LPC_Thumper

You ask if an Eagle Board would reject or think badly about a boy with a creative patrol patch. As a chair for such a committe here's my two cents worth.

We as a whole are usually the guys that can quote chapter and verse on rules. There is nothing in the guidelines on this topic. So "offically" nothing should happen.

Now as for the question of "Would these scouts be penalized for being creative?" Not at my board, in fact, he would be built up. Even if, the patch was so distorted you could no longer tell what was there other than "something." Scouts is about personal challenge. Scouts is about performance, and about getting outside of your comfort zone. And now you bring a young man to a board that has that for a patrol patch. I'd make a point of letting him know what I think.

Have fun with it, but do the hard thing. Let them figure out how to make it a reality, as best you can.

Being from California we are used to being out there...

As adults the only restriction we have placed on them is that the Scouts have to use the patrol emblems that can purchased from Scout Supply. Some of the memborable ones:

The Pedros (you've all seen the Pedro patch, right?)

How many "Road Runners" have you had?

How about "Lightning"?

The Condors (they used the Hawk patch)

The Sharks (I think if the San Jose Sharks had wanted to they would have had these kids on trademark violations.) The supply patch looks a lot like the NHL's logo.

My all time favorite however is still "The Big Buff Bisons"... you know where this one is going, the "buffest" guy was a distance runner at the high school (on the JV team when the patrol started), as they stood there in line their little skinny legs bulged at their knees. They played hard, and really were Big and Buff scouts.

I totally agree with Bob White. I was amazed to hear that some are using SPL to help with NSP... If the SPL is doing that who's running the troop? Who's ensuring meeting is running according to the agenda the PLC approved? Heck who's running the PLC? Troop Guides take a group of new scouts that are used to a Den Cheif (with any luck) and turn them into a patrol of scouts that are very willing to follow the SPL and do what they would like to do.

Speaking from experience, smaller troops don't need all the leadership a large troop has. In my former situation. We never had more that twelve boys in our troop. By the time you split them in two patrols and introduce 4 leaders there ( 2 PL & 2 APL) and have an SPL, you now have 5 of the 12 leading. Talk about a top heavy organization! (For those that are wondering, when our SPL couldn't make the meetings, he rotated those responsibilities to between the 2 PLs. The effected PL had his APL run their patrol) As the troop grew ASPL was the first office we added.

By the time you add it TG, Scribe, Quartermaster, (and of course) DC to the mix you only have 3 boys that don't hold a "major, needed" role. Notice we didn't have a bugler? We had taps, I used to play my harmonica for that. Of those orginal 12 boys, 10 made Eagle, 11 will tell you that scouts was great, the other one, well we can't all be successful. (By the way, I was SM for 4 years) At the end of my service the troop had grown to about 25, and is still going today, just in a different town.

In the large troop that I CC for, we have had multiple TG (as many as 3) 2 ASPLs, 60 scouts is a whole different world from what I was doing as a SM. But again, we have scouts that learn to lead.

In both cases if you hung around long enough, you'd see both SPLs cook, clean, pitch tents, or be in charge. I think that is one of the GREAT lessons of leadership in scouting.

I have three positions in Scouting. Two are District, and the other is a CC. Our SM is a buddy of over 20 years. He is the reason that I'm in this troop in the first place. He and are were Unit Commissioners together, we are friends away from Scouting. One of the highlights of my life is taking our sons (he and I and 2 other adults) to Philmont for a trek (along with other boys in the troop).

You ask if it's OK to question a SM. I can only talk about my personal experience.

We ask each other stuff all the time. We ask in front of the boys, we ask in front of the committee, we ask at our "program" meetings in front of the other adults that advise the troop. We talk all the time. Remember the real hint is we've become FRIENDS because of scouts, I know he's got my back, and frankly, I have his. It works for us.

The way I introduce the topic of their project is to ask the canidate to read the cover page of their service project. Almost always (you know that sage advice about "Never say Always"?) The have included either the cover, or have stuck the workbook somewhere in the packet they turn in. Once they have read the title, I ask them, "Tell me how you showed leadership during this service project."

When you stand back and let the boys rise to the occasion you are very rarely disappointed by what they will do. Because you as an adult are an authority figure, they won't pick up the tasks unless you let them.

I find that the hardest part of scouting. I also find that the most rewarding part as well. My SM let me lead. He had more of an impact than he ever knew, simply because he stayed out of our way and let us figure out what we were doing. We were safe, because when our inexperienced guesses were going to lead us to harm, he shut us down. He wouldn't solve the problem, he'd just tell us what we couldnt' do and why.

I completly agree with Bob.

I've been an SM for a small troop (about 10 boys). We only had 2 patrols, and an SPL (no ASPL, no need) Every scout had an office, every scout contributed to that troop. No on in a troop of 10 had more than one office.

Now I'm a CC for a troop of 60. Every scout that wants an office has one, every scout contributes, no one has more than one office. There is no such thing as a better office, all contribute to help the troop work.

(I'll now climb off my soap box, and play nice in the sand box)

The differnce between a "cheap" and an "expensive" DO has to do with 2 things. First "cheaper" ones may be thinner, and MAY (notice I stressed that?) not deliver as uniform a heat as a thicker one. Now if you have a good solid DO that is about as thick as a Lodge, and is half the price remember the ninth point of the Scout Law (A Scout is THRIFTY). I use only Lodge ovens, and have always been VERY happy with them. Also if you're having trouble with heat, remember charcol needs to be good too. I always use Kingston, and not the match light stuff. I have a scouting buddy that runs a great site, check it out

http://www.laughingoak.com/

Yummy!!

Congrats on sitting on the Board. They are a wonderful event. As a chairman of a Board, let me tell you what my district does. We hold a semi-annual meeting (during roundtable actually) where we invite any interested parties (knowing full well that most of the times parents are either going to come or are going to shove their sons to it).

The agenda of this workshop is to look at packets over the past six months of what worked. We talk about what software programs seem to work, we talk about importing pictures into Word and how to label them.

We talk about what a project is supposed to be. We talk about what leadership is. We spend about an hour and let our scouts know what we are looking for. Some have very creative ideas.

We lay it all out. Then we give them a handout. Perhaps you've heard of it? It's called "Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook" in case you were wondering.

Hope this helps, good luck, and happy scouting!

Let me take a stab at this. Other's will come along and further direct, but I can help you now. Get your ideas rolling and then you'll have a clearer picture of what to do.

The requirements are basically the same for each rank that requires them. They are:

Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, bugler, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, or instructor.

Now as long as they are doing one of these things for the correct period of time. Things are fine. It can be ANY of these (in fact it can be "...one or more of the following positions of responsibility " or it can be to "...carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop.")

Now then... what was your problem? I don't understand where you have a concern the book can't resolve... Good luck and Happy Scouting!

I agree with many, BofR is NOT the place to turn a kid down because he isn't mature. I think the idea of focusing in on the long haul is important, it is also important to ensure that a job is done. Let the scout go and do his thing.

What's the worst that can happen? I'm a CC (just to give you a reference point) a buddy of mine (actually my son's former CM) was on the fast track to Eagle. Had everything done, and was at his Eagle BofR. They asked him what the Scout Oath was. He immediately jumped up extended his right arm straight up, extended two figures and started, "I, Jim promise..."

That's about as far as he got before the chairman of the Board thanked him and told him to come back in six months. Six months later he was back. And has told me more than once that the BofR did the right thing back then.

Just food for thought...

Hi Scoutdad,

What my troop does is to allow the older boys to teach the skill (at the meeting about how to cook dehydrated meals) I was a boy about the same time. Now after many meals I can tell you that while dehydrated foods are not as good as fresh meals (from a taste stand point), they are dramatically better than what they were when we were doing this. There are many vendors that provide food like this, but they are not cheap.

We don't have a good food source for this sort of thing locally (we live in a VERY rural area), so I don't feel bad about plugging REI.com, Campmor.com, or cabelas.com. (Oh I almost forgot your friendly Army/Navy store might have MREs (these are individual packaged meals that are VERY similar to what I'm describing). They MAY be cheaper than these other suppliers) This way you can look at a menu and get an idea.

When our new scout patrol is getting to these requirements, we let the PLC know where they are at. They then decide how to teach the skill. Then on our next backpack the new scouts get to cook it. It's worked for us this way for several years.

I'm looking forward to other's ideas on this. I could always use more advice.

Good luck with this. (Honest all of these types of meals are lots better than some of the stuff we as kids ate, hey and we lived through it )

Oh wow this site is GREAT!!! Congrats on the work. I hope someday my troop can do such a nice site.

Thanks for giving us such a great target to shoot for!

At the risk of being known as a "nit picker" I need to correct Eagledad. A National Tour Permit is not for treks over 500 miles. It is for trips (National Jambo or for most of us treks to any of the National High Adventure Bases come to mind) that take place more than 500 miles from home. You could travel on a regular tour permit 250 miles north of your home, walk the 500 miles to 250 miles south of your home and nobody (other than your fellow campers) would saw anything.

That last sentence brings up images of awful Algebra word problems, so I guess I should ask about what direction the smoke from the electic train will be traveling, or what time the trains meet, or ????

I think your idea of a huge backpack could be fun for your older guys, for the younger ones, it may be a totally different situation.

I was interested to see your concerns about the Scout not having adequate skills. It's my understanding that the Scoutmaster should be doing that as part of the Scoutmaster conference. Is that other's understand as well. I'd love to hear from other leaders on this topic.

Good catch, I should have started my post with the following:

Step 1, ask the parents for a letter from the scout's doctor.

Step 2, contact the district advancement chair.

I proceeded with my post assumiong those IMPORTANT steps had already been done.

From my experience, both as a Council Venture Training Chair, and as a Troop High Adventure ASM, let me share what I have found.

If your program can benefit fom High Adventure focus then both Philmont & Northern Tier are GREAT resources. If your program can benefit from Youth Ministries, then check out various church camps. It's my understanding that part of advancement for Venture awards that creates problems in regular Scout camps is the teaching skills to others sections. I hope that I'm helping.

I really do think that due to the expense of camps you won't find a lot of camps that can run exclusive Venture summer camps, they will try to financially survive, and accomodate.

Also if you want a fun expiernce for Sea Scouts, or those working on that bronze award. (or others that are into sailing) Check out the Argus from Long Beach California. It could EASILY be tailored to Venturing, and would be a GREAT summer camp exp. I would also check on Camp Cherry Valley (on Catilina Island, off of Los Angeles coast) If any camp that I know of could run some exclusive Venture time, it would be that camp.

Hope this helps.

There will be other ideas on this, I'm sure, but as you look at our opinions you'll get the picture.

In my opinion, you don't just drop the requirements, you change it to appropriate. You first need the note from the scout's doctor that verifies the problem (in my experience, we had a young man in a wheel chair, that had learning disabilities too). Maybe the doctor could suggest OTHER activities that are part of his physical therapy? Maybe leg lifts, maybe something else.

The young man from our unit is still working on eagle. For swimming/hiking/cycling (I mean how do you fill those requirements when you can't move below your arms?) his requirement was changed to Archery. We are still working on a replacement for Physical Fitness. We haven't come up with something that really fits, but we will.

Hope this helps, you'll find something, but don't hesitate to use his doctor. In our case, it really made a difference for us. Good luck!

Horror Stories? Boy do I have horror stories!

My last two trips as a boy. I was a scout in the early 70's, this made some of what we do now sem just bad. Let me share the highlights from my last two trips. BTW, I had already made Eagle by this time. I'm from a VERY rural area on the California Coast, about half way between LA & SF.

The next to the last one was a camporee. After we set up camp, the storm blew in off the ocean. It rained, wind howled, just poured. Now in the 70's you were encouraged (not allowed, encouraged to trench your tents) this was a good thing, except for the younger guys that didn't quite get the idea. These kids trenched THROUGH their tents. We used the old canvas Army surplus pup tents. It took 2 of them to work, you carried one, your buddy carried the other, when we got to camp you buttoned them together. The guys had a six inch trench THROUGH their tent. It was so bad the OA teepee blew OVER. Now the storm lasted the whole time, but one of my foundest scouting memories was standing on a hillside, over looking the ocean, using "semi-four" (how the heck do you spell that?) techniques to signal the message "The weatherman said it was going to be shattered clouds" As an adult, I now understand the creative nature of that message, at the time, I was upset it was so long. (Ironic part, my city has grown to the point that I now live about where that incident took place.)

My last trip as a scout, we went hiking in the Sierras. (In case you don't know, in my part of the country, it doesn't snow. On a cold winter day, if you get up early enough, you'll find frost on roofs of houses) We decided that we didn't need our canvas tents, we would sleep under the stars. This was in the last week of August (In case you aren't from CA, you NEVER go backpacking there then, it snows) We were caught in the snow four days before we were done with our 50 miler. We found caves. We slept in wet bags. I honestly thought we weren't going to make it out. I talked to my Scoutmaster years later about this trip, HE thought we weren't going to make it out. I must say the boys that have been on trips with me haven't ever gone through the thoughts that we were going to freese in the night and just die.

The first trip, we didn't go home because it was FUN, the second trip we couldn't go home, all we could do was get through those hours.

To answer Adrianvs, I look for at least 40 hours from the prospective Eagle, and that he should have less than half the total man hours on the project. Hope that helps. When you do the math, you'll see you have to either have a really small troop, poor participation from the troop, or a very short construction phase to not make this guideline. To try and drive the idea home, it's a guideline, and we aren't hung up on exact numbers for hours. I mean not every scout/varsity scout/venture comes from a unit of 50.

I totally agree with the previous post from frankj. I think you'd be wise to think of things from that point of view.

Good Luck!

Thanks for the lesson... I have only been doing the adult scouter thing in 3 decades (HOW DID I GET SO OLD??), about a year ago I finally figured out the red/green/blue/blaze/silver/gold things are called 'loops.'

I vote suspenders, remember folks there's a thing called YPT

I can't let this one slide. I think you know that from time to time I post things on this site. As a leader in the LDS church let me say this. LDS units that actually follow the documentation they receive from church headquarters will not have any females camping with them. If their leaders attend Woodbadge, they are advised to request an exclusively same sexed patrol. (Since women can be Cub Leaders and since Cub Leaders can/should go to Woodbadge this direction has been given)

Now on the topic of female ASMs. I'm the CC for a troop sponsored by the Knights of Columbus (long story, let's just say it's not an LDS troop), Their SM asked that we not have moms/ladies on campouts. Boys had a hard time with each of the trips we took as we started. Moms serve with me on the committee. Moms come and visit but don't spend the night. It's just what works for us.

I'm only sharing to point out that in some cases this creates problems. In some it does not. If feelings were hurt, I'm of the opinion it had more to do with the delivery rather than the message.

Sea Base for us. This will complete our loop. In 5 years we've done Jambo, 2 times to Philmont, Northern Tier, and now Sea Base. Northern Tier was by far the hardest of the things we did, but then we haven't completed Out Island Adventure at Sea Base, but I don't think that's going to get the hardest rating like Northern Tier did. All are worth doing, even if it costs you more than $1,000 / scout, like ours did. It's a long way from CA to NM, MIN, or FL. But worth it.

Hi...

You list Santa Lucia Area Council, but not Mission Council nor Los Padres. All three are California Councils, BUT here's your history lesson.

10 years ago Mission and Santa Lucia merged and became Los Padres. If you want Los Padres CSP let me know @ ljohnson_ag@charter.net. I'm happy to get you one, no one I know is willing to give up their Santa Lucia's or their Mission's since we all know there won't be more.

YIS

Hi, welcome from someone on the Central CA Coast (really about 1/2 way between LA & SF)

If your son would like to trade CSP or OA flaps, Council is Los Padres, Lodge is Chumash.

Please feel free to e-mail @ ljohnson_ag@charter.net

Fun hobby (I've only been trading for about 20 years). Enjoy and make friends. I would love to trade 2 for 2 of anything he's interested in.

Yours In Scouting,

Lynn

Would you be interested in Los Padres Council (central CA coast)? I can get both CSP & Flap. I'd be interested in 2:2, if possible (that way I can have some to trade )

YIS... please e-mail to ljohnson_ag@charter.net