your continued suitability for volunteer service.  The Boy Scouts of America has contracted with LexisNexis, a consumer reporting agency, to provide the consumer reports.  LexisNexis may be contacted by mail at LexisNexis, 1000 Alderman Drive, Alpharetta, GA 30005 or by telephone at 800-845-6004. The consumer reports may contain information bearing on your character, general reputation, personal characteristics, and mode of living. The types of information that may be obtained include but are not limited to Social Security number verification, sex offender registry checks, criminal records checks, inmate records searches, and court records checks. The information contained in these consumer reports may be obtained by LexisNexis from public record sources. The consumer reports will not include credit record checks or motor vehicle record checks. The nature and scope of the consumer reports are described above. Nonetheless, you are entitled to request a complete and accurate disclosure of the nature and scope of such reports by submitting a written request to LexisNexis at the address listed above. Additional notices for applicants in California, New York, Minnesota, and Oklahoma are provided. APPLICANT’S ACKNOWLEDGMENT AND AUTHORIZATION I have carefully read this notice and authorization form and I hereby authorize the Boy Scouts of America and LexisNexis to procure a consumer report, which as described above will include information relating to my criminal history as received from reporting agencies. I understand that this information will be used to determine my eligibility for a volunteer position with the Boy Scouts of America.  I also understand that as long as I remain a volunteer, additional consumer reports may be procured at any time. I understand that if the Boy Scouts of America chooses not to accept my application or to revoke my membership based on information contained in a consumer report, I will receive a summary of my rights under the Fair Credit Reporting Act and contact information for the reporting agency, LexisNexis.

2009- 

Quote

NOTICE TO APPLICANT REGARDING BACKGROUND CHECK In order to safeguard the youth in our care, the Boy Scouts of America will procure consumer reports on you in connection with your application to serve as a volunteer, and the Boy Scouts of America may procure additional consumer reports at any time during your service as a volunteer in order to evaluate your continued suitability for volunteer service. The Boy Scouts of America has contracted with ChoicePoint, a consumer reporting agency, to provide the consumer reports. ChoicePoint may be contacted by mail at ChoicePoint, 1000 Alderman Drive, Alpharetta, GA 30005 or by telephone at 800-845-6004. The consumer reports may contain information bearing on your character, general reputation, personal characteristics, and mode of living. The types of information that may be obtained include but are not limited to Social Security number verification, sex offender registry checks, criminal records checks, inmate records searches, and court records checks. The information contained in these consumer reports may be obtained by ChoicePoint from public record sources. The consumer reports will not include credit record checks or motor vehicle record checks. The nature and scope of the consumer reports are described above. Nonetheless, you are entitled to request a complete and accurate disclosure of the nature and scope of such reports by submitting a written request to ChoicePoint at the address listed above. Additional notices for applicants in California, New York, Minnesota, and Oklahoma are provided. APPLICANT’S ACKNOWLEDGMENT AND AUTHORIZATION I have carefully read this notice and authorization form and I hereby authorize the Boy Scouts of America and ChoicePoint to procure a consumer report, which as described above will include information relating to my criminal history as received from reporting agencies. I understand that this information will be used to determine my eligibility for a volunteer position with the Boy Scouts of America. I also understand that as long as I remain a volunteer, additional consumer reports may be procured at any time. I understand that if the Boy Scouts of America chooses not to accept my application or to revoke my membership based on information contained in a consumer report, I will receive a summary of my rights under the Fair Credit Reporting Act and contact information for the reporting agency, ChoicePoint.

Javascript seems to have prevented the internet archive from catching further back than that but this is 10 years worth.  

2 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

True but the BSA is demanding a new and broader agreement than before so prudent folks will reevaluate the risk reward structure in light of the BSAs current political, financial, and legal environment.

Is it though?  As i look at the various versions of the adult application online it doesn't seem like this is actually asking for much more than the application did.  I wonder if this is more about catching all those adults who have been continuously registered for longer than the current practice. Seems like if you applied recently, they already have this authorization. 

12 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Remove this sentence

"Except as otherwise prohibited by applicable law, I consent to and authorize the Company to share this information with Company’s current or prospective clients, customers, others with a need to know, and/or their agents for business reasons (e.g., to place me in certain positions, work sites, etc.). "

Legally, the BSA can perform only the specific personal background checks related to YP which I consent. If I do not consent , no check is done and I am no longer a member. But if I do consent, my information (CRA, etc.) is only to be shared with me.  If others want that information, they can submit a request to me stating who they are and reason. All Council and my unit need to know is National's membership decision: approved or not.

I understand the BSA may revoke or approve  my  membership based on the information in those background checks. Either way, the BSA needs to understand I want to fact check that information (same as OK, MN, and NY folk),  after all I paid for this screening with my registration fee.  

I guess what I am getting at is that removing that sentence doesn't give them any reason to share their results with you.  From my understanding, you have a right to a copy of a credit check but not necessarily a criminal background check.  So, without that clause you still probably aren't getting to review what they found.  What you seem to want is a clause that would require them to provide you a copy of whatever they find.  

What others are saying is that "approved or not" is a disclosure covered by this clause, i.e. this clause is necessary for them to provide a yes or no answer.  If they answer no they are disclosing that there was something on a background check that is excluding you.  It doesn't matter that they aren't disclosing what that is specifically.  This is all a function of the structure of the BSA.  If the councils and units were part of the legal entity that is the BSA National office then it wouldn't be an issue, but then lots of things would be different.  

15 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Good , remove that clause.  This would give the accused and his/her attorneys time to review the CRA, any other documents , and respond.  Over the years, we have had a few good people rejected for reasons unknown and  no appeal. If Council knew, they were not saying. 

Second point, understood.  If I reject their conditions, I am free to serve elsewhere.

Well at least there  is no "do not disparage" clause ,  well not in writing anyway.  Where would I be then?  

Why would removing that clause give anyone time to review the background check?  The BSA isn't under any obligation to reveal what they find as far as I am aware.  They would be more likely to just say "no" and move on.  Once I had a volunteer rejected by national with no answer.  Everyone around him was shocked but he didn't really seem as surprised as I thought.  A couple years later I found out what probably showed up and I wasn't surprised national responded as they did.  

Background checks are there to identify people we think are good but have something hidden in their past.  These background checks are part of our YPT process.  Why would we be less serious about them than other things.  

15 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Do you really trust National? I have been told a lot of things that National would not do over the years, only to see them change policy and do it. And National does not have a history of being Trustworthy. Look at the "Prohibited Activities FAQ" found here:  https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/prohibited-activities-faqs/ . One Questions is

...

I don't really trust anyone more than I have to.  However, I see no reason for them to start doing credit checks.  I don't know what is behind the dodgeball thing. My understanding is that that clause is there for compliance with FCRA. 

51 minutes ago, PACAN said:

@mds3dRemember you signed the Eagle Workbook saying you had read the entire workbook which includes following the above paragraph 9.0.2.14 

I am pretty sure the workbook I signed did not have that section.  I feel like 2002 (when I started my project) was pretty different. 

54 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I'd encourage you to look at it from the other side.  

The BSA has worked very hard to establish itself as an organization that takes youth protection very seriously at all times.  That means we have to embrace youth protection rules even when it's inconvenient.  Yes, I grant that having to provide two deep registered adult leadership for Eagle projects is difficult, but protecting youth is more important.  

 I understand that youth protection is extremely important.  I just think that service does not have to scouting activity.  The eagle project should be no different.  If it is a scouting activity (troop supported and sanctioned) then it should follow all the rules, but my project would have been impossible with this rule. 

I was mistaken.  Doesn't make it not a stupid rule.  I would hate to have had to plan my project around as many people as I did plus getting two, over 21, registered adults there the entire time as well.  

What is dumb would be that my project was completed over about 8 days of work.  Who decides which of those days were activities and which weren't? Only 2 had other scouts there.  Man, now I feel like an old man shaking my fist at a cloud...

On 10/16/2019 at 6:00 AM, RememberSchiff said:

I would like a copy of my CRA report  and any other information the BSA uses to determine my membership qualification. From the form, only MN or OK residents are provided this courtesy due to their state laws. 

I do NOT consent to sharing this information with any unnamed  "clients, customers," who have no stated justification regarding a "need to know".

https://www.hoac-bsa.org/Data/Sites/1/media/disclosure-forms/additional-disclosures-and-background-check-authorization-not-california-hoac.pdf

Since they are separate legal entities "clients" probably includes your council and troop. Without that clause then the most they could do would be to respond with "nope, not that guy." 

On 10/16/2019 at 5:23 PM, Mrjeff said:

I spoke with my attorney and he told me that this document is too broad and open ended.  I am ok with criminal background checks but this appears to be an agreement allowing the BSA and their employees to look into every aspect and area of my private life (my attorney agrees).  I plan to make several pen changes, and have that form notarized before turning it in. I also dont like the idea of them sharing information.  I'm a retired Marine and law enforcement officer and held a final top secret security clearance so clearly I have nothing to hide. But I dont think that the BSA should have access to all of my private information.

What private information are you worried about? They have stated they aren't doing credit checks. 

I think people should be ready for these things to just be rejected if they have pen changes on them (if anyone actually reviews them). You guys should see the authorizations I signed for every healthcare job I have had. 

3 hours ago, swilliams said:

I'll have to ask our Committee Chair.  A scout came to the last committee meeting to give us his Eagle proposal, and the CC brought it up then.  It seemed to me like it was a new requirement, but I couldn't say for sure.  We had always gone with two adults on Eagle projects, one with YPT,  and one was always a parent.

 

 

Quickly since it is unrelated. I would say that Eagle projects are "scout adjacent" but not exactly scout activities.  Your helpers don't have to be scouts or scouters and there are no requirements that any of your helpers are involved.  An eagle project could theoretically be completed with no work from a scout other than the Eagle candidate himself.  That fact to me says this isn't a troop activity and doesn't need two over 21.  (2 adults for YPT is still a good idea probably but I am not sure you would actually have to require them to be YPT trained).  

Of course, like many things there seems to be conflicting information. 

She didn't really annoy me before.  She does now.  This "board of review" wasn't very scout like in it's conduction.  She also seems to not understand that her age won't be a factor in 2020.  I really think she just wants to be "first."

I really hope the BSA makes a giant deal of the first class of female eagles and intentionally doesn't include her in any of it.  

I think that there are many better places to wear that parent pin.  When you are in uniform everyone knows that you are supportive of your daughter, the Scout. What about when you aren't in uniform? How do you express it then? 

My dad was an ASM the entire time I was a scout. He later was SM for many years after I was gone.  I never felt like he didn't support me because he didn't wear a pin on his uniform.  I was super proud when he had his pin on at church or work though. 

Lastly, I would ask that you think about your role when you are in uniform.  When you are in uniform you are not being dad, you are being a Scouter.  I strongly believe that it would serve your daughter best if she was one of your scouts while you were in uniform.  It is a struggle that all scouter dads (and moms) deal with.

Proper uniforming has a purpose, and these discussions turn into the same thing pretty much every time, but I don't think we should pick and choose which uniform guidelines we follow and which ones we ignore. 

On 10/2/2019 at 7:10 AM, Pale Horse said:

I'm in favor of a statute of limitations to bring suit. What happened to those kids is a terrible shame; but after a certain point in time, what sense does it make to punish those that had nothing to do with it?

After 30 years, are any of those responsible for the actions or knowledge of the concealment still around?  You're asking today's families to pay for the transgressions that happened before many of my Scouts' parents were even born. We're 2 generations after-the-fact in some circumstances.

This is so much of how I feel in so many circumstances.  I am fine with extending the criminal statue of limitations as that punishes the abusers, but there is likely no one left at the BSA who had anything to do with the problem in most circumstances that seem to make the news.  There is no moral motivation for these suits. The people are gone, the policies have changed, the actual abusers aren't named - what motivation is left but money?

I worked with a troop in the past few years that I think had a good system for flags.  They did an excellent jobs maintaining patrols throughout the boys tenure (patrols didn't change much). They had forgone handmade flags and had the boys design a real flag.  They worked with a local print shop that made them 2x3 flags.  They boys did the sketches and provided design feedback with the company. They also raised the money for the flag. I think it usually took them 6 months or so to get it all done but they had some really cool flags that were flown all the time and taken on every trip.   It was cool to see them at camp with the flags up in each group of tents. 

3 hours ago, mrkstvns said:

This is not something I would stock in a first aid kit.  

I think the likelihood of scouts or scouters being opioid abusers is (thankfully) low, and the naloxone is best left to real emergency response personnel who are trained to recognize the symptoms and use.

Our troop's "first" aid kit is already overstocked. It's more like a well equipped hospital pharmacy than a first aid kit. Except that it's chock full of outdated things we never needed (and really never should have had).  But some adults just can't help but get carried away by the "be prepared" slogan.....oh my Gosh!  What if?  What if?  What if?

The only injectable I think has a place in any troop first aid kit might be an epi-pen *IF* a member of the unit is identified as having significant food allergies. About 2% of the population under age 18 do have food allergies, so the chance of that affecting a good size troop is not insignificant.

Youth with juvenile diabetes are a different matter --- they may require regular insulin injections, but they will carry their own insulin and they are trained to self-inject. 

Opioid overdoses?  No, that's not an "emergency" that we should be prepared to deal with in the backcountry, so for practical reasons, I say "ix-nay on the aloxone-nay".

Think about real risks, not every possible risk that could ever in a gazillion years possibly, maybe happen...

I tend to agree.  I might say that a camp or facility taking care of a large number of people might be justified in having one (especially one open to the public).

Full CPR (not hands only) is generally enough to take care of an overdose victim until EMS/Medical Personnel arrive.

On 9/23/2019 at 8:28 PM, SSScout said:

Now, let's not say no yet.   A HOA can be very interesting. Let's assume the Scout's home is in this association.  It is a "public" meeting, altho a limited public, I should think.  Things need to be decided, bills paid, problems solved, neighbors need to work together.... Might not be as large as a County Council meeting, but hey, this is what democracy is about.   HOA I would hope includes all the HO invited, not just the  (?) trustees or commissioners or what ever you might call the leadership.  

Ask the Scout about what he saw/heard.  How were things run, decided....   Did he notice any "tendencies"?  How did it compare with how his family makes decisions?  His Troop?   Does the PLC operate similarly?

My Scoutson attended the local neighboring Town Council Meeting.  Three Commissioners and a  dozen citizens.  I remember he reported some hearty back and forth, but civil discussion about a new by-pass being planned by the state. 

Next, the Scout might want to view some videos about the Nuremburg trials.....  

I think I would just be careful about HOA meetings.  Yes, some of them closely resemble public meetings.  Many of them are more like a corporate meeting and not very democratic. There is also the chance that they won't meet a quorum and thus will be entirely informational. 

3 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

part of the big deal is the authorization is open ended as long as you are a volunteer, and, it gives the BSA permission to share any info they gather.  Sam Houston has a link to the form at http://www.samhoustonbsa.org/national-recharter-update-2019-09-19.  If I sign this form in December, then leave the BSA, the odds that they'll quit running background checks on me and destroy the information they gather on me are largely indistinguishable from zero.

It looks to me that the form only provides authorization while you are still a member.  I wouldn't expect them to purge files because you left since you might come back.  They have to be able to share the info because Councils and Units aren't legally "The BSA" as far as this form is concerned.  

10 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Uh oh....  😬

This is pretty standard language.  I don't know that it is expected. 

I know this article is now 8 years old, but it is one of the dumbest things I have read in a while.  

Quote

Mary has one apple. You have zero apples. Mary says, “Hey, this apple is really good.” You think, How can I have an apple, too? By going outside, it’s easy! Simply go to the market—physically—and buy an apple. Result? You have an apple, too.

Yes, going to the store.  This is one of my favorite activities and truly encompasses all that "outside" as to offer. 

Sight and Hearing aren't perfect in everyone and not everyone experiences these senses in the same amazing way that the author implies. 

Quote

After going outside, the Louvre is but a plane ride away.

Yes, the Louvre... the cheapest round trip flight I can find from here to Paris is around $1100. That's isn't including all of the other expenses with that trip.  My VR setup cost way less than that...

I love the outside and I spend as much time there as I can, but this kind of snark isn't convincing anyone.  It is a great read for people who look at kids and their computers/phones/"vidya games" and scoff.  It is really annoying for people who enjoy those things or have various difficulties interacting with "outside."

1 hour ago, Saltface said:

And to know what to do when it kicks in. Most drug abusers aren't too happy when you ruin their fix.

The naloxone kits provided to lay personnel, is rarely a high enough dose for "full reversal" of the kind of dose that a drug addict would use. However, it is likely that first responders to an overdose will also need to be prepared to perform CPR, or at least administer rescue breaths.  Most of the time, the naloxone doesn't last as long as the effect of an opioid.

1 hour ago, yknot said:

No, the epi pen is for anaphylactic reactions. Naloxone is used to save people who have OD'd on an opioid substance. 

I don't think anyone was confused about the use of naloxone, but the question if this is part of an advanced first aid kit or not.

My two cents amounts to this is a decent addition to an camp/troop first aid kit.  If you aren't carrying something backpack/dufflebag sized, then you probably have other things that could use that space.  In most cases, appropriate CPR/Rescue breaths can suffice until more advanced help arrives. 

We used to do ours the week after elections and both sets of PLC members attended (incoming and outgoing).  The outgoing group served as advisors to their incoming counterparts (assuming every position changed).  That ensured that every group of PLC members participated in the conference in one way or the other. 

We also did a mini version on the other election date (both groups in the room) that served as a review and update of the plan.  

I think Learning for Life has always had a different set of rules.  It seems like the "non-military" part of it would also be different.  Several of our local schools lost their JROTC programs because they couldn't maintain 100 students enrolled and there were no accommodations for one unit serving more than one school. 

Here is the relevant page: https://www.exploring.org/law-government/

"Military careers" is right there. 

Ideally ILST is offered any time you have newly elected leaders that haven't already had it.  If the times are inconvenient, you might consider trying to shift the dates of elections to make it more feasible.   

I didn't see this post originally and missed the date.  I was all kinds of angry after reading what happened.  

I am glad your son found a scouting home he feels comfortable. 

Quote

4b. Demonstrate how to use a handheld GPS unit, GPS app on a smartphone, or other electronic navigation system. Use GPS to find your current location, a destination of your choice, and the route you will take to get there. Follow that route to arrive at your destination.

This is still the requirement in question, right?  This doesn't say anything about it having to be a destination to be in the woods.  I would say that there isn't anything in this requirement that would exclude the use of Google Maps, Waze, or other navigation apps.  It does also say "a destination of your choice" so this could be walking directions downtown or being the navigator on a road trip.  I feel like someone excluding city/road navigation would be adding requirements, but if you wanted to do this in the woods then you could use something like AllTrails.

"Other electronic navigation system" could technically use in car navigation.  I think these requirements were meant to be "navigate the old fashioned way (4a)" and "navigate how most people do today (4b)."  

I don't have time to listen, but this "research" isn't linked to in the show notes.  Does anyone who has listened have more information on this research?  I am having a hard time believing that an author of a book about how humans used to navigate is unbiased when interpreting research about GPS.