LPC_Thumper

Wow, I guess you guys were busy while I was away at camporee this past weekend. There are other ways to help accommodate those that don't wish to start camp on Sunday (I know that almost is almost exclusively my faith, but there might be others).

I have served on several summer camp staffs at various camps, and have inspected camps all over the state of California. One idea I saw from another camp, that made great sense to me was that if the troop was planning on arriving on Monday, they were to have a list of the merit badges each scout would like. That way merit badge classes could be filled before they arrived, and then they would just have health checks, and swim checks first thing Monday. The camp also made the staff available for these checks before breakfast. I have also seen camps start to hold registration on the internet before troops get to camp. I think this has helped all units not just the LDS ones.

I really find it interesting that there is such concern about following the Scout Oath and doing ones best to "do my duty to God". When my son decided to try a non-LDS troop many people told him that he would feel out of place, it would be too hard, etc. Luckily he, his SM, and his patrol never got the vision of those concerns. They just worked together to be happy. It was interesting to watch. It might have been different had the troop not been sponsored by a religious service group, but it worked for us.

It's nice to hear you want to include all groups, perhaps the best way is to actually ask your local troops what they would like?

Thanks Bob,

Sorry I missed this post (in other posts I've said that I'm a leader in the LDS church, and a District/Council person). To put my spin on it...

I'm the Committee Chairman for a Troop that's sponsored by The Knights of Columbus. My son earned his Eagle in that Troop (and is now serving a mission for the church in a suburb of Atlanta).

What things did we ask our SM for? As has been mentioned, we left camp on Saturday night (at camporees and things we left after camp fire)

When we were at Philmont & Northern Tier, we held our own worship service.

I had no reservations about allowing my son to grow up with several fine, non-LDS, young men. He had a great time, and we feel we were good examples of our faith.

Today, I still help that troop, but my SM knows come Sunday I'm not around. He also knows that some evenings (including Monday) I have other things I worry about.

It is true that most LDS scouts end up in LDS units, just like it's easy to paint units with the brush that we don't listen, we don't play it right, etc... but as BW has said, are these units the only ones that aren't inline? If so, where are their commisioners? We feel it is very important to set good examples, and follow the rules. I feel that if someone is out of step more often than not it's because they don't do the dance...

To echo what you've heard from It's Me... REI is wonderful!!!

We outfitted our troop with their name brand 3 man, we put 2 boys in them. We've only had them for 7 years. Use them every month. Used them at Philmont, used them at Northern Tier, used them in the Sierras, use them on top of Mt. Shasta, and in the Grand Canyon, Sea Base staff thought they were nice, and asked us to use theirs.

We are still waiting for our first broken pole, or broken zipper. Now ripped side, we've had... something about boys wrestling in tents. Lost poles... oh yeah, but when we find that we can order more from REI. We've been really happy and would tell you that the trick is to understand that the guys that decide how many campers go in a tent either just plain lie (OK maybe just exagerate), or they are gnomes. I'll let you decide which is more accurate.

What you've read is almost accurate. As a member of the LDS church, and one that serves on several BSA as well as LDS committees, let me clear up the mud, just a bit.

It's true that LDS Cubs don't do Tigers, also they start Cubs after the boy's 8th birthday. (We feel it's important that these children be at home). They don't camp, BUT don't read they don't do day camp (we do, just don't Cub camp over-night), we also run many outings, and try to make Cubs as fun as possible. So, if you start at 8 and advance each year, you only get 3 years before you turn 11. (See how you'd end up with only one year for Webelos?) The real difference for all you experienced Webelos leaders is that we don't use the national program plan, instead, we provide exposure to those required for Arrow of Light. Yes it's a limited program, but they get a good taste of what's there.

Now let's move onto Blazers, that's an old name for the Patrol, but is very much in use in the "trenches" (or is that pews, since we're dealing with a church?). The whole purpose of Blazers is EXACTLY what you'd want from a new scout patrol. The differences? Well... we've been doing this since the 60's. Also these young men camp a total of 3 nights during this year (goes right back to the keep the children at home concept).

Once a young man hits 12 years of age, he camps any time he'd like for as long as he'd like, except because of his priesthood commitments, he really should be home on Sunday. Local leadership interprets this guideline differently, BUT the direction is that they should be encouraged to attend church on a weekly basis.

As for leadership, young men are encouraged to gain as much knowledge in any of it's forms as possible. Leadership is not age based, programs are aged based.

Hope this helps

Hi,

Good questions, let's run back over them.

1 - #1 Rule of Thumb, you can't add nor delete requirements. If they are listed on the card, that's what they are. You are welcome to add "additional information" as you'd like, BUT don't add to the requirement. You with me? You want your guys to learn proper hatchet methods? Teach them! You've already got an axe yard up, and a deom area... use your resources. Just don't make this extra info required for the badge.

2 - The manuals are always a good place to start. There are other resources that can help you (The Fieldbook comes to mind, as does various program helps)

I'm sure you'll figure out that the last meeting before the campout is a lot better place to firm things up, but have a great trip and have fun. We're off this weekend to attend our District Camporee, boys are excited, and there's not even any rain in the forcast!!

I want to add my 2 cents worth here...

First, how early is too early for Eagle? It would be too early if the young man were afraid to direct the work on thr project. To provide the LEADERSHIP it requires. To follow up with his peers to ensure his work parties are just that... work and fun. How old is that? I've seen 15 year olds sit for BoR that were ready, and 18 year olds that weren't... so age has NOTHING to do with it.

The story of my son (the 4th generation Eagle Scout in the family) was that he made Life 4 days past the minimum time limit, and then spent 3.5 years working on Eagle. He had time to earn a palm, but he earned both ranks. I didn't plant my foot in his seat and push him up the hill. (There were times I had to walk away and bite my lip, but I let him do his thing)

There were college applications that asked him if he was an Eagle Scout, that's true, but all they asked was, "Is he one?" They didn't seem to care when it was earned. These applications also asked about leadership opportunities, and service involvement. I understand from another young man that the Service Academies ask for date of Eagle. But I don't think they throw it out if it's during Junior High, rather than High School.

I would have your parents slow these boys, if that's what they want to do, but I would also caution, that in my case had I slowed my son down, I wonder if he would have made it? Just a thought...

I love this forum, you get so many different people talking about what they council/districts do so those of us that do it for our council/districts get ideas on what is happening.

I have never had a canidate tell me he didn't have a believe in God. I have had some talk about how they are trying to figure out how they feel about it. I have had some tell me their family doesn't attend church regularly, and had those young men tell me that they don't think church attendance is a way to show reverence. I have had young men that were refused for advancement get glowing letters from their church leaders, that reflect the fact that these leaders had no idea who the young man was.

If a young man sat on the other end of my BoR table, and tell me that his family handles church at home (for whatever reason), I would not even bat an eye. I would ask him about his religious involvement and why he thinks it matters to the BSA.

I really don't think it matters what involvement is occuring, I think it matters that our Eagles feel they are religious (which may be a subtle difference, but a very valid one)

Good luck with this. You know a phone call to the person that does my task, with an explanation may go a long way in smoothing the road...

Hi,

Our troop's favorite brand for the budget group is Hi-Teck. You can pick them up at many sporting goods stores.

Also have a look at REI.com (go to their clearance areas) & Cabelas.com (I can never remember if it's one or two 'l's)

You'll find something, it'll be good!

As was mentioned Campmor has good stuff too. Good luck!

VegasDJ,

I can tell from your post that you and are have the same chartered organization for our units. Just another point...

When (notice I didn't say IF) you earn your Adult On My Honor Award, go get the reverse knot (purple on silver), and pat yourself on the back for me

Thumper

I saw this a lot a while ago... Have to admit when I was a scoutmaster most of my troop was under this program. Since I have a white square knot, you can draw your own conclusions (this worked several times). Then in California the laws regarding when teenagers can have others in their cars changed, and changed the way kids (both boys and girls) looked at their licenses. Now the carrot doesn't hold the claim to "freedom" it once did.

My son a fourth generation Eagle Scout knew that we (his parents) would help with his car, as soon as he couldn't be distracted from finishing his Eagle by what are natural, normal, appropriate reactions of driving. You say that to hold this out is a way to "force scouts out," well let's see... he's an ASM, has sat on Eagle Boards, is a Merit Badge Counselor, has two palms, loves his car... and in his spare time is the perfect young man (just ask his dad) Just another example to muddy the picture...

As I read all your examples and data I began to understand something. I think you may have pulled your Troop Guides too soon...

Either that, or we keep them way too long. We don't have problems like you described. We run aged based patrols, and are VERY happy with that. We use the Troop Guide as a position of honor among the Scouts, and we aren't in a hurry to get them out of the NSP. We also run advancement campouts that help get the scout not only rank advanced BUT skill advanced as well. Our adults are always trying new food, and cooking ideas. It's not unusual for our 12 - 13 year old to know all about the "D word" (you know Dutch right?) that helps food alot.

Sorry to do this to you, BUT there are lots of ways to get where we are going, please don't just try and pin everything on one idea... If it works this way for you GREAT, but if it doesn't, there may be other reasons for it not to function.

CHEERS!!

As one of the "big guns" in my council for Venturing, maybe I can shed some light on what has already been posted.

There have been at least 3 courses for Venture Leader Specific Training. The first one stated that Venturers could not be members in OA nor wear their flaps if they were a member before the joined Venturing. The second course didn't come out and say this, and the third course reversed the position. So if a poster tells you that Venturers can/can't be involved they are telling you what they were told in training.

The current stand is while venturers do not elect members, if they are under 18 they can be involved if already a member. If over 18 they can be involved in OA as adult members. Clear as mud now, right?

So yes you can jointly register, and in fact that might be a good idea, and yes you can be involved even if you aren't jointly registered...

Sounds like things are progressing well... Now let's review what the handbook says...

"5. While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project should benefit an organization other than Boy Scouting.) The project idea must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your Scoutmaster and troop committee, and the council or district before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, BSA publication No. 18-927B, in meeting this requirement."

Notice the time frame? Your son is jumping the gun. No big deal, but don't get too much done, or in good faith he may disqualify himself since work started before it should. And would be a shame that such a great project will be left for someone else to do, since he started early.

There were some questions about fund raising, yes those hours spent fund raising can be included. No there isn't a formula that only 25% or any percent of the time should be used in fund raising. Just keep in mind that Eagle Projects are NOT fund raising projects (as was so wonderfully pointed out earlier with the comment about raising money for disaster relief would not be an approvable fund raiser.)

Perhaps one of the hardest things about chairing Eagle Boards is that there really isn't a check list from National that says anything resembling "An Eagle Scout is..." or "A Proper Project consists of..." or is it one of the best things about chairing Eagle Boards is there really isn't a check list? That way kids get to be creative, and what they come up with is amazing. I still think about the young man that the night he finished Life (about the same time as he was sitting for his Board) his dad was dieing of a heart attack. His project was to build a reflective walk for the cemetary, it took forever (over 2 years), but he did it, and it was his, and it helped him heal.

In other posts I've stated that I conduct Eagle Boards of Review. As someone that my council turns to when it comes to answering the question "Is this scout an Eagle?" let me shed some light on what we look at...

We don't really look at age. I've seen 18 year olds that are clueless, I've had sharp 14 year old sit across our table, age has NOTHING to do with maturity. We talk up the idea that one of the main purposes of the Eagle LEADERSHIP Service Project is where I placed the emphasis (did you notice all the capital letters?). Now with scouts that are younger it can be harder for them to demonstrate leadership. Not impossible, just harder. We talk with their leaders and help them learn that this is what we are looking for.

It is a real mistake to slow a scout down. My son was Star for 2 days longer than the minimum amount of time before he made Life. He was Life for nearly 4 years... He explored all sorts of things, he and I are both glad he did. His delay cost him this one detail. He only got one palm (the old man didn't get any). On the other hand, he discovered he enjoys guitar, can play soccer, has fun memories of dating, and actually enjoys working on cars. He turned out fine, oh and by the way, he now sits on boards with the old man.

As someone that has done lots with Venture Patrols and Varisty Patrols as well as Crews & Teams... let me tell you what happens in my Council.

The Venture and Varsity Patrol program was merged and is now just listed as Varsity Patrol information. The Letter is now only for Varsity Patrols or Varsity Teams (remember a Team is a seperate unit like a Pack or a Troop). I called the distribution office and asked if I could order Varsity Letters and was told that yes I could and the clerk was nice enough to offer to send me Varsity pins to go with that letter. My local office also stocks several Varisty Program books.

Hope this helps!

John,

Nice post, may I correct one thing? As for working on old requirements, the standard is that a Scout SHOULD use the requirements that are current at the time. Once he has started the work these requirements don't change for him (even if National does). I don't have enough information from CNYScouter to be able to say if his son is OK with work already done. I totally agree with everything else you have said. I must admit that if I (as a MB counselor) cam across this lad, I would be sure to make it known what he need to do, and what was complete. If I didn't have the existing blue card because some *&%#$ (let's just say person) took it from him and wouldn't return it I'd try hard to ensure he didn't have to redo that work (assuming he had evidence of doing the work)

Good Luck with this!

What are you worried about?

Places to see? (See it all!)

Places to camp? (Most campsites that aren't wilderness are just public sights, and as those go really depend on those sharing your campground)

How to get around? (Do you want to see it all a little, or see a little of it in detail? One way says get a car, the other says get a wilderness pass)

You want to stop by the Wolf Reserve in West Yellowstone (outside of park, seperate admission, zoo like setting... cool place)

Fun? Oh yeah... Scout camps close, oh yes (check your Council's version of the National Camp Directory) Look for camps in Wyoming, or Montana.

My best advice? Get away from Old Faithful complex (after you visit there... You are going to check that area out right?) Get off the paved roads and have some fun in the dirt ones. This is a GREAT place, BUT you HAVE to get away from the TOURISTS... Have fun!!

Hi,

I have been a Patrol Guide twice. First time my patrol gave me their patrol flag stavem (that was too much, but I didn't want to give it back to them... They were being way to generous) As they have received their beads I have brought the stave with me and they get a smile out of it. Second patrol gave me a Norman Rockwell reprint (from Scout Cat.) They all signed the back. It's not one of the HUGE prints, just a little something. I had it framed, and it's in my office. I enjoy it. It works well for me.

You need to do the hard part... Find out from your guide what they like and what they think is too much. I appreciate the thoughtfulness both times, I appreciate the memories. I like the fact that when I walk down the street people stop and thank me... That means alot more to me that lots of other things.

When I meet with a Scout as we start any Merit Badge I ask him a question, "Do you know the difference between a badge and a patch?"

We discuss things until they get that a badge is earned through completion of requirements. I then ask them if they are interested in merit patches or Merit Badges? I almost always find that this five minute "Discovery Experience" helps them understand the difference between working together and copying anothers work. I invite them to try and ensure that they earn the badge, not just collect the patch.

I get to chair Eagle Boards for my district, let me shed some light on this. The Eagle Scout Leadership Service Packet (you know the official manual?) states that the project should be substantial (I'm paraphrasing, but that's close)

Our council sounds like many of yours, we look at about 100 man hours to be an indication of a substantial project. One of the things that appears lost on many people however is that it is a REAL opportunity to demonstrate leadership on the part of the Scout. Therefore project with 100 hours that are mainly adult hours may need more time since it is hard to direct adults (don't believe me, ask any District Training Chairman, or maybe even a UC)

Hope this helps...

Nice posts, let me introduce our troop twist...

The menu has to be approved by certain adults before the shopping trip. These adults don't fall for the "But Mr. Thumper as we all know Ketchup is made from tomatoes and spice. We all know tomatoes are vegies, therefor we should be able to count ketchup as a vegie!" logic.

We seen all sorts of good food happen for the under $20.00 per boy for the weekend. When we can't get kids off the Noodle meals, we let the adult group grub master know. He then finds a REAL nice D.O. lunch, that will smell really nice. This almost always brings the nood crowd around. We smile at them and tell them we can help them prepare for the next camp out after we get home... (We don't say "Get those noodles away from my meal", but we think it.)

Wow this is where a buddy and I found ourselves 8 years ago. I met him through his wife, we were both Unit Commissioners. He started a troop, and asked me to come too. He's the SM, I've been MC, ASM, CC for him.

When we started the boys had no idea what to do, so WE (the woodbadge trained adults SM/ASM) bought a ball cap style hat, and campaign hats (yes it was expensive, but IT WORKED). As we played the roles of SPL/ASPL we wore our ball caps (gee does that sound like the old Woodbadge course?) when we acted like adults we either didn't wear a hat, or wore our "Smokey's". We told the boys we didn't want to wear their hats, so we encouraged them to wear them instead. We held JLT and worked for about a year... We did all we could to try and wear our smokeys or no hat at all for an entire month, eventually we were able to do that.

Now after 2 trips to Philmont, 1 trip to Sea Base, 1 trip to Northern Tier (with another one in the works for 2006), 8 different summer camps, and 16 Eagle Scouts later... our 40 Scout 20 Adult troop expect us to continue like this forever since we've always been here... We just look at each other and remember the good old days!

Good Luck with the best parts of Scouting! You'll look back at this and smile, hones...

In my unit we run a venturing patrol. Now I know this isn't exactly right, but it works for us. What we do is allow the older boys from all the other patrols to come together as part of the venture patrol. This patrol functions seperately from other patrols. It really gets formed about March, and functions until the summer high adventure activity.

You might ask what kinds of activities it's done. We've only gone to Philmont twice, Northern Tier, Sea Base, hicked rim to rim in the Grand Canyon, climbed Mt Shasta, white watered on the Russian River.

We tried to run the venturing patrol as a completely stand alone unit, but it just didn't work for us. So every March, we start talking about what is happening this summer, and what to look for next summer. From an adult standpoint it works well, oh and by the way, we have had several boys turn 18, and then become ASM because they aren't ready to leave the troop yet.

Happy scouting. I'm sure you'll find a way to use this concept just like we found a way, even if it's not the SAME way.

Hi! Welcome to the forums, and welcome to Scouting.

I volunteer as a trainer and understand where you are coming from. My wife doesn't do scouting, she helps me do scouting. She doesn't like to camp, but helps me get my stuff together to go. She never complains about me going and doing, she likes to think about my motto. See we have things in common.

Now what can you do? Not a flip answer, a serious question. What would you like to do?

Maybe the place to start is with New Leader Essentials. This will give you an over view of all that Scouting is. It should only take two hours to present (before I get jumped on, I know the course says about 90 minutes, but what about the parking lot meeting after the class?)

Don't be concerned if all that really does is wet your appitite for more (if that's what happens, the staff did their job). The more you might like is Cub Leader Specific Training. I would suggest that you take the Committee track of the course. (I'm suggesting that because the task you did for him was more a committee type of function, I'm guessing more like a commitee secretary role.)

Hope this helps. Oh before I forget, see if this wraps up you and your husband's feelings about Cubs.

100 years from now it won't matter what type of car I drove, what color my house was, or what car I drove. However the world may be a very different place because I was important in the life of a boy.

You can twist this and make it about you, or you supporting your husband. You guys are starting a great journey that will bring many rewards down the road. I wish you both the best with your journey. I hope it turns out as rewarding as mine was.

I have chaired an event for Boy Scouts for many years. We get 300 Scouts from around the Council and hold a series of classes for them. These classes take place on three consecutive Saturday mornings. My point here is to let you know how we handle smoking in front of the boys.

At the first opening ceremony during the announcements, I read the statement regarding smoking in front of youth (notice it doesn't say Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, Venturers, it says youth?). I then let them know that the smoking area is across the street behind a group of tennis courts.

As for non-sublings being in the same tent, don't let the camp staff at Northern Tier, Sea Base, or Philmont know this. You probably will cause problems there. Also you need to be sure not to let most of the camp staffs from the various council camps around the country. I'm sure we could change what is taught in national camp school.

Oh wait, could it be that this policy was misquoted? You decide, there should be no ADULTS sleeping in a tent unless all the youth in the tent are family members with the adult. So close on the party, so close. The young man that posted earlier needs to know that if he wants to come to California, we'd love to have an ASM with his head on so well.