awanatech

11 hours ago, yknot said:

A 'scout is trustworthy' will not be an adequate legal defense when a scout arrives at a camp site with an inappropriate item and something unfortunate happens because a leader didn't check the bags. We're involved in a youth organization and as adults it's our job to keep them safe. No other youth organization would allow kids on an outing without checking bags. On school, church and sports outings I've been involved with, it's been done by adults as part of the routine while loading buses and cars and no kids are present. 

I have one son who just graduated high school and another going into 9th grade.  We have had many school (grade level), band & church outings over the years.  We have never had the adults open any luggage or pack to inspect for any contraband items.  I don't know of any times that there have been unannounced searches without the owner of the bag (at minimum the student) being present.  And even in those very limited situations where a bag has been searched, it was a limited scope to include the bags of a very small group.  In one case, 4 students were staying together in a room.  One student claimed that something was missing.  The bags of those 4 students were searched, with the students being present.  There was no room to room search of every bag of every student.  We have never done this in Scouting either.  As a Scoutmaster, I'm not searching bags without a very valid, specific reason.  The situation in the OP seems quite troubling to me.  As a parent, I would have a problem with adults arbitrarily searching bags like that also.  

In a Scouting context, there is no 4th amendment issue as BSA is a private organization.  However, with the schools, that could come into play as the adults leading the school sanctioned trips would be agents of the state at that point.  How do you articulate that you have probable cause to search each bag, of each student, just to make sure there is nothing in there that they aren't supposed to have?  

1 minute ago, awanatech said:

I've never had a Scout who got to the point of crying for hours, but it could easily have been my oldest son.  He is 18 now and earned his Eagle rank last fall.  He has dealt with severe social anxiety for many years.  He started Scouts as a Tiger Cub in 1st grade, so he has grown up in Scouts and camping.  However, his anxiety is one of the reasons that I got started as a leader 12 years ago, actually being the Committee Chair for 10 years and now 2 years as Scoutmaster.  My being there eased his anxiety to where he can function.  He learned a long time ago that I'm not there as dad, I'm there as Scout leader.  I didn't want to bring any dad/ son issues from home to Scouts, so I stayed out of their way to let the Scouts lead & function as a Patrol.  But by me being there, he was able to function and be a part of the Troop without having his anxiety/ breakdowns.  Is there any chance that you or his dad could be active, at least as another adult on the outings or to spend some time at camp?  I know there are several who will say to leave him and let him get past the anxiety on his own.  But having a son who can be paralyzed by his anxiety, I have become much more sympathetic to the youth who have very real issues. Many of these issues will not be overcome by just "sucking it up and dealing with it". However, there is certainly a time for some Scouts to just suck it up and get over it.  As the Scout leader, it isn't always easy to discern which Scouts need which level of response. 

As far as making him do things that trigger his anxiety, I will add that from the time he was young, we have been easing him into uncomfortable situations.  Things like making him start to order his own food at a restaurant.  This forced him to look at a menu and find what he wanted.  It forced him to speak clearly and loud enough for the cashier/ server to hear his order.  I would also let him answer questions about his order (i.e. do you need any sauces?).  There have been many things like this that I have pushed him into, some of which have been very hard for him.  But over the years, we look back and see that each step has moved him towards dealing with his anxieties. It's much easier to deal with that level of anxiety knowing someone who knows you is nearby. 

I say all of that to say that you know your Scout the best.  I hate for his anxiety to keep him from all that Scouting has to offer.  Scouting can offer him ways to face and deal with his anxiety.  Look for ways that you can help him to deal with it & support him, while maintaining some distance and give him room to excel and thrive, knowing that he isn't having to do it alone. It may mean that you or dad end up on Troop campouts.  There are certainly worse things than that. 

In rereading your post, has he given any reasons for his camp anxiety?  The woods do get very dark and, surprisingly noisy, at night.  Can he point to anything in particular that bothers him?  Is it primarily during the day? Or night?  

I've never had a Scout who got to the point of crying for hours, but it could easily have been my oldest son.  He is 18 now and earned his Eagle rank last fall.  He has dealt with severe social anxiety for many years.  He started Scouts as a Tiger Cub in 1st grade, so he has grown up in Scouts and camping.  However, his anxiety is one of the reasons that I got started as a leader 12 years ago, actually being the Committee Chair for 10 years and now 2 years as Scoutmaster.  My being there eased his anxiety to where he can function.  He learned a long time ago that I'm not there as dad, I'm there as Scout leader.  I didn't want to bring any dad/ son issues from home to Scouts, so I stayed out of their way to let the Scouts lead & function as a Patrol.  But by me being there, he was able to function and be a part of the Troop without having his anxiety/ breakdowns.  Is there any chance that you or his dad could be active, at least as another adult on the outings or to spend some time at camp?  I know there are several who will say to leave him and let him get past the anxiety on his own.  But having a son who can be paralyzed by his anxiety, I have become much more sympathetic to the youth who have very real issues. Many of these issues will not be overcome by just "sucking it up and dealing with it". However, there is certainly a time for some Scouts to just suck it up and get over it.  As the Scout leader, it isn't always easy to discern which Scouts need which level of response. 

As far as making him do things that trigger his anxiety, I will add that from the time he was young, we have been easing him into uncomfortable situations.  Things like making him start to order his own food at a restaurant.  This forced him to look at a menu and find what he wanted.  It forced him to speak clearly and loud enough for the cashier/ server to hear his order.  I would also let him answer questions about his order (i.e. do you need any sauces?).  There have been many things like this that I have pushed him into, some of which have been very hard for him.  But over the years, we look back and see that each step has moved him towards dealing with his anxieties. It's much easier to deal with that level of anxiety knowing someone who knows you is nearby. 

I say all of that to say that you know your Scout the best.  I hate for his anxiety to keep him from all that Scouting has to offer.  Scouting can offer him ways to face and deal with his anxiety.  Look for ways that you can help him to deal with it & support him, while maintaining some distance and give him room to excel and thrive, knowing that he isn't having to do it alone. It may mean that you or dad end up on Troop campouts.  There are certainly worse things than that. 

On 4/8/2019 at 11:37 AM, mrkstvns said:

Hmmmm.

You might think that's a "positive" outcome, but I'm very troubled that any adult is prowling through the medical forms, reading info about everyone in the troop. That is precisely the reason that health care providers are obligated to safeguard health info under HIPAA regulations --- because we, as a society, WANT to have the right to our health information staying "personal".

What you are doing argues strongly in FAVOR of extending HIPAA protections to organizations like BSA, because they clearly cannot be trusted to keep personal information "personal".

I certainly don't know the ideal way to handle personal health information, but I know it's not having you read everybody's health background.  It might be to adopt something like the sealed envelope approach that John-in-KC described. It can certainly be done better than today's practice of having binders of forms sitting around, readable by anyone with an inkling to snoop and gossip.

The adults in my units have always known how I handle their private information.  They trust me with their children, they also trust me with their information. I have never had an adult with any concerns or objections as to how I handle any of the paperwork, whether applications or med forms.  I have had several who have expressed appreciation that I am aware of issues that may arise as a result of medical conditions that either my adults or Scouts have.  There has never been a question as to how I handle their information from anyone in my units, only random strangers on the internet.  While I am not a professional healthcare provider, my wife is and I am very aware of HIPAA and how it works.  I know that I am not bound by HIPAA, but I still treat the information with the privacy that it deserves.  I am the one responsible for my unit & I am the one who will be the first responder when something happens that affects one of my Scouts or adults.  In the example that I shared from one of our recent outings, as far as my unit is concerned, yes, I'll stand by my thinking that it was a positive outcome.  You & your unit can handle things as you see fit and I'll do the same.   But thanks for the assumption that I & my other adults sit around snooping & gossiping about our unit's medical histories. That speaks volumes of how you feel about Scouters who do things differently than you.

I always glance over the medical forms to make sure I am aware of any pertinent information.  I want to know before heading out if I have a dad with a heart condition.  Or that Scout that has asthma, or another that has a peanut allergy.  These are all things that I've learned by glancing at the med forms, but had never been verbalized to me by either Scouts nor parents.  I had another incidence years ago when we were camping on an aircraft carrier.  A dad developed a medical condition at 3am where I ended up going with him to the ER.  He was conscious, but in & out of awareness.  The medics were there at the ship when it happened, so they were on the scene before another leader could go get the med form out of my bag.  Since I had looked over his med forms, I was able to tell them of his drug allergy before the med form was brought to me. 

8 hours ago, carebear3895 said:

*whispers*

Co-Ed Dens are the norm in the field. 

It's too bad that as Scouters, some pretend to go by the rules (on paper), when in reality, so many dance around the rules that are set in place.  And then we wonder why our youth take it upon themselves to decide which rules to follow and which ones are ok to just pretend that we follow. Either we have co-ed dens, or we don't.  If co-ed Dens are what BSA wants, then why do we have to whisper it?  If co-ed Dens are not what BSA wants, then why do we pretend to follow the rules, on paper, but really openly go against it? 

When I was leading the Pack, we never had a problem with recently crossed-over Webelos continuing to participate in Pack activities.  As mentioned, they wouldn't earn any award for anything, but many have spent 5 years in the Pack and we had Spring events that they had grown accustomed to. We all knew that they were Boy Scouts now & no longer Webelos, but saw no harm in letting them continue with Pack activities if the choose to until the end of the school year.  Whether they paid for the activity, or the Pack paid, all depended on the activity and how the payments were being handled for everyone else.  

5 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Yes what a contrast  to see how securely my health form is handled at  my doctor exam , yet that same form and information is so carelessly handled by the BSA.  

Your doctor is bound by law to handle it securely.  The BSA? No such restrictions.  I know that you are aware of that though.  It is quite a contrast in how information is handled.

3 hours ago, malraux said:

They are better in some ways. Camp cards people want to buy, whereas popcorn you're really selling. 

This>>> Popcorn is always a hard sell for my Scouts.  I have very few who actually participate in the popcorn sale.  However, I always have people asking when we will have camp cards and they seek us out to buy them.

15 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

Our council raised the prices to $10 last year... so much harder to sell. 

That would make it much tougher to sell. Ours are still $5, the Council keeps $2.50 and the Unit keeps $2.50.  Most of the Units around here apply the $2.50 to the Scout's account.  If a Scout sells a certain number of cards, they can earn scholarships to various camping options at our Council Camp.  If they earn a scholarship, they still get the $2.50 from each card added to their Scout account.  Selling 100 cards will earn Free Cub Day Camp or BSA Climbing or Shooting Weekend, 200 cards earns either BSA Summer Camp or Winter Camp, etc.

8 hours ago, SR540Beaver said:

Our districts have two Eagle Board of Reviews.  One is to get the project approved and the other is the final where they earn Eagle.  These BOR's are held once a month and each BOR has at least 3 adults on the board.  We may have 4 to 5 boards running with 3 adults each depending on how many Scouts scheduled for a BOR.  The District Eagle Chair plays traffic cop in scheduling the monthly date, scheduling the Scouts and recruiting the number of boards and adults needed per month.  They also check to make sure all the T's are crossed and I's dotted on signatures, reference letters, etc.  The Eagle Chair doesn't actually sit on any boards.

And how many BOR adults are registered, female leaders that are at least 21 years of age or older?  That sounds similar to how our District runs the Eagle Boards of Review, and we usually have at least 2-3 suitable female leaders that are at the Eagle Boards.  However, we only have a BOR when the actually sit with the Board after all of the requirements have been met.  The initial meeting where they get their project approved and signed is not a BOR, but rather only the Scout (with a parent present) meeting with our District Eagle Chair to review and sign the project. 

When it comes time for these new female youth Scouts to begin working on their Eagle projects, what adult leadership (21 years old & over) will be required when meeting with the District Eagle Chair?  In our District, when a Scout is beginning to work on his Eagle project, he meets with the District Eagle Chair to review the proposal and obtain the needed signature.  The Eagle Chair always has the Scout bring a parent so that 2-deep leadership(?) requirement has been met.  This has always worked in that it could be mom or dad attending.  In the future, when the youth is a female, does the policy require that only mom could attend?  Or at least another adult female, which would then require at least another Scout so that there is no 1-on-1 contact between Scout/ adult. If only dad brings the female youth, then there would not be an adult female at that meeting.  I know that this isn't an issue, yet, but it will come up very soon.

On 2/12/2019 at 1:44 PM, John-in-KC said:

Just a bit significant. 

Pole vaulting over mouse turds.  I wonder how much National paid the attorneys for that wordsmithing?

Pole vaulting for sure, but no doubt it would be used to absolve BSA from liability if it comes down to it.  These seem like such minor, insignificant changes, but they were intentionally made. 

4 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I feel your pain. But the larger portion of the market wants sex segregation to be the law (or at least very strong suggestion) of the land.

I understand that.  But either we are co-ed, or we are sex/ gender segregated.  Either is fine with me, but if the majority wants segregated, which is what BSA also says, then we should stick with segregation and quit playing word games to pretend that we are segregated.

I would actually prefer to just go co-ed.  My CO does not want a girls unit at this time.  Since BSA wrote the rules that units should be segregated, we have nothing to offer to the girls who would like to join us.  If BSA just went ahead and called it co-ed, like so many units are creatively doing, then we could accept girls & move on.  

3 hours ago, Laxplr21 said:

For registration purposes, the lone scout may work here.  There are no other female cub scouts in the den, there would not be the required number for a den to be formed.  Be sure to check out the link on Lone Scouts through the BSA site https://www.scouting.org/commissioners/lone-scout/

Make sure you speak with the unit commissioner.  If you do not have a unit commissioner, contact the district commissioner.  Their role is to help leaders of units.  They are a great resource to ask for help

 

Are there no other Packs in the area that have a girl's den?  The way I understand the Lone Scout program to work, is that there not be a convenient Pack/ Troop in the area.  Not just that the Scout wants a particular unit.  Would you say that the Lone Scout program would work for a boy, let's say a Wolf, who wanted to join a specific Pack that had no other Wolves? So he would register as a Lone Scout, but participate in all Pack activities as if he were a part of that Pack? 

19 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

FYI, A male den and a female den can have "joint" den meetings.

Can BSA just go ahead and say that Pack/ Troop/ Dens/ Patrols are co-ed?  I mean, with all of the "joint" meeting non-sense, how much longer before they just go ahead and call the units co-ed?  At least then, the units that are actually trying to go by the rules & the spirit of the rule won't look at the other units as looking for "creative" ways to skirt around the rules.  If we are going to be co-ed, let's just call it what it really is.  If we're not going to be co-ed, then stick to that as well.  

Any update on this?  I have been having trouble logging into Scoutbook as well.  I was finally get it to log in and it recognizes my name, but I do not see any option to set up my unit (I am the SM).  It won't let me set up for my own son.  It has been very frustrating trying to get it setup or even logged in.  I'm thinking to just continue using Troopmaster which works well for us, but I don't know if that will be an option going forward.  

Scoutbook definitely does not seem to be user friendly.  I foresee a lot of frustration in my future in trying to get others in my Troop setup to use it also.

13 hours ago, SSScout said:

Oh, the times they are a-changing (or changed...)

Waaaay back when I was about 7 or 8 years of age, my grand dad died, and mom and pop and I made the trip up to Boston to make the arrangements.  After they settled us in the motel,  they talked to me and decided after the "viewing", I did not have to tag along with them as they made all the other arrangements, so they wrote down everything, made sure I knew where they would be,  made sure I knew where the motel was, gave me a key(!) and set me in a taxi with money for the fare both ways, and sent me off to a museum.  That's how much they trusted me, and not to mention, the taxi driver, who was tipped generously to come back to pick me up and take me back to the motel. 

At that age, what did I know?  I trusted my folks, both consciously and I guess, unconsciously. 

When I got back to the motel, I turned on the tv, sat down and watched (I do remember this) Sonya Hennie in an old movie.   My folks came back in time to go to dinner, and then they went out again for attorney stuff , they said.  I watched a lot of old movies back then (my wife might say I haven't changed much !). 

How would people react to that nowadays?  Child endangerment?  Abandonment?   I do not think I was challenged once as I walked thru the museum, a single 8 year old skinny kid.  The taxi driver did his job,  my folks came back,  we came to Boston to say goodbye to my Gdad, and then after a week or so of vacation (for me at least), we went home . I think I was even excused from school for the time. 

I agree that times have certainly changed.  But in your example, at least it is your own parents making the decision to send you off in a taxi. I have no problem with that, we as parents know what our kids are capable of and are ultimately responsible for those decisions.  As a SM, I would not make the decision to send someone else's child off in a taxi, Uber or anything else.  If nothing else, how would that even come close to meeting YPT standards? I may do a lot of things differently with my own child than I will do with someone else's.

5 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Apparently two-deep married  ok. 

“Winchester Cub Scout Pack 507 (grades 1-5) has over 110 Scouts in it, making it one of the largest Cub Scout packs in the Greater Boston area,” said Matt Gordon. “I am an Eagle Scout myself and was the leader in charge of the whole Cub Scout Pack (called the Cubmaster) for the past four years and was getting ready to retire after my son, Sam, crossed over from Cub Scouts into Boy Scouts last spring.”

The new Winchester Cub Scout den comprises eight girls and began meeting in September. Their activities have included camping in the Blue Hills Reservation, canoeing, traversing a high ropes course and outdoor cooking over a campfire.

http://winchester.wickedlocal.com/news/20181106/meet-winchesters-first-cub-scout-girl-den

It's possible that Pack 507 may not be doing everything exactly according to the Guide to Safe Scouting.  When did BSA begin allowing Cub Scouts to participate in High Ropes Courses?  Perhaps if they are following the GTSS, maybe they aren't exactly following YPT either? 

6 hours ago, Setonfan said:

Do we really think parents are truly confused that both organizations exist?

Yes, people are confused that both organizations exist and are separate.  I have been surprised at the number of people who truly did not know that the 2 organizations were not the same.  And even more so to find out that they are not finally joining into one organization. 

Well, the one that I thought I had was not there.  So I guess I don't have one to send. 

I believe I have one I can send to you.  I will be at our PLC meeting tomorrow night (11/6/18) & can double check.  If I have one there, I'll let you know & send it. 

46 minutes ago, sst3rd said:

I've just finished a year of mentorship with a new(er) scoutmaster of a recharged troop (asked to assist by the council). Their associated pack always has successful "school nights for scouting) recruitment programs. They are assigned two elementary schools exclusively. The last weekly pack meeting (where all dens meet, but separately), there are now lots of girls. They mix them in with the boys in the same dens. They know it's not correct, but they simply don't have enough leaders, and the new parents aren't volunteering. And they don't want to turn the new cubs away. I asked the scoutmaster what are the plans for when the girl scouts are ready for the troop. She says there are no plans she's aware of. She wants the troop to remain boys only as does the other troop leaders and parents. I suggested strongly that they have a plan. If anything, know of the nearest girl scouts bsa troop to point them to. But the other problem is that they also have brotherss in the pack, and they expect everyone will be graduating to the troop when the time comes. Yeah, right.

 

Oh well. My mentorship has come to a close. Until next time America.

 

sst3rd

It sounds like they do have a plan.  Their plan is to remain a boys only Troop.  It sounds like the Pack leaders might want to start looking for to identify a girl's Troop where they can refer the Webelos who are female.  As I see it, that isn't really an issue for the Scoutmaster.  That is more of an issue for the Cubmaster, Webelos Den Leader & Chartered Org Rep.  I am a Scoutmaster whose CO has no intention of a girls troop at this time either, but we don't have an associated Pack at this time.

@RennyTompson, I would not expect this to be a major issue to resolve.  Not knowing the specifics of how the money is handled within your Troop/ Patrol, I would first make a list of the food you brought, along with prices as best as you can.  If it was paid with credit card, even better it you can show that on a statement.  After you have that info prepared, talk with your Scoutmaster, and if necessary, the Troop Treasurer, and explain the situation.  As others have mentioned, things like this will happen throughout life.  Sometimes we just have to re-create the info as best as we can.  One thing that I always try to do is to pay Troop expenses in a separate transaction. Sometimes, I'll pick up personal items & Troop items on the same store visit.  I have the cashier ring it as separate transactions so that I can have separate receipts.  This helps if I need to pull a credit card transaction too.