AvidSM

My Mom taught me how to sew. I just wondering how many of the scouts mom's know how. You can't expect the boy to sew his own patches on right if he was never taught. If Mom's were allowed to be scouts we'd have great meals on campouts!

Since the uniform is one of the methods of scouting, every scouter, in a way, is a member of the UP. If you are able to point out improper uniforming in a polite and constructive way, I say there is nothing wrong with it. I agree that you should not say anything to a scout outside of your unit. That's the job of their leaders, not yours. What I won't defend are the people that insist on the full and proper uniform for Scoutmaster's conferences or BOR's. It is a big challenge for some boys to show up in full uniform. Some Mom's don't sew or don't have the time. And they grow out of their pants very fast.

I will admit that you should have the experience and knowledge to know when a rule applies and when it doesn't. Blindly appling a rule improperly for the sake of following the rules is "rulesmongering". But for those who don't have the knowlegde if a rule applies or not, and apply it anyway to err on the side of caution, I say they are doing nothing wrong. And, as for dumb people ingoring the wrong rules, I think that is the greatest risk to scouting. Only because nobody sees themselves as being dumb.

The crossing sign says, "Do not walk". You look both ways, see no cars coming, and cross the street anyway. You saw no risk, but broke the "do not walk" rule. Now you are at the same street, but in uniform with a group of scouts. The sign says, "Do not walk". You look both ways and see no traffic. Does your group cross? The situation changes because it's not just you anymore. You are responsible for everyone in the group (plus, you set a bad example by not following the crossing sign). You might make it across in time, but what about your slowest scout? There are too many unknowns in this situation. So it is with scouting. You may think a rule should not be followed (the "do not cross" signal with no visible traffic), but you cannot possibly know enough about everything to have your unit disregard that rule. You may not see the risks, but someone else who makes up the rules has. Someone with far greater experience and knowledge than you has weighed the risks and determined that it's not worth it. If you are the kind of person who has no respect for these rule makers and think yourself more knowledgeable or experienced then they, go ahead and cross ... just don't do it with my scouts in tow.

To set the right example, you must do it %100. Anything less than that and you have failed. And, never use the F word - one of the most overused in a cursers vocabulary. I always say, "cursing shows your ingnorance".

I agree with both of fotoscout's posts! For some just joined boy scouts not used to camping, sharing a tent with their parent would help them get used to it. But after the first few times, I would strongly discourage it, for reasons of peer bonding and learning independency, as well stated in previous posts. I have one second year scout who still tents with his Dad. I also have a pair of scouts who tent with their patrol, but constantly go back and forth to their dad with every little question or need. I do what I can to discourage it, but some Dad's don't seem to get it. I have noticed that some can't let go in this way. If I banned them from camping with the troop, it know it will cause bad feelings.

I thinks Scoutingagain's last post rings true. Advancement: - is something a boy has to want to do - might need to be prodded along a little - (work) must be done by the scout I have seen some parents being very competitive with their child's achievements: getting tutors when their grades fall, doing their science fair project for them, enrolling them in sports summer camps and traveling leages. Having their son advance as a scout is just another one of those thing for them to push. I really don't know what to say to these people. To me, scouting is not a competitive sport; there are no winners or losers. You can't "bench" a scout for not showing up at a meeting before a campout. We don't "grade" a scout on his performance. Boys who are being excessively pushed by their parents are not learning to make decisions on their own. I have some younger scouts in my troop who can't tell me what trips they want to go on - they are waiting for their Mom or Dad to tell them what to do. Some don't even bother listening to announcemnents because of this! Their attitude is: if it's that important - my parents will tell me. I guess I deal with these people by just doing my job as Scoutmaster - to get these boys to think and do on their own - to help them take on more responsibilities and to make the right choices. They will become adults whether their parents want them to or not.

My story is the same as Eamonn's - all the people on my troop's committee are my friends. I have spent many nights camping with most of them. When there is a position that needs to be filled, we talk amongst ourselves and come up with someone we like. Usually this is an active parent who hasn't been asked to do anything yet. The one other position I would add to John-in-KC's list is Activity Chair. This is someone who makes the phone calls/reservations and proccesses the tour permits. Having someone dedication to doing this is a big help for me as Scoutmaster. Normally I get the reservation papers and the tour permit handed to me the night before a trip. As for Merit Badge Councelors, I also agree with Acco40. They don't have to be a member of a Troop, but they do have to fill out an Adult Application Form without paying any registration fee (no Scouter magazine). My Council also has their own Councelor Application Form which needs to be submitted.

I like Anne's option also! Campcrafter - I joined scouting for my son also. But now he's aged out and I'm still in it. So, you can be in it for more than just your son. And, it appears that you are keeping a objective point of view. So try to have fun, and as Anne suggested, it's just a game!

Campcrafter, Here are some suggestions I have for your situation: First, you can find another Troop that is more "boy led". This may not give your son the sturcture he needs because boy led meeting can be equally chaotic. It will also take you and your son away from your church and his friends. Perhaps you can convince some of the other parents to switch troops with you? Second, you can try to talk to the current leadership and get them to change their ways. Based on you posting, you are giving this option a try. I wish you the best of luck in this, but I would not expect these leaders to change. They probably like the way things are run and until they leave, the status quo will prevail. Third, you can find a new chartering organization and form a new troop. This would be based on how many boys you can get to join you from the 10 that just joined you current troop. So, there are you options as I see them, from easiest to the hardest. I hope your son decides to stick with it. I seems that you know some things about scouting and are into the program. But remember, It's his choice to stay no matter how you feel. You must step back a moment from this and ask yourself - Is he not happy with the situation, or is it just you? Is he picking up a bad vibes from you? Or, is the situation in the troop that bad? Yours in Scouting, AvidSM

Welcome!

Great minds must think alike! I got pizza for the boys afterwards too! I agree with most of the posts so far in that you have to bring in some of the old course and mix it in with the new. I was just as suprised by the lightness of the matrial in the new training packet. It took a lot of work to take that rough outline and turn it into a course. Why did National issue such a sketchy outline? I would have more confidence in teaching the course if I had more to go with. And about the vision thing. It's simply a picture in your mind as to the way things should be in your Troop. It's your ideal of how a Troop should be run and what the program should be. Without a clear vision to share with the boys, they have no direction as to where things are headed. The new course only gives an introduction of the EDGE method. Give it your best shot based on outline and tell the boys they will learn more in depth at NYLTC. I don't agree with rejecting the outline alltogether and going back to the old course. The boys hated the video and WE did most of the talking. Youv'e got to get the boys to start talking! The old course did nothing to focus the boys on what they should be doing and what steps they need to get there. It was more of a job description and a team building exersize. The new course engages the boys more and gets them to think more about what they should be doing for the Troop. And, more importantly, it sets tangible goals for them to shoot for.

You would think that if there was one good method for doing things the word would get around in forums like this one. You would think that National would pick up on this one good method for running a troop and share it with everyone - assuming National has the most experienced and gifted leaders. You would think that would avoid having leaders trying out new ways of doing things, at the expense of the boys - notice I didn't say "experiment". The positions of Troop Guide and ASM for new-scouts is mentioned several times in the Scoutmaster's Handbook. Even though leaders are given the option to go with mixed patrols, you would think that by the frequency at which they mention these positions would tell you that new-scout patrols is the preferred method. If you don't properly use the patrol method, use the position of Troop Guide, or have things boy-run, then having a new-scout Patrol is going to be a challenge. It's much easier for the adults to run things and for the boys to be thrown together in mixed patrols. But, the boys do not get as much out of the program as they should. The easy way is not always the right way.

Regarding New Scout Patrols, Page 20 of the Scoutmaster's handbook says, "Many troops have a new-Scout patrol for 11-year-old boys who are just joining." -Why should a troops have this? It continues, "The new Scouts function together as a patrol during their first year in the troop, working towards their goal of completing the requirments for the First Class rank." -Then the handbook contridicts itself in saying, "Some troops phase their new Scouts into regular patrols after three to six months" -No reason is given in the handbook as to why a trooop would do this. If the previously stated reason for keeping them together is to work towards their First Class rank, how does phasing them into regular patrols after three months accomplish this? Is the confusion as to what a troop should be doing with their new scouts causing leaders to try different ways of doing things?

Our Troop committee meetings are held at the same time as the scouts meet, so the SPL/ASPL are busy running things there. Otherwise, I agree with FScouter in that there is no pupose for youth to be attending the committee meeting. I find them long and boring myself - I can't imagine a boy having to sit through one.

Eagledad makes a good point in that these new boys have never seen idependence from an adult. They seem to have no sense of responsibility for themselves. It's a challege to get them to listen to announcments. Their attitude is that it's someone else's job to listen to them, make the decisions for them and then tell them what they are going to be doing. The other good point Eagledad makes is the importance of a good Troop Guide and ASM assigned to new scouts. Without these people trained and in place, a new scout patrol does not work as well. Do some troops choose to go with mixed patrols because they can't or don't know how to staff these positions? In repy to SR540Beaver, I will merge patrols if their numbers go down due to attrition. But the merger is with boys closest to their age as possible. I will form a NSP if I can, or put them with the twelve year old patrol if there is not enough. My older boys all enjoy teaching skills to the younger scouts. They don't have to be in the same patrol to do this. At summer camp, we buddy up an older boy with a new boy to act as mentor. At the end of each day, they go through what they have learned and sign off on requirements after they have been properly demonstrated. If the older boys don't want anything to do with the younger boys, it won't matter what type of patrols you have. Sounds like you just had a bad experience with a poorly run/trained troop.

The purpose of having patrols in a Troop is to form tight cliques of 6-8 boys. Boys tend to work best in this type of grouping. Having the boys start together in one patrol and keeping them together gives them the best chance of forming that tight group. This is the foundation of the patrol method. Why would you throw new boys into an existing patrol with older boys who have their own established clique? Or, why would you break up a new patrol, after they have had a chance to form a cohesive group after 6-8 months? By saying mixed patrols "work well" - what does that mean? Do they work well for the adult leaders because they don't have to deal with a disfunctional patrol of new scouts? How do you realize the advantages of the patrol method with mixed patrols?

Beavah - How many of the new scout in your mixed patrols get elected as patrol leaders? How does your Troop Guide function with the new boys spread across patrols? A patrol formed from new boys gives at least one boy a chance to be a leader. And, it gives a chance for the Troop Guide to give advice to that new leader, which is one of his main duties.

Good going Mark! You've worked your ticket back! -Dave

And when we make changes to the core parts of the BSA program, because we think we know better, or because we have a need to resist the order of things, or because we took the two seconds to think about it, how do we know what we are doing is right? What means of feedback to we have? It's not like the BSA has a standardized test like our schools, which verify the effectiveness of our teachers. One might claim that their way is more effective because the scouts are advancing faster, retention in higher, the program is more fun, etc. But none of things give any real indication as to mission success. There are many ways to knowingly or unknowingly game these metrics, to the shame of the leaders and detriment of the scouts. What part of the program is most effective? Is it boys led? Patrol method? Elected leaders? The outdoors? How do you know that the part you are changing isn't the one that matters most? There are core parts which are essential to the program and should be the same from unit to unit. The differences come from the people involved and how they interpret, adapt and apply the rules and guidance of the BSA. How boring and limited scouting would be if all units did things exactly the same! We can only assume that what we are doing is working. We find out as much as we can by observing and talking to the boys. But, in the end, it is only our faith in the program that assures us. And, it would be hard for me to believe in the good work I am doing through scouting without this faith.

In reference to Beavah's three cases of leaders, we all start out as new leaders (case 3), keeping with the guidance and regulations as written or taught. Then, as time passes, we grow and and develop our own "style". My question is, how do we know if we have developed into a good leader (case 2) or a poor leader (case 1), who just thinks they're good? Everyone likes to think themselves as a person who is trying their best; it's a natural human trait to see yourself in a positive light. And, knowing this, why do we take the risk of doing things that much differently? Are we that strong of a leader that we know all these differences are for the better? Or, are our egos driving us to reinvent the wheel? Some may think they are "pushing the envelope" or "dealing with the real world". But, who are we to know where scouting is headed? BSA standards and guidance are based on the collective experiences of all those who have gone before us. We should think long and hard before we choose to deviate from them.

The standards of Scouting are much like to standards of the english language. Change a couple o da rules and you still get yo message across. Bt chnge a lt o th rls n its vry hrd t reed th msg. So it is with Scouting. It OK to be different, as long as you are making sensible and adaptive changes (and you are not violating YPP or G2SS rules). Make a too many changes, for whatever reasons, and you are no longer delivering a scouting program.

Scouting is a good classroom to teach ethics and morals. How the boys treat each other in the troop is a good indication how they treat everyone else. Ethics and morals are about making choices. And we must teach them to make the right choices, for themselves and others. The first step an aldult leader must take to promote this is allowing the boys to make their own decisions. This can be a challenge for some adults. But, if the boys are not allowed to practice making choices, then they can't get good at it. The second step is to allow the boys to see the results of their decisions, good or bad. Adults leaders must refrain from trying to fix problems caused by the wrong decisions and taking credit for the right ones. They must give credit where it is due, good or bad. As long as it's not safety or youth protection related, failure should be allowed to happen. This is scouting, not NASA. The third step is to set the right example as an adult. Treat everyone with respect and always take the high road. The boys see and emulate adult behavior to a great extent at this age. Your religious beliefs, how you treat others, what you do at home and work reflects on your ethics and morals.

I agree with SeattlePioneer in that ANY uniform will produce unhappy complaints. However, what the heck were they thinking when they let some fashion designer dictate the design?! It's obvious that FORM was greatly sacrificed over FUNCTION. How do we let National know that we're not happy with it and it's time for change? I think they know - they are just not willing to admit their mistake and move on - step one in any twelve step process. OldGreyEagle's post makes a lot of sense. Get the boys input and let them vote on it. This could be a big boon for Boys Life and for all the big outdoor stores. National should be thinking synergy here. The best reason I could give National for a redisign is technology. Look at all the new fabrics that are out there now. I was new technology the forced the US to redesign it's currency. Why not the BSA? As for using foil to prevent them from reading our minds - it works best if you line the inside of your scout hat with it - shiny side OUT!

I told the boys that a "vision" is a picture in your mind of the way thing should be. Then I presented my "Scoutmaster's vision of success" in three points, in priority: #1 - All Youth Leaders trained and doing their jobs = Boy Run Troop #2 - All Adult Leaders trained and doing their jobs #3 - Meeting our Goals as established during the Annual Program Planning Meeting My SPL reviewed this and said that his vision was for everyone to be doing their jobs like they are supposed to. This aligned with my #1 point. The EDGE method seemed straightforward enough to me to introduce to the boys. Perhaps it's because I'm an engineer? I taught the boys a butterfly knot using the method. The four steps, explain, demonstrate, guide and enable seem to flow into each other well enough that I was confortable with it. I would think most Scoutmasters would not have a problem introducing it in this training, with the more extensive EDGE instruction happening at NYLT. The parts of the training that got their attention and prompted the most discussion was the "Start - Stop - Continue" assessment of how the Troop was doing and asking them "What do you need?". We got a lot of good ideas on how to improve the program from these sessions and a list of new equipment and items to bring up to the committee. This training was a real good shot in the arm for the SPL and the PL's - especially the PL's. We had our first PLC since this training last night and it was very productive with lots of specific tasking from the SPL. They all seem more focused on what they are supposed to be doing.